Tempe Development Thread

[HX_Guy]

New "Sam Fox-type" restaurant is already in the works for the Monti's space...

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/b...anned-for.html

I hope it's an actual Sam Fox restaurant, and not just a "type"...I love all his restaurants and would actually go there whereas I haven't had any desire to go to Monti's (been there once a long time ago, wasn't impressed with the food, didn't go back).

[combusean]

For what it's worth, Onyx had 196 units vs this one having 256.

Even aside from the sixty additional units in the new iteration of that lot, rented units will do FAR more for density and neighborhood vitality than a flashy condo tower that has a bunch of wealthy empty-nesters and people with second homes.

[azsunsurfer]

^ Thank you! Besides younger renters tend to be more "pedestrian" than older wealthier empty nesters.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

^ Thank you! Besides younger renters tend to be more "pedestrian" than older wealthier empty nesters.

True, and studies show that residents have more of a connection to the street in midrises than in high rises; that's why I think these heights are important in areas like Farmer and Apache.

But,Playa del Norte is already a car-oriented development in an area of town that is far from mass transit access; I'd still rather see a tower in this location than the slightly denser midrise for the facts that:
1) visually and aesthetically, I think both Playa del Norte and Town Lake need a high rise to provide definition amongst all of the development that is of similar height
2) Tempe has developed very few condos downtown that are really aimed at wealthy empty nesters; don't you think that's an important demographic to have in order to balance out the seasonality of such a high student base and allow for the support of additional retail throughout town?
3) No market rate or owner-occupied towers have been developed in downtown Tempe, period. Maybe this could have sparked some additional height in future proposals, rather than the same old 4-6 stories?

It's of course better than an empty lot. And, I of course like the fact that it's built up to the streets and lake without setbacks even if the walkability of the area is low. But, there's finite lake land and with much of it probably being dedicated to midrises within the Stadium District, it would've been nice to have seen something tall here is all.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

It's of course better than an empty lot. And, I of course like the fact that it's built up to the streets and lake without setbacks even if the walkability of the area is low. But, there's finite lake land and with much of it probably being dedicated to midrises within the Stadium District, it would've been nice to have seen something tall here is all.

I believe the other remaining lot is slated for a 10 story office, but that has not gone anywhere. I am guessing nobody seems to want a view of the freeway and power lines, so they seem to have been unsuccessful in recruiting tenants to start construction.

I think one of the real shames here is the In-N-Out and the strip of retail. How great would this area look if that retail was all placed on the first story of a condo/apartment tower in the 15-20 story range, then the other buildings cascade down toward the lake. Especially if that 10-story tower happens near the power lines.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I believe the other remaining lot is slated for a 10 story office, but that has not gone anywhere. I am guessing nobody seems to want a view of the freeway and power lines, so they seem to have been unsuccessful in recruiting tenants to start construction.

I think one of the real shames here is the In-N-Out and the strip of retail. How great would this area look if that retail was all placed on the first story of a condo/apartment tower in the 15-20 story range, then the other buildings cascade down toward the lake. Especially if that 10-story tower happens near the power lines.

I believe the power lines are to blame for the retail strip being so low. For an auto-oriented strip mall, I think the design is rather decent and it least has 2nd story offices, but yes of course at least a few more floors of either offices or condos/lofts would've been great.

[Spitfiredude]

I'll take an IN-N-OUT over a high rise any day..and I'm not being sarcastic lol.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

True, and studies show that residents have more of a connection to the street in midrises than in high rises; that's why I think these heights are important in areas like Farmer and Apache.

But,Playa del Norte is already a car-oriented development in an area of town that is far from mass transit access; I'd still rather see a tower in this location than the slightly denser midrise for the facts that:
1) visually and aesthetically, I think both Playa del Norte and Town Lake need a high rise to provide definition amongst all of the development that is of similar height
2) Tempe has developed very few condos downtown that are really aimed at wealthy empty nesters; don't you think that's an important demographic to have in order to balance out the seasonality of such a high student base and allow for the support of additional retail throughout town?
3) No market rate or owner-occupied towers have been developed in downtown Tempe, period. Maybe this could have sparked some additional height in future proposals, rather than the same old 4-6 stories?

It's of course better than an empty lot. And, I of course like the fact that it's built up to the streets and lake without setbacks even if the walkability of the area is low. But, there's finite lake land and with much of it probably being dedicated to midrises within the Stadium District, it would've been nice to have seen something tall here is all.

I think you're convoluting student housing with rental housing. Student housing is designed to be empty 3 months out of the year and caters to kids without a high disposable income. This will be a complex that is leased to full-time residents, and likely judging by its proposed rents, will cater to younger adults that will actually live there full time and have money to spend.

The previous boom told us the market for owner-occupied high-rise housing just isn't that deep in the Valley, especially Tempe. New high-rises are MUCH more expensive to build in the Phoenix area and sell than existing single family homes. In cities where single family homes cost more than new condos, it makes sense to stack people up in highrises. But that's not the case here. So the product ends up only appealing to people who pay a premium for a view with a lock-and-leave lifestyle over a cheaper property that has space for kids to run around. That's either empty-nesters (the type that just aren't going to be out and about in bars and clubs filled with college students) or straight people that have decided they don't want kids (Tempe isn't gay friendly, so you lose out on that subsegment), a rarity in a family-oriented metropolitan area.

Lastly, Tempe just isn't that a luxurious of an area--it lacks the high end shopping in Scottsdale and the immediate vicinity and the performance and sporting venues in Downtown Phoenix.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by combusean

I think you're convoluting student housing with rental housing. Student housing is designed to be empty 3 months out of the year and caters to kids without a high disposable income. This will be a complex that is leased to full-time residents, and likely judging by its proposed rents, will cater to younger adults that will actually live there full time and have money to spend.

The previous boom told us the market for owner-occupied high-rise housing just isn't that deep in the Valley, especially Tempe. New high-rises are MUCH more expensive to build in the Phoenix area and sell than existing single family homes. In cities where single family homes cost more than new condos, it makes sense to stack people up in highrises. But that's not the case here. So the product ends up only appealing to people who pay a premium for a view with a lock-and-leave lifestyle over a cheaper property that has space for kids to run around. That's either empty-nesters (the type that just aren't going to be out and about in bars and clubs filled with college students) or straight people that have decided they don't want kids (Tempe isn't gay friendly, so you lose out on that subsegment), a rarity in a family-oriented metropolitan area.

Lastly, Tempe just isn't that a luxurious of an area--it lacks the high end shopping in Scottsdale and the immediate vicinity and the performance and sporting venues in Downtown Phoenix.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I tend to think the notion that high-rise condos will be be built downtown to be pretty naive. I guess my hope was that the lake would be attractive to empty-nester since it's a relatively different scene than downtown. It's closer to freeways, has access to Scottsdale, offers rare natural views, etc. W6 also has proven that high rise living is in demand in the rental segment... I don't doubt that a luxury high rise rental at this location would rent out fairly quickly. Seeing that neither of these points was enough to attract a high rise is a disappointing in that it means high rise residential just isn't coming to Tempe, period, at least during this wave. That doesn't bode well for parcels along Ash or M7, since the hotel and office markets seem to be reaching saturation.

The only thing I disagree with is your first point: "I think you're convoluting student housing with rental housing. Student housing is designed to be empty 3 months out of the year and caters to kids without a high disposable income. This will be a complex that is leased to full-time residents, and likely judging by its proposed rents, will cater to younger adults that will actually live there full time and have money to spend."

I understand this is the goal, but in Tempe, nearly any rental complex this close to campus is going to be largely student-oriented. Even NorthShore, which were sold as condos, have been filled with students from investors who rented out their units. It'd be interesting to see data, and I hope you're right that it will attract young professionals as opposed to students. Tempe is a college town - nothing wrong with student housing - but it seems to have goals that are attainable only if they achieve an appropriate balance.

[TempeSilverFox]

Originally Posted by combusean

That's either empty-nesters (the type that just aren't going to be out and about in bars and clubs filled with college students) or straight people that have decided they don't want kids (Tempe isn't gay friendly, so you lose out on that subsegment), a rarity in a family-oriented metropolitan area.

I have to respectfully disagree about Tempe not being gay friendly. I am gay, and Tempe is probably one of the MOST gay friendly cities in our state - right there with Tucson, Bisbee, Flagstaff and Central Phoenix. I think there are FAR more LGBT residents in Tempe than you may think...
While Tempe lacks any specifically gay oriented bars or clubs, the city has gone out of its way to embrace the LGBT community, being one of the very first to extend benefits to domestic partners and to pass anti-discrimination clauses.
Tempe was also home to one of the first openly gay mayors of any sizable city in US history- Neil Giuliano. Not only did he come out while in office, he was overwhelmingly voted to STAY in office by Tempe voters when an unsuccessful bid to recall him was launched in 2001.
Tempe also was one of the very first cities in the valley to open and maintain an office devoted to marketing the city to LGBT couples for tourism and relocation.

I moved to Tempe in 2005 from the North Park / Hillcrest area of San Diego and I was struck by the lack of a dense or easily recognizable "Gayborhood" in the Phoenix area. Even Central Phoenix is barely a blip on the radar compared to Hillcrest. So when I moved here, I looked around and found that Tempe actually boasted FAR more to offer than Central Phoenix in terms of a sustainable, walkable and urban experience and I found that attitudes in Tempe were not only tolerant but embracing.
The liberal college, free-thinking atmosphere of ASU occasionally butts heads with the beer can crushing against the forehead morons found on Mill Avenue most weekend nights, but overall - I have never once felt unwelcome or out of place within the social fabric of Tempe.

Another thing to consider is that as being gay becomes less and less of a big deal in our country, there is less and less of a need for the LGBT community to seek refuge together in common geographies. This trend has already begun to be documented in other cities- including San Diego. This means that LGBT individuals are being attracted to and are integrating into areas where there are attractive amenities or even good school districts - now that gay marriage is being legalized in so many states, more and more couples that I know are getting married and looking to possibly adopt kids. Tempe boasts a very attractive lifestyle and central location, good restaurants and close proximity to all that Scottsdale and Central Phoenix have to offer. I myself am perfectly happy to hang out on Mill with my friends (gay and straight) and enjoy happy hour and the exciting atmosphere our downtown has to offer and I wouldn't trade my proximity to Town Lake and the bike trails for any other spot in the valley.

On a totally different subject...

I'm often surprised by the number of comments on this blog that express dismay or disbelief that Tempe and Phoenix's skylines are not significantly more impressive than they are. And I know this is a skyscraper blog- and we are all aficionados of the architectural form and want them to be everywhere... but the fact of the matter is that skyscrapers are usually very expensive to build and are usually a result of very expensive and very scarce land. These are two qualities that the Phoenix area just does not possess.

Expensive for Phoenix is still a BARGAIN compared to most major cities. Think about it: New York, Chicago, San Diego, San Francisco, Miami, Honolulu, Boston, Seattle - these are all cities either on the coast or on a lake. Land is scarce, people want to be there. Major corporations seek these places out for headquarters. Single family homes are astronomical so the only option is to build UP.
Phoenix on the other hand is mostly flat and is surrounded by hundreds of miles of emptiness that could in theory be transformed into more and more city. There is no scarcity to the land that can be developed on the outskirts of our town (unless we decide to go the route of Oregon and create self-imposed "Growth Boundaries" to stop sprawl- but given our state's mentality- I doubt this will ever happen...)
It sometimes amazes me that downtown Phoenix has a skyline at all. There are very few major companies headquartered in Arizona, so few high-end corporate type jobs. I know their city leaders have been desperately trying to build a thriving downtown and they are showing some signs of success - it's WAY better now than it was in 2005 when I moved here.

Tempe's skyline benefits from the fact that our city is central to the entire metro area, it's landlocked between other cities, downtown's geography and of course by the enormous economic and academic behemoth of the Tempe ASU campus- not to mention a City Council that has been pro-density over the last several decades.
OUR land IS scarce and our downtown is pushed against Town Lake to the north and ASU to the east. The Riverside/Sunset neighborhood to the west of downtown is benefiting from the gentrification and is now home to several really cool town homes and brownstones. To the south and south west/ east - there are historic preservation neighborhoods (Maple/Ash and Mitchell Park etc.) and there are limits to what can be done to some of the homes there.

This has the effect of creating a microcosm of land scarcity around Mill and along the lake shore. But make no mistake, Tempe is NOT a San Diego - nor will it ever be. Skyscraper construction - and even design will always be dictated by market forces / demand. Most of our skyscrapers look boxy and unimaginative because sleek, super cool glassy ones cost FAR more to build and would only be needed/ feasible on small, very expensive plots of land.
The Phoenix metro area's relatively inexpensive land and lack of demand for loads of high density structures sadly don't command the same eye-popping architecture that we see in many of our peer cities.

I think we can all agree that Tempe is doing about the best it possibly could - and probably far better than anyone would have ever thought possible given the hand it was dealt. For a relatively small city, Tempe has a pretty incredible skyline already - with more on the way! Some of our buildings (Hayden Ferry Lakeside comes to mind) are beautiful! As is the Tempe Center for the Arts! Heck I even like the new State Farm retro 60s/ 70s look and US Airways curved roof isn't all that bad.

I love the enthusiasm I see on this blog all the time, and I'm not meaning to sound like I'm trying to "school" anyone, I just wanted to put things into perspective. I'm totally open to hear your thoughts on what I've said. I love this blog and so appreciate the contributions that everyone leaves! I'm always "In the know" thanks to you guys! Please keep it up!!!

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by TempeSilverFox

I have to respectfully disagree about Tempe not being gay friendly. I am gay, and Tempe is probably one of the MOST gay friendly cities in our state - right there with Tucson, Bisbee, Flagstaff and Central Phoenix. I think there are FAR more LGBT residents in Tempe than you may think...
While Tempe lacks any specifically gay oriented bars or clubs, the city has gone out of its way to embrace the LGBT community, being one of the very first to extend benefits to domestic partners and to pass anti-discrimination clauses.
Tempe was also home to one of the first openly gay mayors of any sizable city in US history- Neil Giuliano. Not only did he come out while in office, he was overwhelmingly voted to STAY in office by Tempe voters when an unsuccessful bid to recall him was launched in 2001.
Tempe also was one of the very first cities in the valley to open and maintain an office devoted to marketing the city to LGBT couples for tourism and relocation.

I moved to Tempe in 2005 from the North Park / Hillcrest area of San Diego and I was struck by the lack of a dense or easily recognizable "Gayborhood" in the Phoenix area. Even Central Phoenix is barely a blip on the radar compared to Hillcrest. So when I moved here, I looked around and found that Tempe actually boasted FAR more to offer than Central Phoenix in terms of a sustainable, walkable and urban experience and I found that attitudes in Tempe were not only tolerant but embracing.
The liberal college, free-thinking atmosphere of ASU occasionally butts heads with the beer can crushing against the forehead morons found on Mill Avenue most weekend nights, but overall - I have never once felt unwelcome or out of place within the social fabric of Tempe.

Another thing to consider is that as being gay becomes less and less of a big deal in our country, there is less and less of a need for the LGBT community to seek refuge together in common geographies. This trend has already begun to be documented in other cities- including San Diego. This means that LGBT individuals are being attracted to and are integrating into areas where there are attractive amenities or even good school districts - now that gay marriage is being legalized in so many states, more and more couples that I know are getting married and looking to possibly adopt kids. Tempe boasts a very attractive lifestyle and central location, good restaurants and close proximity to all that Scottsdale and Central Phoenix have to offer. I myself am perfectly happy to hang out on Mill with my friends (gay and straight) and enjoy happy hour and the exciting atmosphere our downtown has to offer and I wouldn't trade my proximity to Town Lake and the bike trails for any other spot in the valley.

On a totally different subject...

I'm often surprised by the number of comments on this blog that express dismay or disbelief that Tempe and Phoenix's skylines are not significantly more impressive than they are. And I know this is a skyscraper blog- and we are all aficionados of the architectural form and want them to be everywhere... but the fact of the matter is that skyscrapers are usually very expensive to build and are usually a result of very expensive and very scarce land. These are two qualities that the Phoenix area just does not possess.

Expensive for Phoenix is still a BARGAIN compared to most major cities. Think about it: New York, Chicago, San Diego, San Francisco, Miami, Honolulu, Boston, Seattle - these are all cities either on the coast or on a lake. Land is scarce, people want to be there. Major corporations seek these places out for headquarters. Single family homes are astronomical so the only option is to build UP.
Phoenix on the other hand is mostly flat and is surrounded by hundreds of miles of emptiness that could in theory be transformed into more and more city. There is no scarcity to the land that can be developed on the outskirts of our town (unless we decide to go the route of Oregon and create self-imposed "Growth Boundaries" to stop sprawl- but given our state's mentality- I doubt this will ever happen...)
It sometimes amazes me that downtown Phoenix has a skyline at all. There are very few major companies headquartered in Arizona, so few high-end corporate type jobs. I know their city leaders have been desperately trying to build a thriving downtown and they are showing some signs of success - it's WAY better now than it was in 2005 when I moved here.

Tempe's skyline benefits from the fact that our city is central to the entire metro area, it's landlocked between other cities, downtown's geography and of course by the enormous economic and academic behemoth of the Tempe ASU campus- not to mention a City Council that has been pro-density over the last several decades.
OUR land IS scarce and our downtown is pushed against Town Lake to the north and ASU to the east. The Riverside/Sunset neighborhood to the west of downtown is benefiting from the gentrification and is now home to several really cool town homes and brownstones. To the south and south west/ east - there are historic preservation neighborhoods (Maple/Ash and Mitchell Park etc.) and there are limits to what can be done to some of the homes there.

This has the effect of creating a microcosm of land scarcity around Mill and along the lake shore. But make no mistake, Tempe is NOT a San Diego - nor will it ever be. Skyscraper construction - and even design will always be dictated by market forces / demand. Most of our skyscrapers look boxy and unimaginative because sleek, super cool glassy ones cost FAR more to build and would only be needed/ feasible on small, very expensive plots of land.
The Phoenix metro area's relatively inexpensive land and lack of demand for loads of high density structures sadly don't command the same eye-popping architecture that we see in many of our peer cities.

I think we can all agree that Tempe is doing about the best it possibly could - and probably far better than anyone would have ever thought possible given the hand it was dealt. For a relatively small city, Tempe has a pretty incredible skyline already - with more on the way! Some of our buildings (Hayden Ferry Lakeside comes to mind) are beautiful! As is the Tempe Center for the Arts! Heck I even like the new State Farm retro 60s/ 70s look and US Airways curved roof isn't all that bad.

I love the enthusiasm I see on this blog all the time, and I'm not meaning to sound like I'm trying to "school" anyone, I just wanted to put things into perspective. I'm totally open to hear your thoughts on what I've said. I love this blog and so appreciate the contributions that everyone leaves! I'm always "In the know" thanks to you guys! Please keep it up!!!

I agree - as a gay man - that Tempe was a very accepting city, but it lacks exactly what you mentioned in your post: a cluster of gay-oriented establishments and neighborhoods where gay people tend to settle. Phoenix, for as conservative as it can be, has several of these nodes: One Lexington is nearly 90% filled with LGBTQ residents, the Melrose area has attracted a lot of gay-led redevelopment, and one can easily ride the light rail from Roosevelt to Camelback and find several gay bars, boutiques, etc. Perhaps if downtown Tempe still had older building stock ripe for redevelopment in its historic areas, these kind of neighborhood would have developed. But, alas, they didn't.

As far as expectations, I think most understand the limitations of Phoenix. The major issues are the lack of high-paying jobs which causes a lack of demand for both Class A office and residential development for those who seek to live closer to their work. I don't think much of the complaining re: Phoenix development is regarding the want for skyscrapers. But, the development that does occur should still be held to a high standard to create a community and neighborhood that has the infrastructure and assets to be successful in the long-run, if Phoenix ever does attract additional workforce and wants to have a thriving downtown. Low-slung, shadeless, 1-use buildings are unacceptable in any metropolitan downtown. There seems to be far more concern about the built pedestrian environment than the height, unless it has to do with wanting increased density in areas where the City has landbanked empty lots.

Tempe is different, though, because it has the ideals and dreams of being more than just a suburb to Phoenix. Being landlocked, and having a defined central core with finite developable land means smart planning is crucial. This means that certain areas DO demand more height for it to succeed as a year-round city and not merely an October-June town.

[Spitfiredude]

I think Tempe for sure will be a really cool city in 10-15 years from now when all this development is finished. It will be interesting to see what they do with certain parcels of land once Tempe is land locked. I imagine some buildings will be demolished to make way for high rises (such as the one between Hayden Square and Gordon Biersch). I do agree with JJ on his comments a few months back that at what point do we need to realize that certain projects, such as Ash (if the 80' proposal proves accurate), are a waste of land. I think the direction right now (50% proposals mid rise, 50% high rise) is fine. I don't think the proposals at North College Ave and Onyx sites are bad. SALT is okay, but could have been better. I like that there is Marina Heights, Monti's site, USA place, etc. I think the Hanover site is not awful, but not a waste of land per-say. However, if we see an 80' project at Ash, that is probably a step back. Then again, if Whole Foods is a part of the project, is it worth the project to bring a grocer to downtown when no one else will? IDK. Its all debatable and everyone has their personal long term visions. That's why I like this thread.

As far as the gay issue, I think Tempe is for sure gay friendly. SilverFox already gave good points. Its also important to note that Phoenix rated as a top 10 gay friendly business city. Shocking? I think not. The gay life here in Phoenix area is for sure underrated; and the issue across the nation is becoming less and less of an issue. I believe 25 years from now, it won't even be debated on both sides. Its interesting to note that a SD area congressional district just elected a gay Republican. I think that right there shows that its becoming a dead issue.

[TempeSilverFox]

Originally Posted by Spitfiredude

Then again, if Whole Foods is a part of the project, is it worth the project to bring a grocer to downtown when no one else will? IDK. Its all debatable and everyone has their personal long term visions. That's why I like this thread.

As far as the gay issue, I think Tempe is for sure gay friendly. SilverFox already gave good points. Its also important to note that Phoenix rated as a top 10 gay friendly business city. Shocking? I think not. The gay life here in Phoenix area is for sure underrated; and the issue across the nation is becoming less and less of an issue. I believe 25 years from now, it won't even be debated on both sides. Its interesting to note that a SD area congressional district just elected a gay Republican. I think that right there shows that its becoming a dead issue.

I want SO badly for a grocery store to move in downtown!!! Jeez at this point, I would settle for a one story suburban style one haha! Just kidding...

Kyrsten Sinema (who is openly gay) just handily won her re-election bid for US Congressional House District 9 which includes most of Tempe, Ahwatukee, parts of Arcadia and Central Phoenix - so we are seeing examples even here in Arizona as well.

[TempeSilverFox]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

I agree - as a gay man - that Tempe was a very accepting city, but it lacks exactly what you mentioned in your post: a cluster of gay-oriented establishments and neighborhoods where gay people tend to settle. Phoenix, for as conservative as it can be, has several of these nodes: One Lexington is nearly 90% filled with LGBTQ residents, the Melrose area has attracted a lot of gay-led redevelopment, and one can easily ride the light rail from Roosevelt to Camelback and find several gay bars, boutiques, etc. Perhaps if downtown Tempe still had older building stock ripe for redevelopment in its historic areas, these kind of neighborhood would have developed. But, alas, they didn't.

As far as expectations, I think most understand the limitations of Phoenix. The major issues are the lack of high-paying jobs which causes a lack of demand for both Class A office and residential development for those who seek to live closer to their work. I don't think much of the complaining re: Phoenix development is regarding the want for skyscrapers. But, the development that does occur should still be held to a high standard to create a community and neighborhood that has the infrastructure and assets to be successful in the long-run, if Phoenix ever does attract additional workforce and wants to have a thriving downtown. Low-slung, shadeless, 1-use buildings are unacceptable in any metropolitan downtown. There seems to be far more concern about the built pedestrian environment than the height, unless it has to do with wanting increased density in areas where the City has landbanked empty lots.

Tempe is different, though, because it has the ideals and dreams of being more than just a suburb to Phoenix. Being landlocked, and having a defined central core with finite developable land means smart planning is crucial. This means that certain areas DO demand more height for it to succeed as a year-round city and not merely an October-June town.

I know of at least one attempt to open a gay bar in Tempe. It was a few years back, located at Scottsdale and Curry (just north of Town Lake in what was an old strip mall with a Lifetime Fitness.) It was only open for about a year or so at the most. I think with BS West up the road in Scottsdale, it didn't really stand a chance...

I don't think we will see the establishment of new gayborhoods going forward for all of the reasons I called out in my other post. Younger LGBT individuals are coming of age at a time when majority of the US population is either affirming or at least tolerant of them, so there is no longer a compelling need to band together in close proximity for safety and community like there was for previous generations.

The areas you spoke of: Central Phoenix, Melrose etc. are the remnants of Phoenix's old gayborhood; it's very own Hillcrest, Boystown, Castro etc. It would make sense that these would be the continuing concentrations of gay oriented businesses.

Younger LGBT and even those of us who are a bit older are probably no longer feeling as awkward about ourselves (if we ever did) amongst our straight peers, so consequently- we are branching out, we are integrating within a broader geography- away from the traditional gay strongholds. As far as gay oriented retail - well, online shopping may be responsible for the decline in brick and mortar locations... especially some of the... ahem... "accessories" that one may purchase at some of these establishments... haha!!! Why not buy them from the privacy of your own home?
And we ALL know what the internet has done for the world of dating...

I'm a good example of this new trend I guess. When I first moved to Phoenix- I looked at Central Phoenix as a living option, and decided I didn't like it. Tempe was FAR more appealing for my out-doorsy, pedestrian and bike oriented way of thinking, so to Tempe I moved!

[Jjs5056]

This is going way too off-topic, so will be my last post on it: but, you can't use your own anecdotal stories of evidence of any nationwide trend. I'm 26 years old with friends who have been out for 10+ years and you're underestimating the struggles gay people still endure and the safety net that areas like Hillcrest, Boystown, etc. provide just as organizations like HRC do. Each and every one of my friends that has moved has gone to a city with a known 'gayborhood,' and considered that a high priority when determining where to go. Just because gays can integrate into society more than they could in the past doesn't mean that they'll discontinue the want to live with/around people similar to them. Just as certain areas are black, Mexican, snowbirds, etc. Beyond safety, it's just nice to be in a community of people like yourself. That's great that you have found that in Tempe.

As for Phoenix's own gayborhoods, Soleri once commented that it was actually McDowell that was the original until the 10 cut through town. Now, there are small pockets throughout the city which was nice, but it still would be better from a personal and economic standpoint (tourism, for one) to have a concentrated, walkable urban area that has boutique shopping, gay bars, dance clubs, boutique hotels and the like.

Lastly, saying that being gay is becoming a dead issue simply because it isn't being used to fire up political bases on either side is unfair to the thousands who still experience discrimination, to those who work in states where they can be fired solely for being, to those who still can't legally marry their partners, etc.

Back to actual development disucssion:

I think Tempe for sure will be a really cool city in 10-15 years from now when all this development is finished. It will be interesting to see what they do with certain parcels of land once Tempe is land locked. I imagine some buildings will be demolished to make way for high rises (such as the one between Hayden Square and Gordon Biersch). I do agree with JJ on his comments a few months back that at what point do we need to realize that certain projects, such as Ash (if the 80' proposal proves accurate), are a waste of land. I think the direction right now (50% proposals mid rise, 50% high rise) is fine. I don't think the proposals at North College Ave and Onyx sites are bad. SALT is okay, but could have been better. I like that there is Marina Heights, Monti's site, USA place, etc. I think the Hanover site is not awful, but not a waste of land per-say. However, if we see an 80' project at Ash, that is probably a step back. Then again, if Whole Foods is a part of the project, is it worth the project to bring a grocer to downtown when no one else will? IDK. Its all debatable and everyone has their personal long term visions. That's why I like this thread.

The problem is that the proposals really aren't 50/50. Aside from Marina Heights, UH2 and Monti's, there haven't been any high rise proposals aside from the "future" Ash/5th. Tempe is a cool city because of what it accomplishes on the ground level; Mill Ave is urban because of shade, walkability, human-scaled buildings, etc. not because of any high rises. But, the retail scene is hugely bar/restaurant-focused because of the lack of permanent resident base that can afford/or needs goods and services like groceries, hardware, etc. That's why I argue for higher development in key areas, and especially mixed use development so that there is 1) the population density needed to support retail and 2) the infrastructure in place for when that critical mass is reached. The light rail has transformed Apache, but single-use buildings will undo all progress that has been made. Yes, more attractive structures will line the road, but if you can't hop on the light rail 1 or 2 stops and pick up milk and eggs, what's the point?

It's the same thing with Hanover. Great things are happening on College Ave and Farmer - not in high rises, but on the ground - and 5th Street is the one opportunity to connect all those pieces. Hanover not only wasted a parcel that could handle high rise development (far enough away from residential neighborhoods, next to W6, already zoned, etc.), it created a single-use dead zone that lessens the walkability factor of 5th Street and failed to complement the retail plaza created by W6. I think that's a massive failure.

As for a grocery store, it will come when the demographics are there. Obviously, they still feel there are too many seasonal renters in the proximity of downtown to handle a full-sized store. I have to think the tipping point is close and that a tower above a grocery store would do the trick... but, I will certainly not support a stubby development on the Ash/University intersection.

[TempeSilverFox]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

This is going way too off-topic, so will be my last post on it: but, you can't use your own anecdotal stories of evidence of any nationwide trend. I'm 26 years old with friends who have been out for 10+ years and you're underestimating the struggles gay people still endure and the safety net that areas like Hillcrest, Boystown, etc. provide just as organizations like HRC do. Each and every one of my friends that has moved has gone to a city with a known 'gayborhood,' and considered that a high priority when determining where to go. Just because gays can integrate into society more than they could in the past doesn't mean that they'll discontinue the want to live with/around people similar to them. Just as certain areas are black, Mexican, snowbirds, etc. Beyond safety, it's just nice to be in a community of people like yourself. That's great that you have found that in Tempe.

As for Phoenix's own gayborhoods, Soleri once commented that it was actually McDowell that was the original until the 10 cut through town. Now, there are small pockets throughout the city which was nice, but it still would be better from a personal and economic standpoint (tourism, for one) to have a concentrated, walkable urban area that has boutique shopping, gay bars, dance clubs, boutique hotels and the like.

Lastly, saying that being gay is becoming a dead issue simply because it isn't being used to fire up political bases on either side is unfair to the thousands who still experience discrimination, to those who work in states where they can be fired solely for being, to those who still can't legally marry their partners, etc.

I don't view this as going off topic. A point was raised that "Tempe is not gay friendly" and thus looses out on a population that would be more inclined to live in dense, urban housing / skyscrapers.
Social trends and development are 100% linked together. How many times do we see blurbs in the news discussing how the Millennials prefer living in the center of town, how they aren't buying cars etc. These preferences are changing the way our cities will look going forward. And it just so happens that many LGBT individuals share some of these preferences. The gayborhoods of most cities tend to be some of the more dense/ walkable areas of town.

I wasn't saying that gayborhoods are no longer important - but I do not believe we will see NEW ones being formed going forward. I could be wrong, but as social attitudes continue to shift towards the positive on this topic nation wide, there won't be the same need for "safety" to live in one. Of course there will be exceptions such as the ones you called out, and I absolutely understand how important the support and security and community of a gayborhood can be for individuals who are struggling to come out or who are dealing with unsupportive/ abusive family. But as public opinion continues to shift more positively around this topic - which it has drastically done in the last 20 years - we will likely continue to see further integration of the LBGT community into geographies where it may have been less likely to settle in before.

I used myself as an example of someone who is gay who values and prefers what Tempe has to offer over life in a traditional gayborhood - while acknowledging that part of the reason I feel comfortable to live here is precisely because Tempe IS gay friendly and has gone out of its way to be such - even if it is not a traditional gayborhood like Central Phoenix.

[Obadno]

As a straight man I have foud that Tempe and AZ get a bad rap as a "conservative" state but it is trule very libertarian.

Very live and let live do your own thing man.

I can dig it.

[ASUSunDevil]

Tempe Development Update:

http://www.tempe.gov/home/showdocument?id=28960

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

This is going way too off-topic, so will be my last post on it: but, you can't use your own anecdotal stories of evidence of any nationwide trend. I'm 26 years old with friends who have been out for 10+ years and you're underestimating the struggles gay people still endure and the safety net that areas like Hillcrest, Boystown, etc. provide just as organizations like HRC do. Each and every one of my friends that has moved has gone to a city with a known 'gayborhood,' and considered that a high priority when determining where to go. Just because gays can integrate into society more than they could in the past doesn't mean that they'll discontinue the want to live with/around people similar to them. Just as certain areas are black, Mexican, snowbirds, etc. Beyond safety, it's just nice to be in a community of people like yourself. That's great that you have found that in Tempe.

As for Phoenix's own gayborhoods, Soleri once commented that it was actually McDowell that was the original until the 10 cut through town. Now, there are small pockets throughout the city which was nice, but it still would be better from a personal and economic standpoint (tourism, for one) to have a concentrated, walkable urban area that has boutique shopping, gay bars, dance clubs, boutique hotels and the like.

Lastly, saying that being gay is becoming a dead issue simply because it isn't being used to fire up political bases on either side is unfair to the thousands who still experience discrimination, to those who work in states where they can be fired solely for being, to those who still can't legally marry their partners, etc.

Back to actual development disucssion:



The problem is that the proposals really aren't 50/50. Aside from Marina Heights, UH2 and Monti's, there haven't been any high rise proposals aside from the "future" Ash/5th. Tempe is a cool city because of what it accomplishes on the ground level; Mill Ave is urban because of shade, walkability, human-scaled buildings, etc. not because of any high rises. But, the retail scene is hugely bar/restaurant-focused because of the lack of permanent resident base that can afford/or needs goods and services like groceries, hardware, etc. That's why I argue for higher development in key areas, and especially mixed use development so that there is 1) the population density needed to support retail and 2) the infrastructure in place for when that critical mass is reached. The light rail has transformed Apache, but single-use buildings will undo all progress that has been made. Yes, more attractive structures will line the road, but if you can't hop on the light rail 1 or 2 stops and pick up milk and eggs, what's the point?

It's the same thing with Hanover. Great things are happening on College Ave and Farmer - not in high rises, but on the ground - and 5th Street is the one opportunity to connect all those pieces. Hanover not only wasted a parcel that could handle high rise development (far enough away from residential neighborhoods, next to W6, already zoned, etc.), it created a single-use dead zone that lessens the walkability factor of 5th Street and failed to complement the retail plaza created by W6. I think that's a massive failure.

As for a grocery store, it will come when the demographics are there. Obviously, they still feel there are too many seasonal renters in the proximity of downtown to handle a full-sized store. I have to think the tipping point is close and that a tower above a grocery store would do the trick... but, I will certainly not support a stubby development on the Ash/University intersection.

I think we are trying to skip a step if we think Tempe will all of a sudden be a city full of highrises. 50 years ago, downtown Tempe was almost entirely 1 story buildings. Graddy Gammage Jr. often talks about how even in its low scale, it was a very great urban environment. It wasn't until the redevelopment of Mill that we began to see mid-rises come up. Unlike downtown Phoenix which already had some taller buildings such as the Securities Building, Luhrs, etc.

Unless you have a huge economic driver such as cities like Dubai or some of the rapidly expanding Chinese cities, the jump from single story and low-rise to high-rise is not part of the natural growth of cities. For one, I think that the great number of mid-rises popping up in Tempe is great. They are often replacing single story or empty lots. And from an urban standpoint, mid-rises tend to be a lot more pedestrian friendly. Tempe is moving in the right direction, and maybe eventually some of the older mid-rises will be replaced by high-rises. But I think it is a bit too utopic to expect all projects downtown to be over ten stories and get upset if something around 5 gets proposed.

[azsunsurfer]

Gayborhoods are found in older, more established cities (in blue states for the most part) because they were seen as santuary settlements for previous generations. People flocked to the cities and found safety in numbers much like newly arrived immigrants did. Even with immigrant populations, later generations become assimilated with the general population and resettled in other areas. I believe Melrose/ Roosevelt will be the closest thing to a gayborhood in Phoenix as generally the LGBT/ arts communities generally co-locate/ co-exisit. With the changes in technology and social attitudes as previously mentioned it will make the formation of future gayborhoods (at least in the Phoenix area which is young when comparing to other metro areas) somewhat obsolete. Establishments may decide to cluster, however as one who lives and invests in conservative suburban neighborhoods, I have never experienced any issues.