Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

As the train is built toward the west to hook up to the Rental Car Facility which the completion of is 6 years out I wonder if they have considered the opportunity of having a stop at the Greyhound Bus Terminal? Seems like a natural to me. People coming in by Bus from out- lining areas connecting to Air Travel and vice a versa. Any thoughts anyone?

That is a good idea. But it would probably be slightly difficult (alter the route by 100 yards) and too obvious for planners and therefore will never happen.

[turpentyne]

Somebody, a few posts ago, said there was mention of adding streetcar service in downtown Phoenix. in Is there any more info on this? I've been trying to find any mention of it. Or was this just verbally brought up? It should be seriously pursued as an affordable, viable option.

Maybe I'm romanticizing the idea, but I'd be in love with such an idea. I think we need to start by rethinking the 7th ave/7th street diet suggestions, and adding streetcars. Then cut across those north/south lines with Van Buren from the State Capital east to somewhere past 16th street (maybe this would drive a revival of the section of Van Buren east of 7th street?)

We could probably add another line along McDowell - and possibly Roosevelt? Not sure if that last one's a good idea.

I think any possibilities are an improvement. Just like I think we need to stop extending the one light rail line, and turn to adding new routes, immediately

[turpentyne]

I definitely like the idea of adding a stop at the greyhound station, between the airport and the rental car facility, but yet another challenge is proving there would be ridership on that stop.

Having ridden greyhound several times, there are some sad socio-economic realities about the people that ride Greyhound. While some may find it useful to get to the airport or car rental from there, the majority won't. I can't tell you how many people I've encountered on those buses that were riding because they didn't dare risk getting on an airplane, for numerous nefarious reasons. I hope this doesn't offend. I'm not speaking out of biased perceptions: these are first-hand experiences.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by turpentyne

Somebody, a few posts ago, said there was mention of adding streetcar service in downtown Phoenix. in Is there any more info on this? I've been trying to find any mention of it. Or was this just verbally brought up? It should be seriously pursued as an affordable, viable option.

Maybe I'm romanticizing the idea, but I'd be in love with such an idea. I think we need to start by rethinking the 7th ave/7th street diet suggestions, and adding streetcars. Then cut across those north/south lines with Van Buren from the State Capital east to somewhere past 16th street (maybe this would drive a revival of the section of Van Buren east of 7th street?)

We could probably add another line along McDowell - and possibly Roosevelt? Not sure if that last one's a good idea.

I think any possibilities are an improvement. Just like I think we need to stop extending the one light rail line, and turn to adding new routes, immediately

The Grand Avenue Rail Project has recently been transformed into a Downtown loop. Follow its progress on FB: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Grand...29848010385721

The idea of a streetcar loop was also among those presented in the recent Downtown Phoenix Transportation Plan.

In addition, the consultants hired for Reinvent Phoenix included a Midtown loop among their proposals.

Of course, none of these are funded, so there's no guarantee any will be built -- but there is talk on multiple fronts.

Originally Posted by turpentyne

I definitely like the idea of adding a stop at the greyhound station, between the airport and the rental car facility, but yet another challenge is proving there would be ridership on that stop.

Having ridden greyhound several times, there are some sad socio-economic realities about the people that ride Greyhound. While some may find it useful to get to the airport or car rental from there, the majority won't. I can't tell you how many people I've encountered on those buses that were riding because they didn't dare risk getting on an airplane, for numerous nefarious reasons. I hope this doesn't offend. I'm not speaking out of biased perceptions: these are first-hand experiences.

Also, bus terminals aren't as fixed as airport terminals. Over the past few decades, Greyhound has moved away from Downtown terminals and focused instead on buildings near freeways. I'd hate to see more money spent on a SkyTrain station only to see Greyhound relocate once again. Then again, maybe a connection to the SkyTrain would have an anchoring effect.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by turpentyne

Somebody, a few posts ago, said there was mention of adding streetcar service in downtown Phoenix. in Is there any more info on this? I've been trying to find any mention of it. Or was this just verbally brought up? It should be seriously pursued as an affordable, viable option.

Maybe I'm romanticizing the idea, but I'd be in love with such an idea. I think we need to start by rethinking the 7th ave/7th street diet suggestions, and adding streetcars. Then cut across those north/south lines with Van Buren from the State Capital east to somewhere past 16th street (maybe this would drive a revival of the section of Van Buren east of 7th street?)

We could probably add another line along McDowell - and possibly Roosevelt? Not sure if that last one's a good idea.

I think any possibilities are an improvement. Just like I think we need to stop extending the one light rail line, and turn to adding new routes, immediately

Yes, I posted the potential lines and brought up a streetcar for discussion based on its inclusion in the city's transportation presentation.

GARP's matches one of mine nearly identically, so I suppose that one might be the most supported; I just don't know how streetcar can cross light rail tracks? Can someone confirm that it's possible?

GARP's line is Jackson and 3rd to Madison and 7th Ave; north on 7th Ave, northwest on Grand, south on 17th, east on McDowell and loop around Heritage Park by way of 3rd, 4th and 1st streets.

As you mention - as I did, as well - there are quite a few possible routes. It just depends on what goals you feel are most worth stimulating. There are also enough streets in need of revitalization that we can handle both streetcar and 7th road diets.

I support Grand Ave, but I worry that the focus on so many of its needed improvements is diluting what could be happening on Roosevelt. It's hard to believe that Roosevelt Pointe is the only new project on there since Roosevelt Square. I might prefer to see Roosevelt densify and build up before connecting Gateway. Similarly, I can't see the city revitalizing the Fairgrounds Area.

I definitely want the line running down Jackson, and even better if it could go a bit more to the south for a bit. Then, I think I'd want to hit an established neighborhood for initial ridership, a neighborhood needing help, and an area ripe for development.

I like 12th St, west on Roosevelt, north on 5th St, west on Moreland, south on 1st St, west on Jackson, north on 4th Ave, east on VB and north on 12th.

It's a bit cumbersome, but I think Garfield is a huge opportunity to revive a neighborhood with the potential to bring as much to the core as Roosevelt has. Then, a Hance stop along Moreland would help access and visibility immensely. 1st St runs south through to Jackson and hits ASU, the CBD, and sporting venues. The warehouse district is our last shot at our LoDo/Gaslamp, 4th Ave gives visibility to Union Station and goes north through to VB in an area desperate for development (Adams-Fillmore, 1st ave to 7th ave).

At the same time, there's no reason a Midtown line couldn't be done as well. McDowell has a ton of potential- add a few more gay bars next to Karambas and I bet you'd get a mini Hillcrest within a decade.

[DevilsRider]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

GARP's matches one of mine nearly identically, so I suppose that one might be the most supported; I just don't know how streetcar can cross light rail tracks? Can someone confirm that it's possible?

The proposed Tempe Streetcar lines would cross the light rail tracks on Mill Ave and Ash, and I've never heard that brought up as an issue, so I imagine it's possible to do without too much trouble

[turpentyne]

hmmmm. good question on whether the two tracks can cross.

I could be wrong, but It seems to me I might've seen this in Toronto. There a couple stretches of separated light rail, that are blended into the streetcar system. I swear I've seen those crossing over streetcar lines at a couple intersections.

oh, I have to add as somebody who - until last week - lived in Garfield, I would love a line that better connects that neighborhood. They've redone a couple north-south streets there, and it would be interesting to see. I suppose there might be a noise/NIMBY issue for a few residents there, though But they also wouldn't put up the fight that wealthier areas would.

[dtnphx]

I was so bummed when I read this. We have nothing like this on the drawing board. Our attempt at revitalizing Central Station is bush-league and on top of that, we don't even have passenger rail coming into the Valley at all.

Here's a sneak peek at the Denver Union Station transit hub
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/bl...98430&page=all

[rocksteady]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

I was so bummed when I read this. We have nothing like this on the drawing board. Our attempt at revitalizing Central Station is bush-league and on top of that, we don't even have passenger rail coming into the Valley at all.

Here's a sneak peek at the Denver Union Station transit hub
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/bl...98430&page=all

Wow, I had no idea that was under development, let alone almost complete. It's amazing how quickly Denver has been revitalized over the last decade. I can't ever foresee a project like this in Phoenix even getting thought about, let alone ever built. Why can't our city planners and govt officials take note.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by rocksteady

Wow, I had no idea that was under development, let alone almost complete. It's amazing how quickly Denver has been revitalized over the last decade. I can't ever foresee a project like this in Phoenix even getting thought about, let alone ever built. Why can't our city planners and govt officials take note.

Denver and Phoenix are radically different cities, actually, if one looks strips away suburbs build since the 1960s.

The urban core of Denver was laid out during the street car age, and, rather extensive housing areas were built for all social economic classes. The city, too, developed one of the largest park systems in the US, and, has had a long tradition of using these parks. Think of the city as being built around an urban center like Omaha, or Des Moines, where a huge rail yard surrounded half the city in the 1920s, and, a couple mile long stretch of medium height buildings along a couple of streets.

More importantly, unlike Phoenix, the city of Denver had great trouble increasing in area as suburbs bloomed after WWII, since the city of Denver was also the County of Denver. This forced the city to deal with increasing it's tax base differently than Phoenix. Unlike Phoenix, which had miles of room to expand in Maricopa County, Denver had to increase it's tax base largely through increasing the tax revenue from a city footprint that other than the land gained through the DIA gambit, has essentially remained constant since forced busing in the '60s, during which large portions of neighboring counties became incorporated cities.

Denver grew it's revenue base for many years by tax backed facility development, such as the expansions at the old airport, Stapleton; sports facilities such as Mile High Stadium, and McNichols Arena in the 50s and 70s; Coors Field and Denver International Airport in the '90s, and Pepsi Center as well as the new Bronco stadium (now called the Sports Authority Field at Mile High) around the at the turn of the 21st Century. In addition, from about 1970, Denver spear headed the formation of the Regional Transportation District, which is an almost metro wide funding mechanism that has been used to make a Denver centered light rail and commuter rail system, which when completed will funnel a couple hundred of thousand people per day into the downtown portions of the city, as well as provide a metro wide bus network.

The primary reason Phoenix has not produced a vibrant urban core yet, simply is that the city has not yet had too. Tax revenues increased decade after decade as the city spread out in all directions in a grid pattern with strip malls, schools, and, housing zoned even before any roads were laid out. The sheer success of Phoenix until 2008 made city government deaf to any significant change in growth pattern.

Now with Phoenix not growing much, the tax base decimated by collapse of the housing bubble, and, the city increasingly hemmed in by cities, Phoenix is having to deal with financial problems similar to those experienced by Denver since the 1960s.

[nickw252]

Work on the light-rail extension from Bethany Home Road to Dunlap Avenue along 19th Avenue won’t be finished until 2015 or 2016, but planning is under way for a route farther west.

West Valley Connecting to Phoenix by 2026 – $550M

Valley Metro will roll out a light-rail connection to the West Valley over the next 12 years, which might help clear congestion along packed corridors and change the face of Glendale’s downtown.

Five miles of light rail, streetcar track or rapid-bus infrastructure will extend from Phoenix to Glendale’s downtown by 2026. The endeavor might cost about $550M and take three years to construct, but officials expect the project to bring in economic development and help create a more sustainable metro area.

Phoenix and Glendale would split $150M, their share of the project cost.

A light-rail connection could reduce jams on Grand Avenue, where six-lane intersections lock down traffic for miles during rush hour, and more than 400 entrances to businesses and homes interrupt the flow from downtown Phoenix to Loop 303, said Bob Hazlett, senior engineer with the Maricopa Association of Governments.

East Valley Demanding More Rail – $1.1B

Mesa’s inaugural run was only the beginning of a rail renaissance that in coming decades could see the Southeast Valley laying new track not only for light rail but also for streetcars and higher-capacity, speedier trains to the Gateway area and beyond. Mesa, Chandler, Tempe and Gilbert all could play a role.

The first phase of that expansion is 3.1 miles along Main Street eastward from the Sycamore Street light-rail station.

By fall, downtown should have tracks and at least the outlines of two new stations.

The nearly $200M project is so far ahead of schedule that Mesa included operating costs for the new leg in its 2014-15 budget in case service begins next spring. That would be more than a half-year earlier than planned.

Even while planning the first extension, however, Mesa was lobbying for another 1.9 miles. That would take the tracks to Gilbert Road, scheduled to open in 2018.

Chandler is in the earliest phases of studying whether light rail would work there. Transportation Manager Dan Cook told the City Council this year that it could be 15 to 25 years before tracks are laid. Costs could reach $780M and no one knows where that would come from.

No light-rail extensions are planned in Tempe. But Valley Metro hopes to open a rail-based downtown streetcar system by 2017. Two routes for the $130M project are on the table with a decision expected soon.

Scottsdale Opponents Snooty About Rail

In Scottsdale, the mere mention of light-rail transit provokes strong opinions, arguments and even the occasional shouting match.

In recent years, some residents and city leaders have shunned light rail, pointing to what they say is its multimillion-dollar cost and possibility of drawing in more crime and disrupting businesses during construction.

As a result, light rail has failed to gain any traction in Scottsdale, and transit commuters continue to rely largely on bus service to meet their public-transportation needs.

http://azbex.com/demand-for-light-ra...to-s-e-valley/

[N830MH]

I Hoped Metro Light Rail will be next extension to Metrocenter. If they consider it. They will approved it. They will moved up from year of 2026 to 2019.

[Jjs5056]

It sucks to hear that the Tempe streetcar has been pushed into 2017; this thing has been on the drawing board forever it seems, and I can't believe there are more delays. It would be great if somehow they gained additional funding for a more extensive line, or propose a final route that is a variation, i could understand. Otherwise, the Rio route could've been started years ago.

I'm glad some cities are talking about streetcar and BRT as alternatives to light rail. If Scottsdale is out for good, then I think the light rail system we have in place will have reached buildout once Downtown Glendale (screw WestGate - you chose a cotton field over an original transit frontage), South Phoenix and the Biltmore are linked.

Beyond that, the only two routes that make sense for light rail are Rural and Camelback. I know Rural was found to need only BRT, but I think by then it had become the Tempe-Chandler line it is today. Bringing Scottsdale residents to the mix would gave to make that a viable option. And, of course, Camelback - the site of so many of our urban issues in this city. A developed uptown should be connected to a developed old town... It's too bad.

But, anyway, hearing light rail being thrown around from cities like Chandler and Gilbert is scary. Neither will have, or do they seem to want, the built environment and demographics to support it. I think it's tossed around so much because the original line is essentially a streetcar, and because we lack commuter rail. That's where future investment needs to lie - it can't serve all 3 roles optimally. An express train and upgrades to prove direct ROW are definitely needed. Combined with local streetcar and bus rapid transit, I think there'd be as good a system in place as possible without commuter rail.

I hope BRT in Tempe is designed as a real example to other cities on implementing it. I don't think they've discussed design - but, it's a 1-time chance to make Rural into a complete street, while continuing to show that it's the leader in Valley transit. This means a raised median for pedestrian platforms, dedicated BRT only lanes, with at least a change in grade from normal traffic if 2 medians can't fit. Because of course, beyond the vehicle lanes would be landscaped medians with real, functional, urban, desert shade. I'm never sure which routes are suited for bike lanes, but if Rural is one, it would have to go between the median and sidewalk.

Anyway, Tempe with excellent BRT connected to Chandler, a neighborhood streetcar connecting both bus and light rail, while providing easier access to downtown amenities, would be pretty great, and the Gilberts of AZ can look at the similarities between our light rail and a true robust bus system, using BRT to connect employment centers (to park and rides for light rail where it works) and trolley/streetcar to connect some surrounding neighborhoods to their downtowns.

[turpentyne]

I hope that Metrocenter is as far as they go, and that they're winding down the other end's extentions as well. It's time to add completely new lines. The longer one line is, the less efficient it becomes.

Personally I think there should be a sideways U, along mcdowell for some distance, then turning north on a west side or east side street of importance, so it can come back along bethany or camelback.

(not exactly a researched idea, granted. But it would make my life better! (plus, easily extendable to Scottsdale when they get their heads out of their arses about adding light rail)

[turpentyne]

An opportunity to give input on a passenger rail line between Phoenix and Tucson:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...-rail/8795533/

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...-rail/8732171/

Scottsdale city council to talks light-rail. Hopefully they will agrees and they will approved it. They will take via Loop 101 bypass Scottsdale Rd.

Let the speculation begin.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by N830MH

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...-rail/8732171/

Scottsdale city council to talks light-rail. Hopefully they will agrees and they will approved it. They will take via Loop 101 bypass Scottsdale Rd.

Let the speculation begin.

Fail. LR built on Indian land with virtually zero population. Wouldn't receive federal grants.

LR belongs on Scottsdale Rd or Camelback, serving old town. Nobody will ride a commuter rail type hybrid along the 101 corridor that connects to basically a street car in Tempe.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

As the train is built toward the west to hook up to the Rental Car Facility which the completion of is 6 years out I wonder if they have considered the opportunity of having a stop at the Greyhound Bus Terminal? Seems like a natural to me. People coming in by Bus from out- lining areas connecting to Air Travel and vice a versa. Any thoughts anyone?

That seems sensible. However, I'd rather we not invest in the Greyhoud terminal at that location long term. It makes more sense to me to move the Greyhound Station to connect to historic Union Station. Having bus, circulators, Greyhounds, Commuter Rail, InterCity rail, Light Rail, etc. all meeting together at one truly Union Station would be ideal.

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Fail. LR built on Indian land with virtually zero population. Wouldn't receive federal grants.

LR belongs on Scottsdale Rd or Camelback, serving old town. Nobody will ride a commuter rail type hybrid along the 101 corridor that connects to basically a street car in Tempe.

That idea is moronic as you outlined. Also the article fails to mention that Council Candidate Kathy Littlefield is current Scottsdale Councilman Littlefield's wife. Littlefield is a long time anti LRT loonie.

I once met him and said (to get a rise out of him) "I can't wait to ride the light rail to Old Town one day" and he exploded "over my dead body!" I wanted to say, but held in, "well, that won't be too long anyhow."

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Also the article fails to mention that Council Candidate Kathy Littlefield is current Scottsdale Councilman Littlefield's wife. Littlefield is a long time anti LRT loonie.

I once met him and said (to get a rise out of him) "I can't wait to ride the light rail to Old Town one day" and he exploded "over my dead body!" I wanted to say, but held in, "well, that won't be too long anyhow."

I missed that detail and thought it was just Bob Littlefield ranting against rail once again. I guess since he's now running for state legislature, his wife wants to keep the anti-rail, anti-density agenda alive in the Scottsdale City Council. My biggest fear is that Bob Littlefield is successful in seeking a seat in the AZ House of Representatives and then uses that position to introduce legislation that would make it difficult for Scottsdale to build light rail even if the mayor and council support it. There are enough Agenda 21 conspiracy theorists in the legislature right now that such a bill might just stand a chance -- just as the Tennessee state legislature recently took action to block a BRT project in Nashville.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

I was so bummed when I read this. We have nothing like this on the drawing board. Our attempt at revitalizing Central Station is bush-league and on top of that, we don't even have passenger rail coming into the Valley at all.

Here's a sneak peek at the Denver Union Station transit hub
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/bl...98430&page=all

To show you how bad the situation in Phoenix is, one has to envy Denver's transportation hub! By world standards Denver's hub is a tragic, minimal solution, geared to real estate development within a very small area, that profited a few property developers, at the expense of public need. A huge empty space has been built up in a manner such that the hub is almost impossible to transfer THROUGH in a timely manner. Times to transfer through the hub between suburban locations and from suburban locations to the airport line render using the system for such needs practically useless. In addition, real estate developers have hemmed the transportation complex in, in such a manner than future capacity increases will cost many billions of dollars to implement.*

Those of you in Phoenix and other US cities need to study Denver's transportation solutions as much for failure as success.

*Any scenario where a additional 3 to 5% of Denver's metropolitan population HAVE to use the light rail and commuter system will result in a third world public transportation environment as usage saturation would be reached long before increased throughput could be implemented.