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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 5:27 AM
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Vancouver view cone review

Don't really like creating new threads, but I couldn't find one where this would really fit. Besides I'm sure this is going to gather many responses. Personally I'm a fan of the view cones, but agree they could use a few tweaks here and there. Anyways onto the goods. The COV today released an RFP to study the view cones. (all the goods ones are on Friday afternoons so the media doesn't jump all over them )
I hacked down the document as much as I could.

There will be two public input surveys completed and the final report will be due Oct 15, 2009.

The following view corridors are under review.

View Corridors in Review:
12.1.1 – Granville Bridge above Granville Island to Crown/Grouse Mountain
12.1.2 - Granville Bridge at mid-point to Crown/Grouse Mountain
12.1.3 - Granville Bridge above north shore edge to Crown/Grouse Mountain
12.2 - Granville Bridge at mid-point to Mount Seymour
A – Alder Terrace viewing platform below Lamey’s Mill Road to Mount Seymour
B1 – Charleson Seawall below Charleson Park to the Lions
B2 - Charleson Seawall below Charleson Park to Crown/Grouse
C1 – Laurel Landbride (north end) to the Lions
C2 – Laurel Landbridge (north end) to Crown/Grouse (includes C2.1 & C2.2)
D – Heather Bay water’s edge at Leg in Boot Square
E1 – Cambie Bridge from mid point to Crown/Grouse
E2 – Cambie Bridge above the south shore of False Creek to Mount Seymour
(includes E2.1 & E2.2)
9.1 –Cambie Street between 10th and 11th Avenues to North Shore Mountains
9.2 –Cambie Street at 12th Avenue to North Shore Mountains (includes 9.2.1 & 9.2.2)
3.1 –Queen Elizabeth Park viewing area north of conservatory to Downtown Skyline
3.2 -Queen Elizabeth Park viewing area north of conservatory to North Shore Mtns.
(includes 3.2.1, 3.2.2, 3.2.3, 3.2.4, 3.2.4a & 3.2.4b)

Heres a pic to see what that are talking about.



The purpose of the Downtown Capacity and View Corridors Study is to review the adopted policies on height limits and view corridors and recommend changes to achieve additional development capacity in the Downtown.

A key component of the study is to balance public values between views/heights and other public objectives that might benefit from additional benefit capacity. Benefit capacity is the additional building height, density or other development allowance, beyond the base zoning of a site, which has been approved by City Council. While City staff and Project resources are sufficient to understand the desirability of these trade- offs from directly impacted groups (e.g. heritage groups, developers, residents who benefit from protected views), a Contractor is required to complete a public input survey to establish a similar understanding from a statistically valid cross section of all Vancouver residents who also benefit from these protected views.

The scope of the RFP is to create and complete a two (2)stage public input survey and to provide services including analyzing information from these surveys. This public input survey will be a systematic collection of public opinions, attitudes, responses on facts, and value through questionnaires to determine priorities and levels of support for proposed changes. The survey will be pertaining to the issues of public attitudes and values towards public views, view corridors modifications, revised building height limits, alternative downtown development scenarios and additional development potential to achieve public benefits for the citizens of Vancouver.

The main objectives of the public survey are to:
a) prioritize the importance of individual view corridors;
b) test the acceptability of modifications to view corridors;


This is still very early in the process, remember this is only a study, it will then need to be reviewed, adjusted, reviewed again, before it ever goes to council to be voted on.
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  #2  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 5:34 AM
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View cones are what makes Vancouver, Vancouver.

I have no problem with drastically relaxing height restrictions outside of view cones, but the view cones must remain. Period.

Besides, on occasion, they allow, and dictate, great building design such as Ritz Carlton Vancouver [which is obviously on hold and/or canceled].
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  #3  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 11:01 AM
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I see the aesthetic value in the view cones but at the same time they're kind of a ridiculous idea considering they pertain to the very core of the entire metro, the one spot where density is most socially acceptable and in terms of economics should be maximized (i.e. high demand area). And on top of that they're from rather arbitrary locations.

I think they've been quite useful up to this point by more evenly distributing density around the core in shorter towers but downtown is effectively built out at this point. There are a few sites for easy infill but in the near future all that will be left is the option of demolition and redevelopment, which only leads to higher costs (for developers and therefore tenants/residents) and this is only exacerbated if the only options for redevelopment are the creation of moderately-sized towers as opposed to higher density options which can garner more favourable returns for developers.

When the currently low ceiling on density is reached, downtown will become stagnant in terms of development and job growth and then what? Some people living south of downtown will have great views but downtown will have peaked.

I think the City realizes that downtown has outgrown the current view cones and they already know they want to relax them, otherwise they wouldn't be bothering with this review.
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Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 3:37 PM
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Bingo. I agree with you 100%

In a regional sense, I think it is somewhat silly that we are investing billions into rapid transit systems to converge on downtown -- and then not have any additional significant job growth because it is unfavourable for developers to build space there. If the city can increase the attractiveness of commercial development (higher floors garner higher rents, no?), then they should do that. Sure, tall buildings cost more to build, but once the building is paid off, the building owner should earn top-dollar for those higher floors. We're not going to be in recession forever!

But, I suppose adding 20-30 more 300ft (+10% mechanical) stubs will add office space too.
Just let Calgary have all the office tower (both height and architectural excellence) glory.
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  #5  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 4:00 PM
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As a North Vancouverite I strongly encourage the blocking of ugly views to the south with glorious gigantic skyscrapers.
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  #6  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 7:10 PM
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Last edited by Hed Kandi; Oct 4, 2022 at 4:34 PM.
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  #7  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 7:45 PM
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Look at where most of the view cone starting points are on the map:

1. City Hall;

2. South False Creek;

3. North End Granville St. Bridge;

For the latter two points, one is already tooooo close to low/mid-rise towers to see much of a view beyond.

These arbititrary view cone points seem rather silly to me. Just more illogical social engineering that prohibits 700/800 footers from being built in the city.

Besides, the skyscape downtown is "the view" from afar.

My two cents.
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  #8  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 10:15 PM
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yeah, personally, i like the view cones and relatively strict height limits, but i think they really make the most sense if the city also concomitantly moves beyond the single family dwelling in zoning the neighborhoods. lots of relatively short towers everywhere makes a lot more sense to me than a 1 million dollar 1400 sqf special on west 6th. restricting growth and height in this way has a perverse effect on the price of available buildable space (and density), making it almost too costly to build out.

so yeah, my thought (i know, you all were just waiting for it!) is that we ought to give the east and south to good highrise development, and keep the view cones in the core as they are.
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  #9  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 10:52 PM
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The only problem with view cones is there isn't one from my window.

View cones do some interesting things. I think some of them make more sense than others. The Charleston park and City Hall view cones are the first I'd shrink or let go of. I'm just not a big fan of the view from Charleston Park compared to Alder, say, and the City Hall view cone could be shaped to better frame the view. It's too wide. The City should also decide that it actually wants the Little mountain view cone - and prevent trees from encroaching into it - or let it go in favour of highrises along Cambie.

^ And I agree that there should be more development allowed along arterials, but it's mostly another discussion. However, there are view cones on Cambie (Little mountain), Main, Commercial, and at Trout lake. Of those, the Cambie and Commercial ones would probably be most restrictive if highrises were allowed.

Commercial @ 15th Avenue

City of Vancouver http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/views/viewcones/21.htm

Queen Elizabeth park

City of Vancouver http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/views/viewcones/3.htm
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  #10  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2009, 11:08 PM
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The only view cones I think are essential are the ones for the Granville and Cambie street bridges, as they provide a dramatic backdrop upon entering the city. Who cares about the ones along Lammy Mill Rd or whatever. Plus QE park has quite a panoramic view of the entire North Shore, so I think having a few protrusions into the current view cone won't affect the view much
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Old Posted Mar 29, 2009, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkster1982 View Post
The only view cones I think are essential are the ones for the Granville and Cambie street bridges, as they provide a dramatic backdrop upon entering the city. Who cares about the ones along Lammy Mill Rd or whatever. Plus QE park has quite a panoramic view of the entire North Shore, so I think having a few protrusions into the current view cone won't affect the view much
This post wins.

As is, the view from QE park is blocked by the trees, so why have it? The trees are taking more away from the view of the mountains than downtown ever did, and for many people the view of downtown is just as important as it's backdrop. Nothing wrong with cutting those cones way back or eliminating them entirely.
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Old Posted Mar 29, 2009, 12:58 AM
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Exactly, if they are not willing to remove the trees and really open up the view from QEP than that view cone especially is pointless. Also aren't skylines a view of their own? Even without view cones would there not be fantastic views still from the water's edge? And also aren't their mountains all around us, is it really a big deal if 1 or 2 is slightly blocked? Also has anyone ever noticed that the majority of photographs of Vancouver that display the city and the mountains together in their entirety are from the air with an aspect that is about a 500m to a kilometer high? Most of the views of the mountains from street level are crappy at best as it is because from most aspects even low rise buildings and trees block the view. I agree with the above posters, there really are only a few view cones that actually make sense, mainly the Granville and Cambie street view cones.

Just my opinion, i would be more than happy is a compromise between my ideals and the current view cones occurs.
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Old Posted Mar 29, 2009, 6:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkster1982 View Post
The only view cones I think are essential are the ones for the Granville and Cambie street bridges, as they provide a dramatic backdrop upon entering the city. Who cares about the ones along Lammy Mill Rd or whatever. Plus QE park has quite a panoramic view of the entire North Shore, so I think having a few protrusions into the current view cone won't affect the view much
If anyone who is INVOLVED with the view cone reads this thread, be aware that this is an excellent point.
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Old Posted Mar 29, 2009, 8:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mininari View Post
If anyone who is INVOLVED with the view cone reads this thread, be aware that this is an excellent point.
Or you know... you could just go to the meetings to voice your opinion.
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  #15  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 3:15 AM
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The current view cones are outdated and need to be drastically altered in order to help keep Vancouver's downtown from becoming a giant bedroom community.

Also, its funny how a lot of the view cones tend to originate from the area in and around 12th and Cambie. Those fools need to spend much more time with their jobs than looking out their windows to admire the view.
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  #16  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 12:28 PM
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article in today's Globe about this;

City planners take new look at urban vistas
FRANCES BULA

Special to the Globe and Mail
March 30, 2009

Vancouver is legendary as a city that has fought to prevent buildings from intruding on its spectacular mountain backdrop and ocean setting.

Unlike Calgary, which lost its chance to preserve views of the Rockies 25 years ago, or Toronto, which has allowed a highway plus a wall of condo towers to go up between the city and its lake, Vancouver set an aggressive policy almost two decades ago to protect more than two dozen designated view corridors.

But now the city is entertaining re-examining that controversial policy, one that has its fierce defenders and its equally fierce critics, especially the architects who have had to slice off or squish parts of buildings to make them fit around the corridors.

And the city's head planner is signalling that he's definitely open to change.

"I've got a serious appetite for shifting those view corridors," says Brent Toderian, a former Calgary planner hired two years ago, who has been working hard to set new directions in a city famous for its urban planning. "The view corridors have been one of the most monumental city-shaping tools in Vancouver's history but they need to be looked at again. We have a mountain line and we have a building line where that line is inherently subjective."

The issue isn't just about preserving views versus giving architects free rein. Vancouver has used height and density bonuses to developers with increasing frequency in return for all kinds of community benefits, including daycares, parks, theatres and social housing. A height limit means less to trade for those amenities.

Mr. Toderian, who thinks the city also needs to establish some new view corridors along with adjusting or eliminating others, says a public hearing on the issue won't happen until the fall, but he is already kicking off the discussion quietly in the hope that it will turn into a wide-ranging debate.

"The input for the last few years has been one-sided, from the people who think the view corridors should be abolished," he said.

"But we're looking forward to hearing what everyone thinks. Most people who would support them don't even think about them. They think the views we have are by accident."

The view-corridor policy, formally adopted in 1989, was the result of public complaints over some tall buildings going up, including Harbour Centre, which is now, with its tower and revolving restaurant, seen as a defining part of the Vancouver skyline. But then, it helped spur a public consultation process and policy development that many say confused the goal of preserving views with a mathematical set of rules that often didn't make sense.

One of those critics is prominent architect Richard Henriquez, who said the corridors don't protect the views that people have consistently said they value most from the city's many beaches and along streets that terminate at the water.

Instead, he says many of the view corridors are arbitrarily chosen points that preserve a shard of view for commuters coming into town.

That has resulted in the city losing billions of dollars of potential development "for someone driving along so they can get a glimpse of something for a second."

And, Mr. Henriquez argues, city residents have a wealth of exposure to the city's mountains throughout the region.

"Downtown Vancouver is a speck of urbanity in a sea of views," said Mr. Henriquez, who is feeling the problem acutely these days while he works on a development project downtown where the owners are trying to preserve a historic residential hotel, the Murray, while building an economically feasible tower on the smaller piece of land next to it.

The view corridor means the building has to be shorter and broader and is potentially undoable.

His project is one in a long list of projects that have been abandoned or altered because of view corridor rules in Vancouver. The Shangri-La Hotel, currently the tallest building in the city at 650 feet, is sliced diagonally along one side to prevent it from straying into the view corridor.

At the Woodward's project, which redeveloped the city's historic department store, one tower had to be shortened and the other raised to fit the corridor. And architect Bing Thom's plan for a crystal spire on top of a development next to the Hotel Georgia was eventually dropped because city officials refused to budge on allowing the needle-like top to protrude.

But one person wary about the city tinkering with the policy is former city councillor Gordon Price.

"When people talk about revisiting, it just means one thing: eroding," said Mr. Price, still a vocal advocate on urban issues. "People may only get this fragment of a view but it's very precious. And those fragments will become scarcer as the city grows. The longer they remain intact, the more valuable they become."

It's a debate that's unique to Vancouver. Mr. Toderian said that when he was in Calgary, there was no discussion about trying to preserve views from the downtown to the Rockies in the distance.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...itishColumbia/
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  #17  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 3:54 PM
Mininari Mininari is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Mind View Post
Or you know... you could just go to the meetings to voice your opinion.
You're absolutely right. I should, and I would if I wasn't living in Winnipeg now!
Seeing as your location says 'Petawawa,' I imagine you're in the same boat

(I'm still very attached to Vancouver!)

My comment is mainly referring to a particular occasion where a city of Vancouver development officer identified himself to me after I posted something in here that he probably shouldn't have told me. (long time ago, irrelevant info now). Obviously city planning staff keep a close eye on what is said in here, so I was merely recommending a good comment towards them.
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  #18  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Delirium View Post
It's a debate that's unique to Vancouver. Mr. Toderian said that when he was in Calgary, there was no discussion about trying to preserve views from the downtown to the Rockies in the distance.
If you read the print copy of this article in the newspaper, the last line reads:

Quote:
It's a debate that's unique to Vancouver. Mr. Towering said that when he was in Calgary, there was no discussion about trying to preserve views from the downtown to the Rockies in the distance.
No joke!!
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Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 6:23 PM
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Speaking of the G & B newspaper article and the author, Frances Bula... from Frances Bula's blog...

Quote:
Vancouver’s famous view corridors up for debate this year
March 30th, 2009

Vancouver’s famous view corridors have prompted more anguished howls from architects than almost anything else I can think of over the years. Now, the city is looking at re-examining them. (And, as the sharp-eyed people at skyscraper[page].com have noted, the posting for people to run the public consultation went up on city website Friday. You can see their comments on the whole debate here.) You can get a flavour of the arguments from my story in the Globe today, which I’ve reproduced below.
http://www.francesbula.com/?p=1334
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Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 6:59 PM
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Also, this is incorrect:

Quote:
And architect Bing Thom's plan for a crystal spire on top of a development next to the Hotel Georgia was eventually dropped because city officials refused to budge on allowing the needle-like top to protrude.
City Council eventually did allow the "finger" to exceed the view cone (but only the finger) - it was the developer's financial problems that led to the sale of the hotel site and the change in tower design (to allow larger suites).

It is still in the CD-1 bylaw for the site - See section 4.1(c) of the Rezoning Bylaw here:

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/bylaws/...1%28413%29.PDF
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