What ethnic neighborhoods are most like the old country?

[jd3189]

Oh, you guys wanted similarities in built form to the native country? Well, I wasn't looking at it that way since it's expected that American cities have a distinct look from those in Europe, Asia, etc.


But built form is only part of the story. What really makes an ethnic neighborhood similar to the country it's based on is the businesses, cultural offerings, way people live, signage, etc. This was much stronger in the past when the immigrants newly arrived to these areas.

[hipster duck]

An Irish neighbourhood on the East Coast around the turn of the century might have had a passing built form resemblance to a rowhouse neighbourhood in Ireland. I'm thinking of places like Fell's Point in Baltimore or Fishtown in Philly.

It's a stretch, but Montreal is a magnet for French (i.e. from France) immigrants. I suppose if you were from Lille, Montreal's built form wouldn't seem so foreign.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by edale

I've not been to Korea, but I have heard that parts of LA's Koreatown are somewhat similar to parts of Seoul. Especially the area right around Wilshire. Other than that, parts of Westlake kind of look like Tijuana to me, especially around the intersection of Alvarado and 6th: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0595...7i16384!8i8192

Was recently in Korea... There are similarities but for the most part, Seoul was too clean and proper compared to Koreatown

[cannedairspray]

Originally Posted by 10023

Maybe Mexican neighborhoods in states that used to be part of Mexico

The places in the US that used to be in Mexico were so sparsely populated that no, they can't feel like "Mexico" whether it's now or even then. Totally different thing.

Originally Posted by jd3189

At their beginnings, places like New York's Little Italy and San Francisco's Chinatown were pretty representative of their respective countries. That probably goes for many ethnic neighborhoods in walkable neighborhoods. They become less like the old country overtime.

I've always found it kinda amusing- from a 21st century viewpoint, of course- that American Chinatowns are considered some type of "genuine". You go there and no signs are in simplified Chinese, and no one is speaking Mandarin. Sure, it can (I don't know if it is) reflective of Guangzhou in the 1940s, or places in Taiwan in the 1970s, that were in turn made up of refugees from Guangdong. But it's not very reflective of China NOW. If you accept that "Tex-Mex" is something very different from actual Mexican food or culture, let me assure you that there's not a Chinatown in the US- Vancouver may be different with a different generation of immigration- that feels much like China in general at all.

[Commentariat]

Originally Posted by cannedairspray

I've always found it kinda amusing- from a 21st century viewpoint, of course- that American Chinatowns are considered some type of "genuine". You go there and no signs are in simplified Chinese, and no one is speaking Mandarin. Sure, it can (I don't know if it is) reflective of Guangzhou in the 1940s, or places in Taiwan in the 1970s, that were in turn made up of refugees from Guangdong. But it's not very reflective of China NOW. If you accept that "Tex-Mex" is something very different from actual Mexican food or culture, let me assure you that there's not a Chinatown in the US- Vancouver may be different with a different generation of immigration- that feels much like China in general at all.

Exactly. Parts of inner city Melbourne are being developed by Asian money in basically the same high rise style as modern Asian metropolises, with the end product being populated overwhelmingly by Asian immigrants. There's one project going up now on the edge of the Melbourne CBD with 2,700 units in four buildings of 60-90 stories, across the road from another just-completed project of 1,800 units in five buildings of 30-50 stories. Down the bottom, you have the same sorts of businesses catering to young, prosperous Asian clientele that you'd see in Shanghai, Singapore or KL (in fact, many Asian chains are expanding here). The same thing could easily have been built in any big Asian city. This kind of development is far more authentically representative of Asia in 2018 than some crappy old Chinatown.

[10023]

Originally Posted by jd3189

Oh, you guys wanted similarities in built form to the native country? Well, I wasn't looking at it that way since it's expected that American cities have a distinct look from those in Europe, Asia, etc.

But built form is only part of the story. What really makes an ethnic neighborhood similar to the country it's based on is the businesses, cultural offerings, way people live, signage, etc. This was much stronger in the past when the immigrants newly arrived to these areas.

Because of difference in legal codes, etc, I don’t think there ever was much similarity. People brought certain foods, customs etc from home, but no part of NYC was ever really like Italy, etc.

[montréaliste]

I think that Montreal neighborhoods where Italians of second or third generation built new forms in the fifties and sixties have maybe a better resemblance to the old country than the older inesnthey settled in. The idea of wealth in the White brick duplexes with marble and terrazzo flooring was not a replica but an adapted reality in the context of Canadian circumstances. The example of Lille and Montreal similarities in the red brick vernacular are pretty good, a Northern French immigrant will not feel "dépaysé" in that context. That neighborhoodbin particular now has become very French.

[10023]

I don’t really think Quebec feels anything like France either. It speaks the same language (roughly), but so does Senegal or Martinique.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by jd3189

Oh, you guys wanted similarities in built form to the native country? Well, I wasn't looking at it that way since it's expected that American cities have a distinct look from those in Europe, Asia, etc.


But built form is only part of the story. What really makes an ethnic neighborhood similar to the country it's based on is the businesses, cultural offerings, way people live, signage, etc. This was much stronger in the past when the immigrants newly arrived to these areas.

It's all of that. Culture is certainly important, but I work with a bunch of Indians and Chinese who keep their culture, but live in houses just like mine or my parents'. They live in suburban subdivisions like anyone else. They shop at the same stores. So, having architectural elements from home, or signs in native tongues, and so on enhance ethnic neighborhoods if someone is looking for a foreign experience.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 10023

I don’t really think Quebec feels anything like France either. It speaks the same language (roughly), but so does Senegal or Martinique.

It's a bit of an apples and oranges thing though.

Ethnically Quebec is obviously way more French than the other two, with Monsieur Dupont and Madame Dubois types making up the majority of the population.

Martinique of course, is more French administratively as it is a département that is part of France itself.

And most of the population of Senegal is not even natively "francophone".

[jtown,man]

Eagle Pass Texas has areas where you could be tricked into thinking youre in Mexico. Even the political billboards were in Spanish, and *only* in Spanish.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's a bit of an apples and oranges thing though.

Ethnically Quebec is obviously way more French than the other two, with Monsieur Dupont and Madame Dubois types making up the majority of the population.

Martinique of course, is more French administratively as it is a département that is part of France itself.

And most of the population of Senegal is not even natively "francophone".

Is any part of the Francophonie outside France (and France's territorial possessions) and French Canada, and maybe Haiti (if you count French and French Creole) "natively" francophone?

For the English language, some people have modeled the Anglophone world as consisting as a series of concentric rings with Anglophone native speakers spreading their influence outward.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...n_of_Englishes

First, an "inner circle" where most speak English natively (eg. the British Isles, Canada, Australia and NZ, South Africa), then the "outer circle" like India or Nigeria, where it's widely used as a second language or lingua franca and taught in schools but mostly not spoken natively (or in some cases natively only by a small fraction of wealthy, westernized elite), and then the "expanding circle" where English has no historical, colonial or official role, but people are learning it or being exposed to it from globalization.

In some cases, like Singapore (where an Asian language itself, or else the English-based creole "Singlish" is the mother tongue of many) or Jamaica (where the creole or patois is the mother tongue of many), the country might straddle or be shifting towards being part of the inner circle of English, from the outer the way that say Ireland did, when it transitioned from mostly Irish speakers who also used English to the Irish language mostly lost, leaving only a populace that has English spoken with an Irish accent.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Is any part of the Francophonie outside France (and France's territorial possessions) and French Canada, and maybe Haiti (if you count French and French Creole) "natively" francophone?

.

Well there is francophone Belgium and francophone Switzerland which are as natively francophone as any part of France.

As for Haiti it's not a bad example but it's quite a bit less natively francophone than its closest anglo counterpart, Jamaica, is natively English speaking.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

For the English language, some people have modeled the Anglophone world as consisting as a series of concentric rings with Anglophone native speakers spreading their influence outward.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...n_of_Englishes

First, an "inner circle" where most speak English natively (eg. the British Isles, Canada, Australia and NZ, South Africa), then the "outer circle" like India or Nigeria, where it's widely used as a second language or lingua franca and taught in schools but mostly not spoken natively (or in some cases natively only by a small fraction of wealthy, westernized elite), and then the "expanding circle" where English has no historical, colonial or official role, but people are learning it or being exposed to it from globalization.

In some cases, like Singapore (where an Asian language itself, or else the English-based creole "Singlish" is the mother tongue of many) or Jamaica (where the creole or patois is the mother tongue of many), the country might straddle or be shifting towards being part of the inner circle of English, from the outer the way that say Ireland did, when it transitioned from mostly Irish speakers who also used English to the Irish language mostly lost, leaving only a populace that has English spoken with an Irish accent.

Most of the Francophonie countries are similar with French to what you find with English in countries like India.

There are some exceptions like Côte-d'Ivoire which is kind of like the Singapore of the Francophonie where a high percentage of the population uses French in their daily lives, including in family life. This is especially true in the capital Abidjan.

In terms of France's former colonial empire, Quebec is the only thing that is really equivalent to the US, (Anglo-)Canada, Australia, NZ in that it has a large number of people with origins in the old country still living in the old country's language and with some of the old country's customs and culture.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well there is francophone Belgium and francophone Switzerland which are as natively francophone as any part of France.

Eh, depends where. Brussels and environs certainly aren't "native francophone". Certain Flemish and German districts in Belgium have been converted to French. Even much of NE France (around Lille) was Flemish.

But this gets into a host of issues that makes Canada's language issues seem like nothing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Eh, depends where. Brussels and environs certainly aren't "native francophone". Certain Flemish and German districts in Belgium have been converted to French. Even much of NE France (around Lille) was Flemish.

But this gets into a host of issues that makes Canada's language issues seem like nothing.

I don't know what your definition of "native" would be then. To me "native" doesn't mean it's mean francophone forever, but rather the it's that most people at the moment use language X in most aspects of their everyday lives.

The Brussels region has been primarily francophone in everyday life for about 150 years at least.

[CaliNative]

Some of the old Spanish/Mexican pueblo villages & towns between ABQ and s Santa Fe NM are authentically Mexican, with a smattering of Indian pueblos like Taos. Many go back 200 or 300 years or more. But the people have iPhones, but many do in Mexico as well. The world is converging.

Parts of the area around Coney Island in NYC do feel like "Moscow on the Hudson", complete with a Russian "mafia". L.A. also has some Russian enclaves. And lots of Persian and Armenian areas too. But the Persians and Armenians have melted in and almost all speak English and are quite prosperous, although some of the old customs persist. A large swath of the san Gabriel Valley is dominated by Chinese immigrants, and there are some great Chinese restaurants there with real authentic food. Chinese is heard as much as English.

Parts of L.A. and San Diego are Mexican and Central American in language and culture, although the built form is American. Koreatown and Little Saigon in OC are hybrids.