Canada's Panamerica Identity

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by theman23

I don't think anyone would characterize Waterloo as "menacing". The difference between the two towns is so minor from a safety point of view, that any difference in perception could be chalked up to an unlucky experience.

Anyways, you're taking an absurdly literal interpretation of rousseau's argument here. Sleepy little college enclaves aside, his point is largely true. Maybe you'll come to agree if you bring it up with the locals.

He clearly stated that it was a common denominator throughout the US. And that much is wrong.

Waterloo definitely had some questionable characters that would come from poor areas in Kitchener and Cambridge. There would also be fights breaking out at the clubs and bars nearly every Thursday night. You just don't see that as much here. But partly I think it's just because the student body here is considerably brighter. And you don't get the locals coming in to the town as much, since its not as joined to nearby towns.

That said, my point is not to throw Waterloo under the bus. Loved my time there and felt safe. Ann Arbor is better in every single way though, including the university itself.

Again, you say shit like, from San Francisco to Alabama one thing that unites America is racial tension, gun violence, and ubiquitous menace in the night time.... well, that's just not true. It's jingoistic Canadian anti-Americanism.

I agree all those negative traits exist to a greater extent, in aggregate, in the US. But there are places in the US that are better than places in Canada by those very measures, even if they are few.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

and the Canada side of the border is much more urban-oriented, wealthier, and more liberal.

This is true. But partly this is because Americans view the land adjacent to Canada as some of the worst real estate in the country. It is very cold. As a consequence of having better land to occupy, it is rural, too. Conversely, most Canadians live adjacent to the US border because that land is Canada's prime land. It is the warmest that Canada has.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Good point.

Americans don't view their complex health care system -- a mix of coverage received from state, federal, philanthropic, religious, school, employer, and private sources that varies state by state -- to be a unifying or essential component of American culture.

Americans don't think, after football, what defines us is our complex health care system, that varying mixture of state, federal, philanthropic, religious, school, employer, and private source system.

Moreover, there are diverse points of view in the US on health care -- including a very substantial percentage that support universal health care. Not to mention that 1/3 of Americans are on government provided health insurance, and it will climb to 1/2 by 2022.

In fact, I think few countries do this. Canada is an exception. Many Canadians do point to the public health care system as a defining aspect of what it means to be Canadian. Whether this suggests that Canadians are scrounging at the bottom of a barrel for unique cultural traits or genuinely value health care more than other societies when it comes to defining themselves is up for debate, I suppose.

The health care system is a symbol of Canadian's sense of fairness and egalitarianism. I know you're trying to be mocking, but by reducing it to technicalities you're missing the point. Our national identity is an expression of our collective values, and our health care system represents that.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

He clearly stated that it was a common denominator throughout the US. And that much is wrong.

Waterloo definitely had some questionable characters that would come from poor areas in Kitchener and Cambridge. There would also be fights breaking out at the clubs and bars nearly every Thursday night. You just don't see that as much here. But partly I think it's just because the student body here is considerably brighter. And you don't get the locals coming in to the town as much, since its not as joined to nearby towns.

That said, my point is not to throw Waterloo under the bus. Loved my time there and felt safe. Ann Arbor is better in every single way though, including the university itself.

Again, you say shit like, from San Francisco to Alabama one thing that unites America is racial tension, gun violence, and ubiquitous menace in the night time.... well, that's just not true. It's jingoistic Canadian anti-Americanism.

I agree all those negative traits exist to a greater extent, in aggregate, in the US. But there are places in the US that are better than places in Canada by those very measures, even if they are few.

Well, as long as you understand that you're comparing a university town to an actual city region.

And of course, the University of Michigan is one of the top universities in the world. Waterloo is a good school, but the student population is going to obviously be a bit different.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by theman23

Well, as long as you understand that you're comparing a university town to an actual city region.

And of course, the University of Michigan is one of the top universities in the world. Waterloo is a good school, but the student population is going to obviously be a bit different.

University of Michigan was also founded more than a century before UofWaterloo. It makes a difference.

[saffronleaf]

Don't get me wrong, I loved Waterloo (the school and the K-W area).

Point is that there are exceptions to the negative characteristics described by rousseau. It is not, as he stated, a common denominator.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

The US is thoroughly a mixed market economy with extensive regulations. I 100% grant that many of those regulations are not optimal. They are the product of compromises between numerous groups (some of which really should not have as much influence as they do, like corporations) and systemic gridlock. But the US is extensively regulated. There's no free market.

Well, I don't think there can be a free market in health care in the same way most people understand the market for, say, spoons. For one thing you can't consent to being provided with health care in a lot of cases and you're often not in a position to negotiate in the first place. I didn't claim the US has a free market for health care and I think anybody who proposes a free market for health care should be viewed with great suspicion.

My point was more about how people think about these issues and how public discussions proceed. There seems to be a marked difference between Canada and the US. This part I guess is debatable.

I also disagree that regulations etc. can be disentangled from culture. I pointed this out in a previous post. The platonic ideal of culture completely detached from government regulation and economic pressure is nonsense. There are no examples of this in the world, only instances where we've forgotten why people started thinking a certain way. If people think that their folk dancing or whatever is a true reflection of the way they view the world but their government is not, well, they're just not very perceptive.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Living in Michigan right now. I don't know one hunter. In fact, I've met more vegans and vegetarians here than I ever did while growing up in Ontario.

Originally Posted by theman23

Congratulations, you live in a college town.

Um, yeah. Ann Arbor is one of the most liberal patches of real estate in the entire country.

Do I really have to explain that there are exceptions to generalizations? I would have thought that to be understood. Aren't you a graduate student of some sort?

I think you're just pushing back against my general animus to the U.S. Well, sorry, that's not going to change. But I'm no "jingoistic" Canadian. I'm not patriotic at all. In fact, I hate the very idea of patriotism. Excessive love for an abstraction like a country verges on the psychotic, and brings out the worst in people.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Good point.

Americans don't view their complex health care system -- a mix of coverage received from state, federal, philanthropic, religious, school, employer, and private sources that varies state by state -- to be a unifying or essential component of American culture.

Americans don't think, after football, what defines us is our complex health care system, that varying mixture of state, federal, philanthropic, religious, school, employer, and private source system.

Moreover, there are diverse points of view in the US on health care -- including a very substantial percentage that support universal health care. Not to mention that 1/3 of Americans are on government provided health insurance, and it will climb to 1/2 by 2022.

In fact, I think few countries do this. Canada is an exception. Many Canadians do point to the public health care system as a defining aspect of what it means to be Canadian. Whether this suggests that Canadians are scrounging at the bottom of a barrel for unique cultural traits or genuinely value health care more than other societies when it comes to defining themselves is up for debate, I suppose.

A few years ago the CBC ran a greatest Canadian program and the winner was Tommy Douglas, widely regarded as the father of medicare. I found that was an interesting choice. Obviously a great man but it speaks to how Canadians view universal health care as a national definer (likely because they see it as a problematic issue in the US). I wonder if Americans would pick John Dewey or Horace Mann (education) or Einsenhower (interstate highways) as the greatest American, given that what they did also had a big impact on the country and people's lives.

[manny_santos]

I'm late to this discussion and haven't read through every page of posts, but my take: I feel more in common with the United States than I do with Quebec. This is because of shared popular culture, our language, and the fact that most of the people I do business with are in the United States. Whenever I go into Quebec, I feel like I'm in another country, but when I go into New York or Michigan, I feel like I'm near home. But that's only me, as one Canadian.

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I wonder if Americans would pick John Dewey or Horace Mann (education) or Einsenhower (interstate highways) as the greatest American, given that what they did also had a big impact on the country and people's lives.

I can see Eisenhower. Pretty convincing actually. Not so much the other two.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Calgarians had a weird pseudo american drawl when I visited. It was like a mix of a stereotypical Canadian accent and the deep south. It was weird.

You're on crack.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Um, yeah. Ann Arbor is one of the most liberal patches of real estate in the entire country.

Do I really have to explain that there are exceptions to generalizations? I would have thought that to be understood. Aren't you a graduate student of some sort?

I think you're just pushing back against my general animus to the U.S. Well, sorry, that's not going to change. But I'm no "jingoistic" Canadian. I'm not patriotic at all. In fact, I hate the very idea of patriotism. Excessive love for an abstraction like a country verges on the psychotic, and brings out the worst in people.

Hmm, should we actually go back and read what you said?

"Common denominator" "throughout the US" from "SF to Alabama"... any of that ring a bell?

Don't make outlandish comments if you can't support them.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I'm late to this discussion and haven't read through every page of posts, but my take: I feel more in common with the United States than I do with Quebec. This is because of shared popular culture, our language, and the fact that most of the people I do business with are in the United States. Whenever I go into Quebec, I feel like I'm in another country, but when I go into New York or Michigan, I feel like I'm near home. But that's only me, as one Canadian.

I feel at home in both. The differences are pretty minor, apart from language in the case of Quebec.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I'm late to this discussion and haven't read through every page of posts, but my take: I feel more in common with the United States than I do with Quebec. This is because of shared popular culture, our language, and the fact that most of the people I do business with are in the United States. Whenever I go into Quebec, I feel like I'm in another country, but when I go into New York or Michigan, I feel like I'm near home. But that's only me, as one Canadian.

Kinda mirrors my observations, but at the same time I'll add that Anglo North America doesn't feel that foreign either. And it's a bit of a continuum; the further I go, the least I feel like I'm "home". On the West Coast or the Great Plains I'll feel less at home than in NH or Ontario or Vermont. But the "cultural shock" is very mild.

I think I could easily make any place in Anglo North America my permanent home, though, while I can't say the same for Europe, even the francophone areas of it.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Hmm, should we actually go back and read what you said?

"Common denominator" "throughout the US" from "SF to Alabama"... any of that ring a bell?

Don't make outlandish comments if you can't support them.

You can hunt wildfowl in San Francisco Bay. Okay? You can get a permit to take your rifle to parts of San Francisco Bay to shoot at birds.

You know how I know that? Because I did a 2.2 second Google search on hunting in San Francisco.

Now try to imagine anyone hunting ducks anywhere along Lake Ontario in the Golden Horseshoe.

Are we really going to argue about what "common denominator" means in the context of a discussion?

Ann Arbor might not have so many hunters as the countryside surrounding it. It could be "a liberal oasis surrounded by reality," as my sister says people describe many college towns in the U.S. Though another 2.2 second Google search produced a news article about culling the deer population in Ann Arbor, in which the follow sentence appeared:

"Kunselman said a lot of hunters in Ann Arbor would volunteer..."

No need to finish the sentence. "A lot of hunters in Ann Arbor"? Interesting. What does that suggest? That even a liberal oasis such as Ann Arbor has people hunting? Another Google search produced a U.S. government site with an article on hunting on the Detroit River.

Now try to imagine reading a sentence anywhere in which the phrase "a lot of hunters in Waterloo/Toronto/Hamilton" etc. refers to anything other than job placement services or dating sites.

[mistercorporate]

I think its quite ridiculous that Ann Arbor is defended as a regular American small town when it is in fact one of the richest small towns on the continent. How many puny little college towns can claim to have several billionaire residents? The Ford family is based there. When I worked in that town, I did not see one single bus, or greasy spoon diner (they probably existed but couldn'thave been numerous to escape my attention), it was all sit down restaurants and fancy malls, it was all consciously planned sprawl with no organic connection to the black suburbs near it. You wouldn't know you're just 20 mins drive from a violent wasteland with a completely different demography. And that's just the black neighbourhoods, I'm not even going to mention the small Michigan militia style outposts (it is after all traditional klan country). And yes, there were the ubiquitous blowhards as well as sweet and kind people.

[kool maudit]

plus the velociraptors.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Kinda mirrors my observations, but at the same time I'll add that Anglo North America doesn't feel that foreign either. And it's a bit of a continuum; the further I go, the least I feel like I'm "home". On the West Coast or the Great Plains I'll feel less at home than in NH or Ontario or Vermont. But the "cultural shock" is very mild.

I think I could easily make any place in Anglo North America my permanent home, though, while I can't say the same for Europe, even the francophone areas of it.

It kind of depends for what for me.

For getting my bearings and settled in, then sure anywhere in Canada or the US would be more user friendly for me. Getting my driver's licence, paying my taxes, etc. Registering my kids for school and activities. Buying a house. All of that for sure.

For shooting the shit about life in general over a beer or a glass of wine, though, hanging out with people from France or Wallonia or Suisse romande is often a more ''let my hair down'' type of feeling for me than with other North Americans. It's even also true of some other non-francophone Europeans for me.

Not that I feel uneasy with other Canadians or Americans, but if we are talking about where I feel like I fit in the most, I am likely more relaxed and myself with a bunch of Swedes or Finns even, than with people from Saskatchewan or Nebraska.

EDIT: Of course, I have had and still have enjoyable times and even friendships with many Canadians from all over and Americans too, but it's just that if it's a roll of the dice type of situation, I'll take my chances with a random Frenchman or Dutchman over a random Albertan or Nevadan when it comes to things ''clicking'' during the evening. And this in spite of the fact that I'd likely have more cultural reference markers in common with the latter two.

[BretttheRiderFan]

As a born and raised Albertan, I have never felt anywhere but "at home" in Quebec and anywhere else in this country. Now, LA? New York? DC? Pretty much any large city in America that I've visited has felt more foreign to me than Montreal or Quebec, and I can't really pinpoint why. There's a certain vibe and edginess there that hits me personally that I don't feel in Montreal. I don't really get it in rural America at all, but then again I've only visited the rural north of the US. This is just me though. This isn't to say that I haven't enjoyed my travels in the US and don't have plenty of American friends (mainly online), because I do.