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  #3741  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2018, 4:41 AM
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05/31/18



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  #3742  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2018, 9:03 AM
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Originally Posted by PittsburghPA View Post
On another note, I've always looked at how NYC projects are almost always curtain wall and Chicago projects are almost always window wall. Is that just due to higher profile buildings/more money to be spent? I didn't think it could get much higher profile than Vista. If done right this building can be world class.
Yes, many more NYC high rises use curtain wall. There are a few factors I think... the rent and sale prices are much higher in a NYC. At 432 Park, the sale price of the very top end penthouses are $10k/SF versus maybe $2k/SF at No 9 Walton (guessing on this one as I don't recall the cost/SF on KG's penthouse). This allows a developer to pay more for their facade and finishes in NYC than they can in Chicago and still make a good return.

Also, a lot of NYC buildings are taller. Window wall has traditionally been used on shorter high rises, call it 700' - 800' or less generally. When you get above those heights you typically want a higher performing curtainwall system.

Chicago also is fortunate to be home to very competitive window wall contractors. Because of the amount of competition here, the cost of window wall is lower than most other places across the US including some non-union areas in the south. Some of the Chicago players travel for higher margins elsewhere because there is less competition, but here at home the window wall product is very cost effective which is also why we see so much of it here.
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  #3743  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2018, 2:43 PM
Notyrview Notyrview is offline
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Originally Posted by BVictor1 View Post
05/31/18

Nice shot. Got to see this in person over the weekend biking along the lakefront and was pretty wowed by its curves. Such a dynamic building, probably the most sculptural supertall in the US when it's complete.

Edit: Biking over the river after 400 Lake Shore is complete is going to be so fucking sickening

Last edited by Notyrview; Jun 5, 2018 at 2:54 PM.
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  #3744  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2018, 4:18 PM
sox102 sox102 is offline
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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
You are correct that the spandrel panels are not failing the tests, but the main windows are, repeatedly (!).

For clarification, this is not a curtain wall, but a cheap window system. The same window manufacturer that was used on another Magellan project, Exhibit over on LaSalle...

The glass, and the glass manufacturer is not the problem either.

The problem is with the window frames. The manufacturer of the windows has been forced to design and develop new dies to manufacture a new window system with new extrusions....

Who'd ever thought you would have a problem using a cheap existing window system on a super tall with an uniquely convoluted envelope...
Thanks McHugh.
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  #3745  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2018, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BVictor1 View Post
05/31/18



Nice photos - western core appears to be at 57th-58th level
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  #3746  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2018, 5:16 PM
Skyguy_7 Skyguy_7 is offline
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Thanks to a previous posters about the glass situation. I drove past today and noticed 3 levels of glass on the Wacker side. I thought they were stalled weeks ago after the 1st level of panes. Progress?
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  #3747  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2018, 9:37 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Turns out the frustrums have virtually no significant effect on the need for the blow through, sheer walls, or tuned dampers:

http://www.structuremag.org/?p=13221


Quote:
Resisting these north-south wind loads proved to be the most significant structural challenge of the project and the most impactful to the hotel and residential unit layouts. Creating a north-south lateral system with a stance close to 12:1 required activating the entire building width. One common solution to this problem is to use a series of outriggers extending from the core to exterior columns at discreet elevations, engaging them in the global system. These outriggers are often multi-story concrete walls or steel trusses and can be very disruptive to unit planning and construction sequencing and regularity. In addition, to achieve the stiffness that is sought by this widened footprint, the exterior columns typically need to be much larger than other tower columns. A study of this core and outrigger solution revealed a requirement for 10-foot square columns in order to reach the target building stiffness.

An alternate approach was taken to activate the full width of the tower in bracing the building, which was less disruptive to unit planning than the 10-foot-square column option. From the foundation to Level 71, buttress walls extend from the Western core to encapsulate units on the building exterior. This geometry creates a multi-cell core reaching across the full building width. Since the buttress walls extend over many successive levels rather than at discreet outrigger elevations, they can be perforated in many locations, allowing for corridor circulation through the walls at every level and large window openings through the exterior walls.
The article goes on to talk about how the frustrums ended up having a negligible effect on the engineering of this structure. The shapes are gradual enough that it doesn't really function much different than a normal collum on the corners. The sheer walls are only where they are because the building is too narrow for a core and outrigger design like Trump tower. The outrigger collums would have to have 15'x15' to have the same effect as the sheer walls in the end product.
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  #3748  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2018, 11:52 PM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Turns out the frustrums have virtually no significant effect on the need for the blow through, sheer walls, or tuned dampers:

http://www.structuremag.org/?p=13221

The article goes on to talk about how the frustrums [sic] ended up having a negligible effect on the engineering of this structure. The shapes are gradual enough that it doesn't really function much different than a normal collum [sic] on the corners. The sheer walls are only where they are because the building is too narrow for a core and outrigger design like Trump tower. The outrigger collums [sic] would have to have 15'x15' to have the same effect as the sheer walls in the end product.
I'm not so sure about that... after all, the whole point of the article was to address the many challenges the frustums presented to the structural engineers. Although it is certainly true that the article didn't state that the frustums didn't necessarily have a documented direct relationship to the need for the dampers or the blow-through, it was only after very intensive wind-tunnel testing with this specific massing did they determine what the exact figures were to achieve the 'comfort' needs at the top of this tower... From the same article:

"[a] … solution was explored where column locations follow the tapering building exterior, shifting at every floor and remaining tight to the façade. With column axial loads as great as 15,000 kips at the base, the implication of shifting columns presented real challenges to global stability and building balance.

This geometry ultimately proved viable, incorporating column horizontal offsets of approximately 5 inches at every level… at the top and bottom of each frustum, where the direction of column stepping reverses. This required a significant lateral restoring force at that elevation, supplied by the floor slab.

At frustum wide points, the induced force is an outward pull on the slab, felt in two directions at corner columns… At frustum narrow points, the equilibrating force compresses the slab… The developer’s goal of maximizing clear height and having clean slab soffits meant this P-delta problem needed to be solved without adding beams or other thickened elements that would conventionally carry compression. Analyzing these slabs as compression elements, while considering the gravity deflections and slab post-tensioning as initial conditions, revealed an arrangement of supplemental reinforcement necessary to keep these elements stable.

Another critical design decision, stemming from having 100 unique floor plans [defined almost wholly by the structural, not the architectural plan], was determining how much granularity to apply to the detailing of the slab reinforcement (rebar, post-tensioning tendons, and studrails). The most optimized design suggested every level entailed a unique design, perfectly matched to the spans. However, the resulting volume of details would create a massive burden on the contractor to manage shop drawings, fabrication, storage, placement, and special inspection unique to each level.

The other extreme would be to apply the design for the worst-case slab, the widest level and longest spans, to all levels in that frustum. This solution would be both overly wasteful of material and would create an overload of load-balancing from the post-tensioning tendons when applied to the short-span levels.

The chosen design approach hit the mid-point between these competing interests of optimization and constructability. Each 13-story block of slabs is broken into three designs, considering small, medium, and large span levels separately. Other than the 20 levels of hotel, parking, and mechanical use, the remaining 80 levels are covered by just 18 unique slab designs."

The article also states the exterior columns anchoring the 'outrigger' shear walls would actually need to be 10' square... still too big of course.

Anyway, it is a very interesting read and certainly goes into some detail that the frustum massing had on the engineering not to mention the unit planning... as we have already discovered with many of these floor plans, we can all see the effect the structure has on the function of this building. I would still love to see a plan comparison of the same unit tier at the narrowest frustum floor, one with the removal of 5'(!!) around its perimeter with the same layout.

I remember seeing earlier bKL schemes (where this 3 tower scheme originated, I believe) where the two end towers had a structural exoskeleton that resolved all of the shear forces... hmmm. It was kind of an elegant solution for a Chicago supertall (champion of structural expressionism)...
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  #3749  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2018, 12:19 AM
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So are they still going to use 6 dampers on the top frustrum or will the blow through be suffice?

Or both?
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  #3750  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2018, 12:22 AM
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^Both, according to this article...
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  #3751  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2018, 3:15 PM
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Last edited by Knightwing; Jun 6, 2018 at 3:29 PM.
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  #3752  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2018, 5:29 PM
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Edit: Oops, this was just posted. I should have looked a few posts up ha.

The Engineering Behind Vista Tower's Unique Shape: Stacked Frustums Create Chicago’s Newest Super-Tall Tower

Saw that ^ on Reddit. (Sorry if it has already been posted). I thought it was very interesting. It discuses the reason for the design change to include the wind break floor among other things.



Liquid damper layout



Shear wall plan
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  #3753  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2018, 10:17 PM
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Quick fact:
Chicago was the first to build a tower in the U.S. with a tuned mass damper(Park Tower)!

Vista will be using slush bucket type tho wich is too bad since i personaly love the one on the Taipei 101!
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  #3754  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2018, 6:23 AM
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[QUOTE=LouisVanDerWright;8209087]They are probably working out some kinks, but they have been making steady progress capping the floorplates, if you look at the most recent pictures you will see at least 10-15 floors have been capped. I have a feeling that what we are really seeing is a staging lag where they want to let the time consuming process of building what is essentially hundreds of tiny little roofs where each floorplate moves outwards get well ahead of the main panes being placed.

Thanks for the reply but whilst installing the slab-edge covers is progressing this is not really doing justice to the overall facade progress. In my experience and opinion this quite alarming delay in the facade would have gone legal by now. Hoping whoever is involved gets across the line.
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  #3755  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2018, 6:27 AM
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Originally Posted by PittsburghPA View Post
I have also heard this from a friend in the curtain wall industry. The entire project finish date will most likely be delayed. It is indeed alarming.

On another note, I've always looked at how NYC projects are almost always curtain wall and Chicago projects are almost always window wall. Is that just due to higher profile buildings/more money to be spent? I didn't think it could get much higher profile than Vista. If done right this building can be world class.
Yep, Chicago is for sure a boom town right now but they do go a lot for the window wall facade rather than curtainwall. I hear the rates are ridiculously low and most top tier curtainwallers steer clear.
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  #3756  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2018, 9:37 AM
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Originally Posted by HiRiser View Post
Yep, Chicago is for sure a boom town right now but they do go a lot for the window wall facade rather than curtainwall. I hear the rates are ridiculously low and most top tier curtainwallers steer clear.
They both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Found this for you.._hope it helps
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=143090
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  #3757  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2018, 11:35 AM
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^ Thanks that was interesting.

Does anyone have a photo comparison of the two systems? Something that would help to identify each, and also distinguish between inherent features of the façade system versus idiosyncratic features of an architect’s work?

edit: this seems like a decent summary as well... https://www.lenmak.com/curtain-window-wall/
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  #3758  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2018, 11:47 AM
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Yeah, if someone can post a video of the comparison that would be great, cuz I'm confused as hell between the two.
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  #3759  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2018, 1:55 PM
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I think one of the biggest differences between the two systems is that curtain wall almost always requires a crane to install, whereas a window wall can be installed from the interior... crane time is insanely expensive...
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  #3760  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2018, 2:06 PM
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^^^ Excellent link. Makes total sense. Window Wall: windows are the wall, mullions acting as studs, essentially, with floor slabs exposed. Curtain Wall: glass is draped over the building. Drapery=curtains.

SoMi Tower: Curtain Wall
NEMA Tower: Window wall
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