Transit Fantasies

[cganuelas1995]

When it comes to the double-tracking of the section between Lansdowne and Richmond-Brighouse, I wonder if it would be feasible to, say, stage every precast and prefabricated part on roads around the area and put in a SkyBridge bus and detour any bus route on the affected roads, do the work, and then put the Canada Line back to full service, using only one platform of Richmond-Brighouse while the second one is built.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Sheba

You had a better opinion of the Surrey proposal than I did then...

I don't mind LRT with "very little interaction with vehicular traffic" - in fact I doubt we'd get a line that's completely separated (and then yes we might as well go with Skytrain). Having it unbarricaded on the street with vehicles is what I'm against.

Another possible location would be along Railway Ave in Richmond. Personally I think we should be looking at the suburbs as that's where we'll find some corridors with space to include a rail line.

I agree with this. If you're going to just have it in the street, might as well save money and have a BRT line instead.

[cganuelas1995]

Extend the N10 to Steveston via No. 3, Granville, Railway, and Moncton, terminating at the possible future Steveston Exchange.

[AkariAkaza]

Fantasy Transit map I made! (Yes, I know some of it isn't very realistic)

Skytrain

Millennium Line
- Extended to UBC and Port Coquitlam

Canada Line
- Double tracked to Richmond-Brighouse

Burrard Line
- Provides relief to the Canada Line by giving an alternative route to and from YVR
- Provides a rail Link to the North Shore bringing relief to congestion on the two vehicle bridge crossings
- The alignment under the Burrard inlet was inspired by Waves' post on page 75!

Hastings Line
- Provides a direct connection between Oakridge, Metrotown, and Brentwood
- Brings rapid transit to Kerrisdale, the West End, Stanley Park, and the PNE

Surrey Line
- Replaces the current R1 Rapidbus
- Provides better rapid transit for the growing Surrey area
- Connects Surrey Central with two commuter rail lines

Capilano Line
- East-West rapid transit link for the north Shore, connecting West Vancouver, North Vancouver, and Capilano U
- Transfer stations to the Fraser Line and Burrard Line

Commuter Rail

West Coast Line
- Improved West Coast Express, running all day in both directions

Fraser Line
- Connects Metro Vancouver with the Fraser Valley, with a eastern terminus in Chilliwack
- Runs under the road between Cloverdale and Mt Lehman Rd in Abbotsford, continues above ground along South Fraser Way and McCallum, and then at grade along Hwy 1 to Chilliwack
- Provides a more direct route, instead of the old interurban alignment proposed by some.

Delta Line
- Connects YVR and Richmond with the Tsawwassen ferry terminal, Newton, South Surrey, and White Rock
- Transfer station to the Fraser Line allows rail transit for people living in Langley, Abbotsford and Chilliwack to YVR and BC Ferries
- Two spurs, one going to BC Ferries and Tsawwassen, and the other terminating in South Surrey

These Commuter Rail lines would use the E235 Series, used on the Yamanote Line in Japan, as rolling stock instead of the current ones used on the West Coast Express. These ones would have a faster acceleration/de-acceleration speeds. This rolling stock would be better than Skytrain, as they have a higher maximum speed (120km/h). It would also be faster because the stations are further apart than Skytrain stations.

Light Rail
- LRT follows the old rail corridor on Arbutus St., goes under a short tunnel under Hwy. 99 and W 4th Ave., and then follows the old Olympic Line route terminating at Main St.-Science World Skytrain Station.

Rapid Bus
- All of the current Rapidbus routes have been replaced by rail in this map, so the names correspond to different lines, so refer to the Map to see what they are
-R1 Connects SFU to the Hastings Skytrain Line
-R2 Connects Steveston to downtown Richmond
-R3 Connects Fleetwood to Surrey Central and Clayton Heights to Langley Centre (I didn't make an Expo Line extension to Langley Centre because of the Fraser Line)
-R4 Connects Langley Centre with Walnut Grove and Maple Ridge
-R5 Improves frequency on a busy bus route

Gondola
-Connects SFU to Production Way-University Skytrain Station.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by AkariAkaza

Fantasy Transit map I made! (Yes, I know some of it isn't very realistic)

Some interesting ideas. The cost of laying rail is expensive so it's a safe bet (unless someone like Elon Musk becomes infatuated with the region) that RapidBus won't be replaced by Commuter rail this century.

It's also the reason the WCE hasn't been upgraded to all day bi-directional service as TransLink doesn't own the rails (and even with the limited time they get it's still regularly delayed by freight). Your Fraser Line looks a lot like the Interurban that gets debunked and trashed every time it starts making the rounds in the news.

I'm guessing you've seen this about planned B-Lines (now RapidBus) - if you haven't you might find it interesting.

It's safer to keep Skytrain in a straight line - aka chopping your Hastings Line into two or three lines. That way if one section goes down the rest will still be able to run.

I hope you've filled in the Gondola survey.

[chowhou]

Just some for fun counter-counter-arguments

Originally Posted by Sheba

Some interesting ideas. The cost of laying rail is expensive so it's a safe bet (unless someone like Elon Musk becomes infatuated with the region) that RapidBus won't be replaced by Commuter rail this century.

On the contrary, it seems like Translink's policy is to replace RapidBus (B-Line) lines with Skytrain. You see that with the former 97 and 98 B-Lines, and the gradually shortening 99 B-Line. The R1/95 B-Line was also one of the LRT study zones. It only makes sense, once you reach peak road capacity for asphalt you upgrade to steel.

It's safer to keep Skytrain in a straight line - aka chopping your Hastings Line into two or three lines. That way if one section goes down the rest will still be able to run.

The Millenium Line went in a circle for many many years, it's not unreasonable to have a strange geometries if they make sense.

I hope you've filled in the Gondola survey.

Please do!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Just some for fun counter-counter-arguments

On the contrary, it seems like Translink's policy is to replace RapidBus (B-Line) lines with Skytrain. You see that with the former 97 and 98 B-Lines, and the gradually shortening 99 B-Line. The R1/95 B-Line was also one of the LRT study zones. It only makes sense, once you reach peak road capacity for asphalt you upgrade to steel.

The Millenium Line went in a circle for many many years, it's not unreasonable to have a strange geometries if they make sense.

Please do!

I specifically mentioned Commuter rail - not Skytrain. The lines as drawn would be on-ground rail similar to WCE.

When it was set up like that every time the Skytrain went down it was chaos until they would temporarily split the lines apart to run similar to the way they do now. Then it was only the Expo or Millennium Line that would be down and not both of them.

I hope you fill out the survey too.

[AkariAkaza]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It's also the reason the WCE hasn't been upgraded to all day bi-directional service as TransLink doesn't own the rails (and even with the limited time they get it's still regularly delayed by freight).

Yes, in my fantasy the rail between the Port and Mission would be owned by translink. The excess freight rail traffic would be diverted through other routes, which would be double tracked (if possible) to accommodate increased traffic. Expanding the Port in Delta would also help.

Your Fraser Line looks a lot like the Interurban that gets debunked and trashed every time it starts making the rounds in the news.

I think the only similarities between mine and that proposal is that it follows the same alignment in Surrey. Mine is different because it is a direct route, instead of all the turns that proposal makes. My Fraser Line also is a different rolling stock, I think the proposal for that one has been light rail or hydrogen. My Fraser Line also goes further than Scott Road in Surrey, with stations at Lougheed Town Centre, Burnaby, Hastings/PNE, and Phibbs exchange.

I'm guessing you've seen this about planned B-Lines (now RapidBus) - if you haven't you might find it interesting.

Yes, it was interesting! Hopefully we can hear some more news about them as we get closer to the end of the year.

I hope you've filled in the Gondola survey.

I did

As for your other points I agree with what chowhou said.

[officedweller]

Any particular reason why your Surrey Skytrain Line is the L-line rather than the Fraser Highway line that is now the preferred build-out?

[AkariAkaza]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Any particular reason why your Surrey Skytrain Line is the L-line rather than the Fraser Highway line that is now the preferred build-out?

Because I chose to have commuter rail instead. I think commuter rail would be a better choice for Langley because it would be faster, so it would be better for longer distance trips into Burnaby and Vancouver, as Langley is far from Vancouver, I can't remember where I read it, but I read (and I checked for myself by calculating the estimated travel time between Langley Centre and Surrey Ctrl. by Skytrain and adding that with the current Travel time between Waterfront and Surrey Ctrl.) that the travel time between Langley and Waterfront would be 1 hour. I think that transit would be less compelling to car users if it took that long, because they could just drive and take Hwy 1, which is faster according to google maps. Also, Langley isn't a densely populated place, so a lot of people would have to travel to Langley Centre first, adding more time to the travel time. A commuter rail line would make up that lost time. The L line is a better option because Surrey and Guildford are more populated, so a Skytrain Line there makes more sense than one to Langley. In this scenario it would also connect Surrey Cental to my Fraser and Delta Lines. The only way I could see a Skytrain to Langley making sense would be for the people living along it in Fleetwood and Clayton Heights, and there aren't very many people living there, so I think a rapidbus makes more sense.

[officedweller]

Got it.

One thing to consider, though, is that under the Regional Growth Strategy, Surrey Central is supposed to be the metropolitan core for the South of Fraser region, so commuters from within Surrey (L-line) and from Langley and beyond (Fraser Hwy) will have Surrey Central as their final destination, not just passing through to Vancouver (and commuter rail on the old SRW line misses Surrey Central directly).
Surrey will also be densifying along the Fraser Highway corridor.

[AkariAkaza]

Originally Posted by officedweller

One thing to consider, though, is that under the Regional Growth Strategy, Surrey Central is supposed to be the metropolitan core for the South of Fraser region, so commuters from within Surrey (L-line) and from Langley and beyond (Fraser Hwy) will have Surrey Central as their final destination, not just passing through to Vancouver (and commuter rail on the old SRW line misses Surrey Central directly).

That's true, a transfer-less trip between Surrey Central and Langley Centre would be appealing for people making that trip, but people could transfer at Newton and take the L Line to Surrey Central, however I'm not sure how much longer/faster it would be compared to Skytrain on Fraser Hwy.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by AkariAkaza

...the travel time between Langley and Waterfront would be 1 hour. I think that transit would be less compelling to car users if it took that long, because they could just drive and take Hwy 1, which is faster according to google maps...

It might be possible to beat the SkyTrain downtown in off-peak travel, but during rush hour it becomes much more difficult. On top of that, the advantage with SkyTrain is an hour to read, work, listen to music, etc. versus an hour crawling in heavy traffic with added costs for parking and fuel.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by AkariAkaza

That's true, a transfer-less trip between Surrey Central and Langley Centre would be appealing for people making that trip, but people could transfer at Newton and take the L Line to Surrey Central, however I'm not sure how much longer/faster it would be compared to Skytrain on Fraser Hwy.

I was assuming 'commuter rail' would be morning and evening peaks only, so your rapid bus on Fraser Hwy would be the all-day route.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Just remember that rapid transit's supposed to enable the entire region, not just the destinations. A Whalley-Langley SkyTrain (and its mid-stations) shifts the regional bus network from spoke-hub to grid. Commuter rail, kinda, sorta, not really.

[AkariAkaza]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I was assuming 'commuter rail' would be morning and evening peaks only, so your rapid bus on Fraser Hwy would be the all-day route.

No, it runs all day. I guess I chose the wrong word

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

It might be possible to beat the SkyTrain downtown in off-peak travel, but during rush hour it becomes much more difficult. On top of that, the advantage with SkyTrain is an hour to read, work, listen to music, etc. versus an hour crawling in heavy traffic with added costs for parking and fuel.

The commuter rail sounds better, because it would be faster, so it would be less than an hour. the Expo Line has an operating speed of 80km/h, but if you used a rolling stock with higher speeds, and less stations, the trip would be shorter. Even though Skytrain would be faster in rush hour, my Fraser Line would be faster all of the time.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Just remember that rapid transit's supposed to enable the entire region, not just the destinations. A Whalley-Langley SkyTrain (and its mid-stations) shifts the regional bus network from spoke-hub to grid. Commuter rail, kinda, sorta, not really.

I think that this part of the region can be better enabled by rapid bus because of its low population density. Is a grid bus network necessary for this area?

[waves]

Originally Posted by AkariAkaza

Burrard Line
- Provides relief to the Canada Line by giving an alternative route to and from YVR
- Provides a rail Link to the North Shore bringing relief to congestion on the two vehicle bridge crossings
- The alignment under the Burrard inlet was inspired by Waves' post on page 75!

Love the North shore ideas! I think I agree with the others however on Skytrain to Langley. To add my own wacky fairy tale and pin the tail on another rainbow donkey, here is an add on to your map: A Seymour Gondola!


Source: Me. https://i.imgur.com/ipb7v9l.png?1

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...iJ&usp=sharing

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by AkariAkaza

I think that this part of the region can be better enabled by rapid bus because of its low population density. Is a grid bus network necessary for this area?

Agreed, RapidBuses and express buses are most definitely needed for most of the region, especially with all that greenspace in the middle. But I'd argue that it's easier to plan those routes so that everybody can go everywhere, instead of trying to anticipate future growth and/or commuting patterns and getting it wrong.

In this scenario, there's no real east-west rapid connections south of the Fraser, and only two north-south ones. Cloverdale, Guildford and Fleetwood (two-fifths of Metro Surrey), Walnut Grove and Fort Langley are especially overlooked in that regard; if I live in one and work/learn in another, screw it, I'm taking an Uber.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by AkariAkaza

The Expo Line has an operating speed of 80km/h, but if you used a rolling stock with higher speeds, and less stations, the trip would be shorter. Even though Skytrain would be faster in rush hour, my Fraser Line would be faster all of the time.

Possibly, but you're sacrificing use in the middle of the run - an area that will see significant growth in population over the short and long term - in favour of a suburb-downtown Vancouver focus. Not to mention, you're either bringing a "faster than SkyTrain" train across Vancouver (city) with tunnels or elevated guideways (at significant cost) or you're having to switch to existing systems to continue downtown, adding to the travel time.

[AkariAkaza]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Possibly, but you're sacrificing use in the middle of the run - an area that will see significant growth in population over the short and long term - in favour of a suburb-downtown Vancouver focus. Not to mention, you're either bringing a "faster than SkyTrain" train across Vancouver (city) with tunnels or elevated guideways (at significant cost) or you're having to switch to existing systems to continue downtown, adding to the travel time.

Middle of the run being Fleetwood and Clayton? Perhaps in future once those areas are seeing more growth, but right now, that is still early in the planning phase. I'm not focused only on transit between downtown Vancouver and the suburbs, but there are stops on my Fraser line in North Vancouver, Surrey (Newton), Cloverdale, and Lougheed Town Centre. Also with a short transfer, there is a connection to Brentwood, New Westminster, and Surrey Central. Skytrains run frequently, so transfers don't add very much time to the trip length.