What should an urbanist see in Toronto & Montreal?

[Cirrus]

Hi everyone. I'll be in TO & Montreal for a few days each in March, and I need suggestions. I know both are wonderful cities, but don't them very well. I'm not all that interested in touristy things; I want to see the city. I've been to Montreal before, but not Toronto. I'd appreciate some pointers on where I should go!

Here's what I know so far:

Montreal:
1. Le Plateau & the Old City (I've been to both before and could go again, but would also like other suggestions)
2. Mount Royal itself
3. The metro (I like transit infrastructure)

Toronto:
1. Yonge/Dundas Square
2. The subway & streetcars

That's a pretty basic list so far. What walkable urban neighborhoods are must-sees? Are there things like indie markets or particular shopping streets that I should go to? Are there particularly fantastic parks or plazas? Is there a transit museum anywhere?

All suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

[caltrane74]

Chinatown/Kensington - take the streetcar west from Yonge Dundas Square
Yorkville - take subway north from Yonge-Dundas or walk up Yonge 25 mins to Bloor
Annex - Walk west on Bloor from Yorkville to Spadina
Distillery District
Greektown on Danforth
Queen West - walk west from Eaton Center on Queen
College West - Little Italy. Take streetcar west from Yonge /College Park
Queens Quay - Harbourfront - take subway south from Y/Dundas to Union and catch one of the new streetcars from there. - Not much going on there in Winter though.

[hipster duck]

In Toronto, you can't really go wrong with exploring the neighbourhoods west of Spadina Avenue. They all sort of blend into one another, and give you a good cross-section of what urban living in that city is all about.

The east side of the city is still a mixed bag in terms of neighbourhood interest, but that's where a lot of the interesting urban redevelopment is happening. The redevelopment of the 1950s-era Regent Park housing project, as well as the emerging area around the Distillery District/Corktown is cool for design nerds.

Incidentally, are you coming for business? Do you have the opportunity to delay your trip a few months? Weather-wise March is generally the worst time of the year to visit both cities, especially compared to what the weather is like in Washington, DC. While DC has cherry blossoms and springlike temps, both Toronto and Montreal will still be at the tail end of winter, interminably grey and hovering around the freezing mark with frequent rain/sleet/snow showers.

[niwell]

Based on your posting history I know you love transit infrastructure - I would highly recommend taking the queen streetcar from Victoria Park in the east all the way west to Roncesvalles. It normally goes even further to Long Branch but that leg of the streetcar will be closed for construction in March. Montreal's metro is generally more impressive aesthetically than the subway in Toronto but Dupont station is interesting. Could also get on the streetcar at one of the integrated loops at Dundas West, Bathurst, Broadview or Main stations (I think that's all of them!).

In terms of neighbourhoods the advice above is solid. Definitely explore Kensington as it's one of the more unique areas in the country. For shopping it depends what you are into. Yorkville is high end, Queen west goes from commercial to trendy to hipster the further west you go. Walking the stretch from the Eaton Centre to Parkdale in the west (say Brock ave or so) will give you a flavour of this change. Explore the side streets for residential architecture, but unlike Montreal almost all of the commercial establishments are on main streets. Ossington Ave north of Queenalso has higher end design oriented stores.

Not sure if you are into food and drink so won't make any lists there - but if you are would be happy to give suggestions!

[lrt's friend]

And so many bypass Ottawa in between the two, which will be celebration central for Canada's sesquicentennial in 2017.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by niwell

Could also get on the streetcar at one of the integrated loops at Dundas West, Bathurst, Broadview or Main stations (I think that's all of them!).

Union, Spadina and St Clair?

[mistercorporate]

If you're really into transit infrastructure then the "Union Pearson Express" airport train, the "Airport elevated train" and the "Double decker GO Trains" may be of interest. Also, there are 3 generations of streetcars on Toronto's streets. Downsview Station is also pretty polished. Union Station is massive and integrates many modes of transport within its hub. Strange time of year to be visiting but enjoy your stay!!

[Hali87]

If you're really into esoteric transit stuff, try transferring subway lines at Spadina Station in Toronto. It's kind of inconvenient - ok, completely inconvenient - but quirky and interesting.

[Hali87]

For Montreal I'd definitely recommend Mile End (great cheap food, good shopping, hipster vibe, famous bagels), the Viau area if you're into modernism (Olympic Stadium + Biodome are near Viau Station), Rue Ste-Catherine downtown has always had a lot going on whenever I've been to Montreal (outdoor festivals, etc.)

The Toronto Islands might be worth checking out (not sure what that would be like in March though)

[niwell]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Union, Spadina and St Clair?

Whoops... for some reason I only had the above ground ones in my head. They may even be more interesting!.

[Cirrus]

Thanks very much! I really appreciate these responses. Don't stop! Some questions:

1. Is the area between Union Station & Yonge/Dundas worth spending time in, or is it just an office ghetto?

2. What's the best way to get to Markham on transit? I'm interested in the Viva "rapidway" on Highway 7. But I'll only go see it if it's easy to get to and doesn't take too long. GO to Unionville? Viva Blue line from Finch to Richmond? Something else?

3. I don't care about the interior of Casa Loma, but the gardens look interesting. Would they be worth a walk through in March?

Some responses & followup:

Originally Posted by hipster duck

you can't really go wrong with exploring the neighbourhoods west of Spadina Avenue

Thanks. Dundas/Spadina then heading into Kensington Market seems like a reasonable place to start.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Do you have the opportunity to delay your trip a few months?

It's a pleasure trip, no business, but unfortunately the dates are not flexible. The whole trip is based around an offer of unthinkably amazing free accommodations from a friend in Montreal, but we didn't get to pick the dates.

Originally Posted by niwell

I would highly recommend taking the queen streetcar from Victoria Park in the east all the way west to Roncesvalles

What's special about that stretch? I am definitely interested in checking out the streetcars, but the Spadina line seems most interesting to me because of its transitway. Or are you saying Queen because of the neighborhoods?

Originally Posted by niwell

For shopping it depends what you are into.

The shopping is mainly for my wife, but she's into independent craft and stationery. I guess I'd categorize it as hipster or quirky, definitely not high end or trendy. Places with, like, home decor made by smalltime local crafters would be great, or if there's anything like Vancouver's Regional Assembly of Text that would be especially awesome. Anyway, definitely quirky. So... Parkdale?

Originally Posted by niwell

Not sure if you are into food and drink so won't make any lists there

Thanks for asking. We tend to look for comfortable & cheap local cafes wherever we happen to be. We like to get the local flavor but aren't likely to go very far out of our way. If there's one or two things that we shouldn't miss, I'm all ears, but don't focus on this. Of course we know about and have had poutine on a previous Montreal trip.

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

there are 3 generations of streetcars on Toronto's streets.

Do the new big streetcars run on all the lines, or only some of them? Also thanks for reminding me about the UP Express! It wasn't on the subway map so I'd forgotten about it, but we'll definitely use it on our way out of town (we arrive via Via).

[Laceoflight]

Hey, bienvenue ! And glad you'll be visiting :-)

I think you'd probably want to check out some of these places.

• Underground city (RESO) : the stretch between Tour de la Bourse and Palais des Congrès, including the Centre de Commerce Mondial. It's one of the most recent stretches, there's always art somewhere, and the architecture is amongst the coolest you will find downtown MTL.
  
• the Jacques-Parizeau building of La Caisse de Dépôt et de Placement du Québec (CPDQ), and the Jean-Paul-Riopelle public place just next to it, are also nice spots to look at or visit.
  
• Old Montréal, especially around McGill St. and Place d'Youville. It's grand. And you get to see the (almost) hidden remains of Montreal's oldest hospital.
  
• I don't know if you ever wandered around Gilford and de Grand-Pré streets, on the Plateau ? I always enjoy walking this old rural road that cuts Montreal's grid at weird angles. And the architecture of the rowhouses there too. And if you simply continue slightly north, you arrive at what remains of Village of Coteau-Saint-Louis. Old rural houses intertwined with walk-ups and plexes (around De Lauzon, Garneau, Rivard, Berri, Boucher streets...)
  
• Saint-Henri (a neighbourhood) in general, for the Bonheur d'occasion working-class houses scattered around, the general feel, but especially for Saint-Henri park (between Agnès, Laporte and St-Antoine streets) and Lachine canal. Atwater market is a must-see if you haven't.
  
• Town of Mount-Royal (TMR) has an interesting core centered around a train station and a central park (Connaught park). The town as a whole was planned as a garden city, designed by Frederick Todd, a student of Olmsted and the first canadian landscape architect. It's a great garden city and transit oriented development example from the early 20th century, especially around the core.
  
• Since you already visited the Mont-Royal park, then I suggest you, if you want to climb our modest hill, to maybe visit the Mont-Royal necropolis, which is composed of two major cemeteries : Notre-Dame-des-Neiges and Mount Royal (I know, everything on this darn island is named Mount Royal something). The northern part of Notre-Dame-des-Neiges cemetery is particularly impressive as it is mostly composed of old and rich burial vaults : peaceful, powerful, intriguing... An example :
  
  pic by me.
  
• As for transit infrastructure, I guess you already rode the métro multiple times. If you're into station design, then I guess LaSalle, Angrignon, Namur, Préfontaine, Radisson and Acadie stations may be worth a closer look.
  
• Champlain bridge and Turcot interchange working sites may also be worth a small detour.
  
• Some small hidden streets : Sainte-Rose, Lartigue, Roulier, Joly, etc.
  
• In the suburban town of Saint-Constant, on the south Shore, there is a museum called "Exporail". This place displays tram cars from different eras in Montreal, Subway cars, and is mostly dedicated to the canadian rail history (the first railroad in Canada was built in 1836 between the nearby town of La Prairie and Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu). You can always go the the old train station in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu (Frontenac St.) if you want to learn more about this railroad and Canada's first locomotive : the Kitten.
  

I could go on and on... Maybe I'll come back. I'll wait for some of your feedback to adjust my suggestions. Anyways : Have fun!

[OutOfTowner]

Hey Cirrus, a big re-welcome back to Canada!

If you're interested in transit stuff, you cannot miss Exporail. Not on the island of MTL but on the South Shore, about a half-hour from downtown in St. Constant. Oooh the wonders! Locomotives, rail cars, trams.. about 100-150 of them. You won't be disappointed and you will need a full day. Weirdly, I doubt that many people on SSP - even the transit geeks - have ever heard of the place let alone visited. Regardless, this should be your main destination during your Montreal segment. If you don't love it, send me your receipt and I will refund your money!
http://www.exporail.org/en/welcome-to-exporail/

Otherwise, there are the usual many things going on in MTL, even in March. If you're here before 11 March, there's Montreal en Lumiere 23 Feb to 11 Mar. Food, music, art.. a little for everyone. Just go down to Place des Festivals, there's a slide (cool), ferris wheel (great views), zip line (couldn't tell you) food, drinks, music etc. It culminates in Nuit Blanche on the 11th.
http://www.montrealenlumiere.com/en Lotsa fun.

If not, I am loathe to recommend this but, if you're at all mesmerized by the fabled 'underground city - and you shouldn't be - this does make it a little more interesting than the series of metro access points and malls that it is. And there are some bits of the RESO, as it known, that are interesting design wise.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yFteqEPQwDg

You might want to take the metro out to Olympic Stadium, a beautiful yet tragic structure, it is surrounded by the Planetarium, Biodome, Insectarium, and Botanical Gardens. There is this fabulous event - Butterflies Go Free - on at the Gardens which is surprisingly quite compelling. 1000's of butterflies flitting about, landing upon you, saying 'hey' (in butterfly, of course). I'm not much of a nature guy but this is awesome.
http://espacepourlavie.ca/en?m=0

Don't know how much of the Plateau you've explored but it is a many faceted beast. An adjacent hood that I love is Outremont. Bernard is a sublime street and Laurier too. As is Parc, the border between the Plateau and Outremont.

Finally, if you're here on 17 March you MUST attend the St.Patrick's day parade! Oh, I know what you're thinking "parade, whatever, boring" but no: this is possibly the funnest, most genuine, mass get together of Montrealers ever. Guaranteed blast!

If you want to go to any museums or attractions, might I suggest a Museum Pass. You get 3 days unlimited transit and free access to 41 museums. 80$ and it pays for itself, even if you only go out to Olympic Stadium. But you should also check out at least one of the 3 history of Montreal museums.
http://museesmontreal.org/en/passes/the-passes

I'm sure there's stuff that I've missed but I hope that I have been of some help.

Feel free to PM me when you arrive if you require advice and it would be a great pleasure for me and my gf to show you around - work and all that crap permitting.

Think EXPORAIL!

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

What's special about that stretch? I am definitely interested in checking out the streetcars, but the Spadina line seems most interesting to me because of its transitway. Or are you saying Queen because of the neighbourhoods?

It's arguably the longest streetcar line in the world and passes through a huge variety of neighbourhoods in Toronto. It can be slowwwww but not to be missed I think. The Spadina transitway is interesting for sure but you can see it by walking through the area. For a newer transitway the St. Clair streetcar may be more interesting actually.

Originally Posted by Cirrus

The shopping is mainly for my wife, but she's into independent craft and stationery. I guess I'd categorize it as hipster or quirky, definitely not high end or trendy. Places with, like, home decor made by smalltime local crafters would be great, or if there's anything like Vancouver's Regional Assembly of Text that would be especially awesome. Anyway, definitely quirky. So... Parkdale?

For that kind of stuff West Queen West is probably the best. From about Bathurst all the way into Parkdale there are a bunch of interesting stores. Also do the walk on Ossignton between Queen and Dundas. I can't think of any "can't miss" examples off the top of my head but will try to. It's a bit more commercial but Drake General Store across from the Drake hotel on Queen (near Dovercourt) has some cool stuff with a Toronto flavour.

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Do the new big streetcars run on all the lines, or only some of them? Also thanks for reminding me about the UP Express! It wasn't on the subway map so I'd forgotten about it, but we'll definitely use it on our way out of town (we arrive via Via).

Right now just on Spadina, the lakeshore and the 514 line between Dufferin and Cherry st. UP isn't on the map but you should definitely use it! I took it to the airport the other day from work downtown and will use it to go to Bloor W station and the streetcar back home to Parkdale this Friday.

As for small cafes and such you will find them all over the west end on Queen, Dundas, College, Ossington and so forth. If you want a somewhat Toronto dish it could be worth getting cheap roti (caribbean curry wrapped in bread) in Parkdale. Lots of options and very affordable. I like Ali's roti and Island foods.

[Rico Rommheim]

The montreal metro is a must-see for any transport enthusiast. The stations are like temples to transit.

[caltrane74]

The new streetcars are on Queens Quay-Spadina(510) , Harbourfront (509) and King-Cherry (514).

There are currently, 30 new streetcars in Toronto, by the time you come here there will be another 12-14 new streetcars. Likely they will be on King Street (504) or Bathurst (511).

Even at that point, we will still be expecting another 200 of the new streetcars.

Because your only here for a limited time, streetcars are a really efficient way to get through all the downtown neighborhoods in short order.

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by Laceoflight

Hey, bienvenue ! And glad you'll be visiting :-)

I think you'd probably want to check out some of these places.

• Underground city (RESO) : the stretch between Tour de la Bourse and Palais des Congrès, including the Centre de Commerce Mondial. It's one of the most recent stretches, there's always art somewhere, and the architecture is amongst the coolest you will find downtown MTL.
  
• the Jacques-Parizeau building of La Caisse de Dépôt et de Placement du Québec (CPDQ), and the Jean-Paul-Riopelle public place just next to it, are also nice spots to look at or visit.
  
• Old Montréal, especially around McGill St. and Place d'Youville. It's grand. And you get to see the (almost) hidden remains of Montreal's oldest hospital.
  
• I don't know if you ever wandered around Gilford and de Grand-Pré streets, on the Plateau ? I always enjoy walking this old rural road that cuts Montreal's grid at weird angles. And the architecture of the rowhouses there too. And if you simply continue slightly north, you arrive at what remains of Village of Coteau-Saint-Louis. Old rural houses intertwined with walk-ups and plexes (around De Lauzon, Garneau, Rivard, Berri, Boucher streets...)
  
• Saint-Henri (a neighbourhood) in general, for the Bonheur d'occasion working-class houses scattered around, the general feel, but especially for Saint-Henri park (between Agnès, Laporte and St-Antoine streets) and Lachine canal. Atwater market is a must-see if you haven't.
  
• Town of Mount-Royal (TMR) has an interesting core centered around a train station and a central park (Connaught park). The town as a whole was planned as a garden city, designed by Frederick Todd, a student of Olmsted and the first canadian landscape architect. It's a great garden city and transit oriented development example from the early 20th century, especially around the core.
  
• Since you already visited the Mont-Royal park, then I suggest you, if you want to climb our modest hill, to maybe visit the Mont-Royal necropolis, which is composed of two major cemeteries : Notre-Dame-des-Neiges and Mount Royal (I know, everything on this darn island is named Mount Royal something). The northern part of Notre-Dame-des-Neiges cemetery is particularly impressive as it is mostly composed of old and rich burial vaults : peaceful, powerful, intriguing... An example :
  
  pic by me.
  
• As for transit infrastructure, I guess you already rode the métro multiple times. If you're into station design, then I guess LaSalle, Angrignon, Namur, Préfontaine, Radisson and Acadie stations may be worth a closer look.
  
• Champlain bridge and Turcot interchange working sites may also be worth a small detour.
  
• Some small hidden streets : Sainte-Rose, Lartigue, Roulier, Joly, etc.
  
• In the suburban town of Saint-Constant, on the south Shore, there is a museum called "Exporail". This place displays tram cars from different eras in Montreal, Subway cars, and is mostly dedicated to the canadian rail history (the first railroad in Canada was built in 1836 between the nearby town of La Prairie and Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu). You can always go the the old train station in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu (Frontenac St.) if you want to learn more about this railroad and Canada's first locomotive : the Kitten.
  

I could go on and on... Maybe I'll come back. I'll wait for some of your feedback to adjust my suggestions. Anyways : Have fun!

Ha ha! Great minds and all.. I think he's going to have fun!

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

The montreal metro is a must-see for any transport enthusiast. The stations are like temples to transit.

One of the first things that impressed me about Montreal. While my mates were busy getting wasted and going to strip clubs, I was running around on the metro thinking "Wow!". Still appreciate it to this day

[kwoldtimer]

[QUOTE=Cirrus;7662786]Thanks very much! I really appreciate these responses. Don't stop! Some questions:

1. Is the area between Union Station & Yonge/Dundas worth spending time in, or is it just an office ghetto?

2. What's the best way to get to Markham on transit? I'm interested in the Viva "rapidway" on Highway 7. But I'll only go see it if it's easy to get to and doesn't take too long. GO to Unionville? Viva Blue line from Finch to Richmond? Something else?

......QUOTE]

1. Not AN office ghetto, THE office ghetto, in Canadian terms ( ). You could check to see if there's anything interesting on at the Design Exchange (former Toronto Stock Exchange) and then move along to old City Hall and the recently refurbished Nathan Philips Square. Before going on to Dundas Square, I'd go a block west of the Square to take a peak at Osgoode Hall (not sure whether it's still open to the public). It would be a pleasant walk, imho, if the weather's decent. More ambitious would be to walk Union Station to Dundas Square above ground and then walk back via the PATH (warning - do NOT do that at rush hour!).

2. If you must go to Unionville and/or Markham, I'd take the GO train. If I had to choose one, I'd do Unionville, which is twee but not unpleasant.

[WhipperSnapper]

Why would you waste time on Unionville?


Take a good comfortable pair of shoes and explore. Think you'll be better off even if you miss an attraction or two.