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  #14041  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 9:20 PM
mcdj mcdj is offline
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Originally Posted by gandalf612 View Post
Sorry, but there should be no expectation of having a quiet suburban enclave in the downtown of the third largest city in the US.
Which is why I specifically didn’t move into downtown. I moved to Near South Side.

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Originally Posted by woodrow View Post
Welcome to the forum! Of course, you just want to NIMBY away and ignore the difference of opinions of some of the forumers, but YAY FOR YOU!
Sorry, what part of me asking the person I replied to, and the people who are jumping up and down for joy at renderings, what benefits they see in this project, is ignoring differences of opinions? I’m literally asking for viewpoints on how people see this as good. Or is the thinking here that any and all development is inherently good as soon as theyre announced, no questions asked?

I love how Chicago builds stuff, lets it sit half finished for years, trickles in a few crappy street level tenants (can we please have some more dental centers and foot clinics?) while leaving the entire surrounding area littered with old/empty buildings and weed covered lots, then just moves on to the next project. And the people are like woo hoo!

My neighborhood has been “up and coming” for 20 years.

Last edited by mcdj; Mar 14, 2019 at 11:20 PM.
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  #14042  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 9:36 PM
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  #14043  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 9:37 PM
mcdj mcdj is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
You give no valid reason for opposing a zoning change that permits this project other than "I don't want to live next to a construction site"
Ok, I also don’t want to be flanked by two major pedestrian corridors that access a transit hub, and watch the neighborhood go from neighborhood to footraffic superhighway, with all the trash, noise and crime that brings.

I also want to know what the project means for real estate values for the current residents.

I also want to know what environmental impact the project will have on Northerly Island and Burnham Harbor. And the air I breathe.

I also want see how the construction trucks get to the site, despite the ban on trucks on the LSD and the promise from the developer that trucks would not be coming from the west.

I also want to know how the CFD, CPD, and the schools will scale up for the onslaught of thousands of new tenants crammed into a sliver of dirt.

I also want to know why we need ANOTHER “mixed use” project, when we have Soldier Fileld, Wintrust, the outdoor concert venue at Northerly Island, and McCormick place in the same spot. They’re even using the Soldier Fileld parking lot most of this summer for Cirque Du Soleil.

They’re describing the mixed uses spaces as a destination place. But it’s just gonna be another 5 Lettuce Entertain You/Boka restaurants, a Whole Fools, and a movie theater/concert space, because there are none of any of that anywhere else.
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  #14044  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 9:43 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is online now
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Originally Posted by mcdj View Post
Which is why I specifically didn’t move into downtown. I moved to Near South Side.

I'm literally asking for viewpoints on how people see this as good.
If it's a comfortable walk to the 2nd busiest rail station in the country and the third largest office building in the country, I'm pretty sure everyone would consider this to be "downtown". Berwyn is not "downtown." The near south side is not "the Loop", but it's downtown.

As for what the benefits are: it would be nice to have those ugly tracks covered. It would be nice to walk across those tracks more easily. It would be nice to have more neighbors who can keep eyes on the streets and patronize local businesses and activate the street. It would fun to have the south end of the park framed in by high rises for the exact same reason I enjoy the north end of Grant park being framed by high rises. It would be nice to create more apartment supply so that our cost of living doesn't increase due to supply constraints that would make Chicago less affordable. It would be nice to have more people living within walking distance of the Loop, making the Loop a more appealing place to recruit employees and thus making the whole region more prosperous. It would be nice have a tax base increased by thousands of units so we can all share more high quality services. It would be nice to have increased density close to where our infrastructure is most concentrated so that it can be utilized more efficiently, increasing regional prosperity.
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  #14045  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 9:45 PM
VKChaz VKChaz is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
^ Those ornamented archways are a pleasant surprise!

Was this a rehab or a new construction? If the latter, then that's a nice little touch
I believe those are replicas from the demolished building. In fact, those might be the actual pieces that were saved. Still would rather have the original building (Holabird & Root, I believe), but it isn't bad. I hope the additional trim is still planned.
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  #14046  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 10:15 PM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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Originally Posted by mcdj View Post
Ok, I also don’t want to be flanked by two major pedestrian corridors that access a transit hub, and watch the neighborhood go from neighborhood to footraffic superhighway, with all the trash, noise and crime that brings.

I also want to know what the project means for real estate values for the current residents.

I also want to know what environmental impact the project will have on Northerly Island and Burnham Harbor. And the air I breathe.

I also want see how the construction trucks get to the site, despite the ban on trucks on the LSD and the promise from the developer that trucks would not be coming from the west.

I also want to know how the CFD, CPD, and the schools will scale up for the onslaught of thousands of new tenants crammed into a sliver of dirt.

I also want to know why we need ANOTHER “mixed use” project, when we have Soldier Fileld, Wintrust, the outdoor concert venue at Northerly Island, and McCormick place in the same spot. They’re even using the Soldier Fileld parking lot most of this summer for Cirque Du Soleil.

They’re describing the mixed uses spaces as a destination place. But it’s just gonna be another 5 Lettuce Entertain You/Boka restaurants, a Whole Fools, and a movie theater/concert space, because there are none of any of that anywhere else.
Wow. You've got to give it up. Dude, you are on a SKYSCRAPER forum full of enthusiasts that want nothing better than to see this city grow and become ever more denser. So, you're wasting your typing. ('Sliver of dirt'? HA! it is 35 acres!)

And for all of my FELLOW FORUMERS who believe that this will never happen...

IT WILL HAPPEN.

It's just a matter of how long it will take.

There might be a lot of land to build on in Chicago, but there is NO LAND TO BUILD ON this close to the CBD AND on the lakefront.

This land represents a VERY finite resource, and for that reason, it is extremely valuable and its development is inevitable...
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  #14047  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 10:29 PM
mcdj mcdj is offline
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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
Wow. You've got to give it up. Dude, you are on a SKYSCRAPER forum full of enthusiasts that want nothing better than to see this city grow and become ever more denser. So, you're wasting your typing. ('Sliver of dirt'? HA! it is 35 acres!)

And for all of my FELLOW FORUMERS who believe that this will never happen...

IT WILL HAPPEN.

It's just a matter of how long it will take.

There might be a lot of land to build on in Chicago, but there is NO LAND TO BUILD ON this close to the CBD AND on the lakefront.

This land represents a VERY finite resource, and for that reason, it is extremely valuable and its development is inevitable...
Ok I’ll be moving along.

Every time I navigate a page here my iPad gets hijacked by CONGRATULATIONS APPLE USER! ads anyhow.

FYI, a city can be a city without being wall to wall density. And be careful what you wish for. NYC has the density you seem to covet and living there is mayhem.
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  #14048  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 10:44 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is online now
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Originally Posted by mcdj View Post
NYC has the density you seem to covet and living there is mayhem.
I feel that most of Manhattan, at about 70,000 people per square mile, is overdense. But I really like Paris, Brooklyn and London at half that density, which is about twice Chicago's density. If Chicago quadruples our population to about 11 million people, please stop in again for a follow up discussion so we can re-asses.

Fun fact! Cicero, IL is the 7th density city over 75,000 people in the U.S.
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  #14049  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 10:57 PM
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  #14050  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mcdj View Post
Ok, I also don’t want to be flanked by two major pedestrian corridors that access a transit hub, and watch the neighborhood go from neighborhood to footraffic superhighway, with all the trash, noise and crime that brings.
First, except on game/concert days, it's unlikely that even 3000 people will pass to or from that hub each day. It simply doesn't serve any big origins or destinations. But a central city is indeed a place that brings a variety of people together, not all of whom live on your block. For hundreds of years, we've coped with that reality using techniques like garden fences, living spaces a half-floor above grade, or doorman buildings.

Quote:
I also want to know what the project means for real estate values for the current residents.
That they'll go up. Remember that developers only build projects like this for the high end of the market. The more such people we have living in the South Loop, the less we're seen as some iffy urban pioneer area.

Quote:
I also want to know what environmental impact the project will have on Northerly Island and Burnham Harbor. And the air I breathe.
Nothing noticeable, except some more people who'll get to look at them. If autos were to stop getting cleaner, theoretically the couple thousand new trips at buildout could have a nonzero impact on air quality. But it's easy to see that internal-combustion engines will only be a fraction of the vehicles on the road when this is even half done.

Quote:
I also want see how the construction trucks get to the site, despite the ban on trucks on the LSD and the promise from the developer that trucks would not be coming from the west.
CDOT simply issues permits for the construction trucks to use LSD, as they do for any other lakefront construction project.

Quote:
I also want to know how the CFD, CPD, and the schools will scale up for the onslaught of thousands of new tenants crammed into a sliver of dirt.
CFD will send a truck when someone burns the toast, just as they do today in Museum Park. CPD will send a squadrol when one of the residents goes off her meds, just as they do today in Museum Park. Have those trips been so frequent in your experience that they've made the area unliveable? As for schools, highrises don't tend to have many school-age children. Because this development will have thousands of square feet in building bases to fill, it very well may be the spot for the new neighborhood high school we all want.

Quote:
I also want to know why we need ANOTHER “mixed use” project, when we have Soldier Fileld, Wintrust, the outdoor concert venue at Northerly Island, and McCormick place in the same spot. They’re even using the Soldier Fileld parking lot most of this summer for Cirque Du Soleil.
I'm not sure what you mean. No event venue was discussed last night.

Quote:
They’re describing the mixed uses spaces as a destination place. But it’s just gonna be another 5 Lettuce Entertain You/Boka restaurants, a Whole Fools, and a movie theater/concert space, because there are none of any of that anywhere else.
Could be. I'm not optimistic about an indoor mall, and real restaurant rows form on streets like Wabash with small funky spaces. But in this country, we tend to let property owners take the risk that they may not get the tenancy they want, rather than have a Ministry of Retail that decides if new retail space is justified.

Hey, at least you didn't mention your views. There are things I don't like about this site plan, and there are big doubts about it ever happening. But "the neighborhood won't be exactly the same forever" is a pretty weak objection. You knew when you moved in that Central Station owned the air rights, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that building over Weldon Yard would require high density.
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  #14051  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 11:04 PM
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  #14052  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 11:09 PM
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emathias emathias is offline
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Quote:
I also want to know why we need ANOTHER “mixed use” project, when we have Soldier Fileld, Wintrust, the outdoor concert venue at Northerly Island, and McCormick place in the same spot. They’re even using the Soldier Fileld parking lot most of this summer for Cirque Du Soleil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
...
I'm not sure what you mean. No event venue was discussed last night.
...
It appears he's conflating "mixed use" with the idea that it may have "destination" elements. Obviously "mixed use" doesn't have to include destination businesses.

Mcdj: Mixed use just means creating an area that isn't exclusively residential or exclusively retail or exclusively office, etc. If you like cities, you probably want and prefer mixed use even if you haven't associated the term with the kind of neighborhood you want. If you don't like cities then, well, you'd have been an idiot for living where you do. And I doubt you're an idiot.

Edit: I've lived literally surrounded by construction for most of the past five years (check out what's been constructed near the block of Huron between LaSalle and Wells in the recent past to get an idea). I love how it's changed the area for the better.
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Last edited by emathias; Mar 15, 2019 at 12:11 AM.
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  #14053  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 11:18 PM
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  #14054  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mcdj View Post
Ok, I also don’t want to be flanked by two major pedestrian corridors that access a transit hub, and watch the neighborhood go from neighborhood to footraffic superhighway, with all the trash, noise and crime that brings.
Holy freaking dog-whistle, Batman. So not only are you a complete NIMBY, you're basically a classist/racist as well! Fantastic!

Aaron (Glowrock)
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  #14055  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2019, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum View Post
I feel that most of Manhattan, at about 70,000 people per square mile, is overdense. But I really like Paris, Brooklyn and London at half that density, which is about twice Chicago's density. If Chicago quadruples our population to about 11 million people, please stop in again for a follow up discussion so we can re-asses.

Fun fact! Cicero, IL is the 7th density city over 75,000 people in the U.S.
Fun fact! Cicero has a land area of just under 6 square miles and a population of about 83,000 people. In other words, you need to find a better source for your "facts." (In case you can't do math, that's a density of about 14,000 people per square mile)

Along those lines, the actual City of Paris, the 41 square miles that most visitors see, is about 52,000 people per square mile, with the arrondissements most visited ranging from about 60,000 to 85,000 per square mile (the monument districts are obviously much less dense, so I've not included those). Source

London is famously difficult to assess population density for, because of the various ways you can set boundaries for it, but the parts most visitors are familiar with are generally thought to have a population density of about half that of Paris.

It's true that Manhattan's overall density averages out to about 73,000 people per square mile. But, Manhattan easily feels far more dense than that for several reasons. First, there are 75,000 hotel rooms in Manhattan. Hotel visitors are far more likely to be participating in public life, disproportionately adding to the perception of density. Second, Manhattan has two of the three largest Central Business Districts in North America (Downtown and Midtown) which dramatically increases the daytime population of the island, especially south of Central Park. On a weekday, the daytime population of Manhattan more than doubles, from 1.6 million to about 4 million. So the daytime density of the island is closer to 175,000 people per square mile. Finally, places like the Upper West Side and the Upper East Side are significantly above average in density, at 110,000 and 130,000 people per square mile, respectively.

Finally, the City of Chicago's overall density is actually below 12,000 people per square mile, which is about 1/3rd of Brooklyn's density of about 35,000 people per square mile. Areas like Logan Square, Bucktown, Logan Square, Avondale, Ukrainian Village, and even Lincoln Park, are around 20,000 people per square mile. Lakeview, Rogers Park, and Edgewater are in the 30-35,000 people per square mile density range, and the Near North Side is a bit over 50,000 ppsqm. Hyde Park, Kenwood, Bridgeport, Pilsen, Lincoln Square and similar places average between 15-19,000 ppsqm.

Certainly the most dense parts of Lakeview and Lincoln Park and other popular neighborhoods are higher - within 1/2 mile of the lakefront north of Division Street probably averages over 40,000 ppsqm all the way to Evanston.

So, basically, once you have a stronger grasp of the complexities of population density in various cities, and what you actually like, "please stop in again for a follow up discussion so we can re-assess."
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  #14056  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 12:01 AM
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To our new forumer...

Did you not ever think that, just maybe, moving into a fairly new development (Central Station went up in the ‘90s) close to downtown and adjacent to an undeveloped sunken rail right of way might mean that maybe, at some point, there would be a lot of construction nearby?

If you buy a condo and there’s a parking lot across the street, your base case assumption should be that someday a building will go up there.
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  #14057  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 12:11 AM
mcdj mcdj is offline
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Originally Posted by glowrock View Post
Holy freaking dog-whistle, Batman. So not only are you a complete NIMBY, you're basically a classist/racist as well! Fantastic!

Aaron (Glowrock)
What on earth are you on about? I’m racist because the CTA has crime?

I’m racist because I read the Tribune?

From the 2012 piece linked below...

“That Roosevelt stop, which serves the Green and Orange lines on the elevated tracks and the Red Line below, was the No. 1 station for rail crime between 2009 and June 13 of this year, according to the analysis.”

That station is the closest hub to my home. A 10 minute walk. So don’t try to tell me that some of the crime there won’t shift a bit east, especially if the people using the new hub are upscale condo owners.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...625-story.html

I find it hilarious that you’re calling me racist just for mentioning the word crime. That says infinitely more about who YOU perceive criminals to be than me.

Last edited by mcdj; Mar 15, 2019 at 12:21 AM.
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  #14058  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 12:27 AM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is online now
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
Fun fact! Cicero has a land area of just under 6 square miles and a population of about 83,000 people. In other words, you need to find a better source for your "facts." (In case you can't do math, that's a density of about 14,000 people per square mile)
If you're going to correct someone, you should do it in a way that doesn't make you cringe later when you realize your correction was wrong.

The seven densest cities in the U.S. with populations over 75,000 are:
NYC: 27K/square mile
Somerville, MA 18K
Paterson, NJ 18K
San Francisco 17K
Cambridge 16K
Jersey City 16K
Cicero 14K
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  #14059  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 1:06 AM
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  #14060  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 2:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mcdj View Post
What on earth are you on about? I’m racist because the CTA has crime?

was the No. 1 station for rail crime
Sooo... that just means that station had more crime than other stations. The article doesn't cite specific figures, so it's not possible to deduce that there is a lot of crime associated with it.

It's classist to assume that public transit=poor people=criminals, and I think glowrock is accusing you of making such an assumption.
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