Should southern ontario be regarded as Canada's south?

[flar]

Originally Posted by Stryker

If I wanted to describe canada to someone this is very clearly the map I'd uses. And I think you'd be hard pressed to explain why "southern" ontario isn't considered southern canada.

East-west will always be the dominant paradigm, especially since the vast majority of our population is huddled against the southern border. Because of that, there is no "down south" for most Canadians, only "up north" and east or west.

[Architype]

There are many factors in determining what is Southern Canada; agriculture is one of them, as well as being the areas which are largely urban dominated. When you run out of large urban dominated regions you are in Northern Canada. Southern Ontario is too small and specific to be singularly defined as Southern Canada.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by north 42

The forests of Southwestern Ontario are also very different from the rest of Canada, being broad leaf forests.

I think it's funny how representative of canada this is.

White is teh arctic,
light green is the barrens
Green the north
Per central
Orange the maritimes
Browth the south
Yellow the prairies
BC being the west coast

[Architype]

^That puts St. John's and all of NL in Northern Canada.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Architype

^That puts St. John's and all of NL in Northern Canada.

Seems about right to me. Remember historical it's some of the worst farm land in the country.

[Architype]

There are mountains surrounding Vancouver which are also pretty terrible for farming. That's not the only measure.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Architype

There are mountains surrounding Vancouver which are also pretty terrible for farming. That's not the only measure.

What isn't the only measure?

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Stryker

I think it's funny how representative of canada this is.

White is teh arctic,
light green is the barrens
Green the north
Per central
Orange the maritimes
Browth the south
Yellow the prairies
BC being the west coast

I'm used to being considered north in some phrases (Northeast Avalon, North Atlantic, etc.) but I wouldn't consider us Northern Canada. We're definitely not what comes to mind hearing that phrase.

The colouring on that map above is very poorly done for the island. The southern Avalon is all barrens, for example. Here's a more accurate map from the Province:




Also, it's a different type of barrens from far up north. Our issue is soil quality, not temperature/permafrost. The plants in the barrens here aren't the same as you'll find up north:



The map for coldest possible temperatures is similar:



I think you really have to get north of Gros Mourne here before it really feels northern. Or about an hour south of St. John's.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Stryker

What isn't the only measure?

Agriculture, (and forest types), aren't the only measures. It's also cultural. I don't consider St. John's to be part of the north, mainly because it's functioned as a part of the historically colonized world. I consider Labrador to be part of the North because it's been mainly resource based with a sparse local subsistence economy.

[Beedok]

Yes?

Though more in common with the South of England than the South of the US.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by north 42

I agree, yes, London is more white collar and Windsor is more blue collar, but London actually has a lot of factory jobs, and Windsor actually has a decent amount of white collar jobs. The two cities are actually more alike than either would want to admit, although Windsor is much more multicultural and London is much more waspy.

If we're getting into sub-subregions, I think Windsor-Essex could be lopped off from the rest of Southwestern Ontario. Because it grew up in lockstep with Detroit, Detroit's culture and ethnic makeup (e.g. large Arab population) have rubbed off on Windsor. It also feels like a part of a larger city, since it is defined more by a loose collection of old, urban neighbourhoods along linear commercial strips rather than by its downtown (which admittedly isn't very impressive). Windsor certainly isn't just another mid-sized Ontario city, while London may almost be the prototypical example of a plain vanilla Ontario town blown up in size.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Architype

Agriculture, (and forest types), aren't the only measures. It's also cultural. I don't consider St. John's to be part of the north, mainly because it's functioned as a part of the historically colonized world. I consider Labrador to be part of the North because it's been mainly resource based with a sparse local subsistence economy.

I never made the claim that its the only measure.

Just that the overlap is so dam strong between cultural barriers and reality.

We spend alot of time trying to distinguish the anecdotes from the facts regarding canadian culture and I think climate/historical economy has a lot to do with it.

[ue]

Originally Posted by flar

East-west will always be the dominant paradigm, especially since the vast majority of our population is huddled against the southern border. Because of that, there is no "down south" for most Canadians, only "up north" and east or west.

Sure. Down south for us in Southern Canada means the US, sometimes points south of there. That doesn't mean that a "down south" doesn't exist as terminology for within Canada, it's just used by a small segment of the little populated North.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If we're getting into sub-subregions, I think Windsor-Essex could be lopped off from the rest of Southwestern Ontario. Because it grew up in lockstep with Detroit, Detroit's culture and ethnic makeup (e.g. large Arab population) have rubbed off on Windsor. It also feels like a part of a larger city, since it is defined more by a loose collection of old, urban neighbourhoods along linear commercial strips rather than by its downtown (which admittedly isn't very impressive). Windsor certainly isn't just another mid-sized Ontario city, while London may almost be the prototypical example of a plain vanilla Ontario town blown up in size.

I think using cities is very misleading, because the apparent cultural behavior is often more defined by the make of the city versus the region it comes from.

I.e. Toronto Feels more like New york than Woodstock.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Yes?

Though more in common with the South of England than the South of the US.

I never remotely made the claim that our south has anything to do with the american south.

The only comparison I made was that south western ontario is more similar to ohio etc than to thunder bay.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I'm used to being considered north in some phrases (Northeast Avalon, North Atlantic, etc.) but I wouldn't consider us Northern Canada. We're definitely not what comes to mind hearing that phrase.

The colouring on that map above is very poorly done for the island. The southern Avalon is all barrens, for example. Here's a more accurate map from the Province:

I was comparing us to regions like thunderbay,, timmis ontario, thompson manitoba etc.

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Also, it's a different type of barrens from far up north. Our issue is soil quality, not temperature/permafrost. The plants in the barrens here aren't the same as you'll find up north:


The map for coldest possible temperatures is similar:

You can't go by directly coldest temperatures as very clearly western canada beats us by a long shot and has crop lands much further north.

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I think you really have to get north of Gros Mourne here before it really feels northern. Or about an hour south of St. John's.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by someone123

This might not be news to anyone but the projections commonly used for Canadian maps tend to exaggerate the degree to which parts of Ontario are lower in latitude than other parts of the country.


http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/92-195-...te/m-c-eng.htm

Most Canadians travelling to Windsor would go east or west more than they'd head south.

One of my pet peeves, despite laughing at myself because of that fact. They really should centre the map at the halfway point between St. John's and Victoria, rather than using the western edge of the Yukon, because that tips the west down and the east up too much.

Like this is the angle most people think Newfoundland is at, but the red arrow I added points to our southernmost point.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Stryker

I think using cities is very misleading, because the apparent cultural behavior is often more defined by the make of the city versus the region it comes from.

I.e. Toronto Feels more like New york than Woodstock.

It's sexy to say that big cities across the globe have more in common with each other than their hinterlands, but that's also only true on a surface level.

Sure, Torontonians ride the subway and rent apartments like New Yorkers. But that's because they are residents of a dense, congested city of millions, which forces their behaviour in certain predictable ways. It's not because New Yorkers and Torontonians have any profound cultural connection with one another.

On the other hand, cities do have connections to their regions and their countries. As much as New Yorkers hate to admit it, New York is an American city which would not exist in its present form if it wasn't in America. Same with Toronto.

This applies to everything from ethnic makeup to restaurant etiquette, to social interactions to architecture.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

It's sexy to say that big cities across the globe have more in common with each other than their hinterlands, but that's also only true on a surface level.

Sure, Torontonians ride the subway and rent apartments like New Yorkers. But that's because they are residents of a dense, congested city of millions, which forces their behaviour in certain predictable ways. It's not because New Yorkers and Torontonians have any profound cultural connection with one another.

Whether or not it's the surface level it does confuse talk of culture.

[FFX-ME]

In the 70s, when there was some interest in developing the north, the concept of middle Canada was invented. Basically the boreal forest. everything south of that is Canada south and everything north is Canada north. In that framework Thunder Bay is the largest city not in Canada south. See below (sorry I don't know how to make smaller)