Should southern ontario be regarded as Canada's south?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Whether or not it's the surface level it does confuse talk of culture.

No it doesn't. A born-and-bred downtown Torontonian would have less of a culture shock if they moved to Paris, Ontario than they would if they moved to Paris, France.

There are surface rituals of living in any big city, but that's a tiny fraction of the social customs that people who live within a nation state are accustomed to but foreigners are not.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

There are surface rituals of living in any big city, but that's a tiny fraction of the social customs that people who live within a nation state are accustomed to but foreigners are not.

On top of this, only a small fraction of people in the GTA live or work in downtown Toronto and even the central parts of Toronto aren't all that different from other Canadian cities. Canada isn't a country with one big city and a poor rural hinterland. It's a relatively evenly-developed and decentralized country. Families in suburban Edmonton for the most part have a pretty similar lifestyle to those in the 905. The downtown condo lifestyle in Vancouver is very similar to that of Toronto (living space is actually more expensive in Vancouver).

(This is usually the point where I get in trouble for anti-Toronto hate speech. I'm not saying that it isn't bigger or busier than other Canadian cities. It's just not very qualitatively different from other Canadian cities in the scheme of things. I wouldn't even say it's the city that stands out as the most different.)

I think this is somewhat related to the thread topic as well. Some people (mostly Ontarians) argue that all things Canadian revolve around Southern Ontario and that the rest of Canada is a hinterland. This is only true to a limited degree outside of Ontario. The other regions of Canada have their own stuff going on. Partly this is out of necessity since Southern Ontario is far away from every province except Quebec, which operates in a different language. Canada's provinces are also relatively strong and important; this is again related to the long distances. Other countries like the US and Australia are similar.

[Dougler306]

Oh of course, ontario wants to be known as the south...they just want to be known as everything in canada..not surprising.

They real south of canada is southern manitoba, southern Sask and southern Alberta. The divide in this country is only growing

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Dougler306

Oh of course, ontario wants to be known as the south...they just want to be known as everything in canada..not surprising.

They real south of canada is southern manitoba, southern Sask and southern Alberta. The divide in this country is only growing

Lol.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

On top of this, only a small fraction of people in the GTA live or work in downtown Toronto and even the central parts of Toronto aren't all that different from other Canadian cities. Canada isn't a country with one big city and a poor rural hinterland. It's a relatively evenly-developed and decentralized country. Families in suburban Edmonton for the most part have a pretty similar lifestyle to those in the 905. The downtown condo lifestyle in Vancouver is very similar to that of Toronto (living space is actually more expensive in Vancouver).

(This is usually the point where I get in trouble for anti-Toronto hate speech. I'm not saying that it isn't bigger or busier than other Canadian cities. It's just not very qualitatively different from other Canadian cities in the scheme of things. I wouldn't even say it's the city that stands out as the most different.)

I think this is somewhat related to the thread topic as well. Some people (mostly Ontarians) argue that all things Canadian revolve around Southern Ontario and that the rest of Canada is a hinterland. This is only true to a limited degree outside of Ontario. The other regions of Canada have their own stuff going on. Partly this is out of necessity since Southern Ontario is far away from every province except Quebec, which operates in a different language. Canada's provinces are also relatively strong and important; this is again related to the long distances. Other countries like the US and Australia are similar.

I am totally on board with this and with what Hipster Duck said. You often hear Tokyo thrown into the mix which is totally hilarious. Obviously there are commonalities between places where the human geography layout is similar.

But seriously, people in a metropolis and its hinterland will generally have way more in common. Think of migration patterns, government, governance and elections, media, popular culture, family ties, the school system you went through, retail chains, the corporate world, the legal system. For all of this people who are from a city like Toronto will have much in common with a place like Manitouwadge. Whether they like it or not.

[ssiguy]

It is very true in Canada that anything that occurs more than a 2 hour drive from Toronto is seen as a regional issue and is treated as such by the media and politicians. Conversely anything happens in Toronto and it's an automatic national problem even if it's only relevant to Toronto.

One only has to look at the current CMHC rule changes to stem the over-heated housing market. It's been raging in Vancouver for years but only now that it's effecting Toronto does it get action from Ottawa or coverage from the media. Montreal is more localized for French Canada but still has a lot of political sway.

Despite all the "inclusive" talk and "the West wants in" or this non-sensical idea that the power is shifting west, the reality is that Canada is run by the Golden Triangle and to many politicians, any area outside the Triangle and/or Corridor is the hinterlands. No one would of course say that but for many politicians, media, cultural manderins, and policy wonks it's exactly how they feel.

[jmt18325]

The housing crisis is not isolated to Toronto and Vancouver.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Stryker

If I wanted to describe canada to someone this is very clearly the map I'd uses. And I think you'd be hard pressed to explain why "southern" ontario isn't considered southern canada.

Do you consider the evergreen forests of California (redwoods) "the north"?
Also southern Ontario is colder than BC in the winter so climate wise that makes it feel more northern to us than BC.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Do you consider the evergreen forests of California (redwoods) "the north"?
Also southern Ontario is colder than BC in the winter so climate wise that makes it feel more northern to us than BC.

When the sweet fuck did I say that it's direct corelation.

Don't be a moron.

It's a reflection of a larger trend.

[Denscity]

Your map stated that evergreen forests must mean "north'. Showing that S.O. had only deciduous forests and therefore more "southern". I remember someone else tried to make this argument so I thought you were also.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Also southern Ontario is colder than BC in the winter so climate wise that makes it feel more northern to us than BC.

I have personally witnessed snow in both Georgia and Texas, which are obviously not "more northern" than places on the West Coast where it never ever snows. So that's a metric that doesn't make any sense.

And Southern Ontario is where the average humidex highs are the highest in the entire country... so even by that not-that-relevant climate yardstick for southernity, it still kinda works.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by lio45

I have personally witnessed snow in both Georgia and Texas, which are obviously not "more northern" than places on the West Coast where it never ever snows. So that's a metric that doesn't make any sense.

And Southern Ontario is where the average humidex highs are the highest in the entire country... so even by that not-that-relevant climate yardstick for southernity, it still kinda works.

Humidexes only work for the east because its dry in the West. I was going by winter highs and lows. And all the snow storms they show on Ontario's The Weather Network.
We're just too far away from Ontario to think about it at all really. Its very "east" to us. Maybe our "south" is Victoria? Haha

[Denscity]

Ok i'll drop the snow thing as it has freakishly snowed in a lot of warm places.

[GreaterMontréal]

there are regions with hot-summer continental humid climats, and regions with cold-summer continental humid climates.

the only regions in Canada with hot-summer continental humid climates are situated in southern Ontario, a very restricted region in western Ontario, and a very restricted region in southern Quebec, known as the Vallée du Richelieu. Dfa

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Humid_con...summer_subtype

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Humidexes only work for the east because its dry in the West.

In fact, it works equally well everywhere -- that's precisely the point.

And don't try to say I'm biased; I'm familiar with both, and I tend to prefer dry heat all things considered (the main downside being the colder nights).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Do you consider the evergreen forests of California (redwoods) "the north"?
Also southern Ontario is colder than BC in the winter so climate wise that makes it feel more northern to us than BC.

In Nova Scotia the hardwood-dominated forests are in the northern, colder part of the province. The extreme southern tip of the province technically has an oceanic climate and there you will find mostly coniferous trees (but different species from the boreal forests).

Deciduous trees are adapted to high seasonal variation, not warmer climates specifically. They do well in places with long summers but winters cold enough to make broad leaves unsuitable. In places like Victoria there are native broadleaf evergreen trees, and in the coastal parts of Nova Scotia there are native broadleaf evergreen shrubs like rhododendrons. There are also coniferous trees that grow in very warm areas.

Originally Posted by lio45

In fact, it works equally well everywhere -- that's precisely the point.

And don't try to say I'm biased; I'm familiar with both, and I tend to prefer dry heat all things considered (the main downside being the colder nights).

But it seems strange to argue that Ontario has a uniquely warm or mild climate in Canada while Osoyoos or Victoria do not (both of those places being warmer on average than anywhere in Ontario; Osoyoos gets hotter days than anywhere in Ontario, 3 degrees hotter than Windsor in summer). And latitude doesn't mean much when it comes to climate; Southern France is at the same latitude as Southern Ontario.

I guess it's true that all of these Canada threads devolve into discussions about climate.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by lio45

In fact, it works equally well everywhere -- that's precisely the point.

And don't try to say I'm biased; I'm familiar with both, and I tend to prefer dry heat all things considered (the main downside being the colder nights).

You don't have to have a warm climate to be humid. The hottest places in North America, hotter than Miami, are in the west and have very little humidity.

Edit: I actually meant "you don't have to be humid to have a warm climate".

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Denscity

You don't have to have a warm climate to be humid. The hottest places in North America, hotter than Miami, are in the west and have very little humidity.

I would also point out that by the time someone invokes humidex values to argue that one place is warmer than another, they've at least conceded that the difference isn't large. People don't bring up the humidex when they talk about how Cairo is hotter than London.

[Metro-One]

Before this erupts into a dry hot vs. humid hot or hot daily highs vs. warm daily lows debate (two SSP classics!) what I see here is another case of trying to create oversimplified classifications.

Humid summers means a warm area, non humid means cold. Okay, that works for a bit until you expand out to the continental level.

Latitude is everything. Okay, generally works until you hit mountainous regions and oceanic areas.

Conifers means north and deciduous means south. Okay, generally works in eastern North America, but falls apart in the west where the Boreal Forrest transitions into the warmer Montane forrests (example Ponderosa Pine forests starting just north of Kamloops and continuing to Mexico) and of course the mild Pacific rainforest.

The thing is, there is no one single feature to define cold from warm, or even north from south in this regard.

It is a mixture of countless factors that honestly will never be sharply defined.

Using climate to define north and south in Canada won't work, since all the mildest locations are on the Pacific Coast, after that is a few select locations in the BC southern Interior (such as Osoyoos which has an average annual mean above 10 and the nation's warmest average high at above 17), after that is the considerably further south Windsor area with a mean between 9 and 10.

[SaskScraper]

I wonder is people in Chile wonder if they live in 'Western' part of country or 'Eastern' part of country or just simply say they live by the coast or in mountainous part of country.. My guess is if they don't live in middle Valparaiso /Santiago part they will more likely say 'North' or 'South' part.

I think the same applies with Canada except laterally east-west.. I've only heard people say 'down south in Canada' meaning Southern Prairies or lower mainland/Vancouver Island etc if in northern part of Western Provinces or Territories. I don't know if people in Eastern half of Canada have same frame of reference.

As pointed out earlier, climate/humidity isn't really a good reference for a definitive divide between North/South in Canada either. For an American frame of reference Death Valley, Mojave or Sonoran deserts are dry where as places in northern New England are more humid. Alaska has warmer Winters than a place like Quebec, but Quebec is at a lower latitude, farther south geographically.

Maybe the average amount of snow fall every year in Canada would be a good measure of what is 'Canada's South' and what is North..
That would put first parts of BC at Canada's South, next with the second least amount of annual snow on average in Canada would be Saskatchewan. Southern Saskatchewan also has Canada's longest length of Province to border along continental United States, which makes sense for people to consider it as 'Canada's South'.