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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 4:02 AM
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Well, in a city like Paris, multi-millionaires don't have a choice of buying Cabbagetown or Parkdale-style homes with modest backyards because there aren't any at all in the départment 75 which makes up the city proper. That's also the case of the entire island of Manhattan I am pretty sure.
I believe there's a handful of (mansionesque) SFHs in the northeastern part of the island. There's also at the very least Alexander Hamilton's house, a 1802 detached SFH that is now a museum.

But you're correct that it's virtually "zero".
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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 10:14 AM
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That's part of the appeal of truly urban cities, but I would say that in terms of amenities even in our best cities not even close to all of even the most urban neighbourhoods offer a full complement of what you "need" within walking distance, from a shoe repair shop to a liquor store. (Though quite a few of them do.)

Just thinking of a city like Ottawa, in dense, vibrant, affluent inner city neighbourhoods like New Edinburgh (Beechwood) or Old Ottawa South, which have strong main streets, there isn't anywhere to buy alcohol within walking distance, for example.

Even Toronto and Montreal have lots of inner neighbourhoods that while they are very good, still have these "amenity gaps". Just think of how many of them aren't even close to being served by rapid transit.

In large cities around you don't generally have as many of these "amenity gaps", and when you book a hotel in a central but non-downtown area you can be reasonably confident to have most of what you need or want.

Think about how many secondary or tertiary urban districts in major Canadian cities have a non-mall *department store*. There are virtually none in the entire country.
This is often easier for smaller cities but the selection, of course, is weaker. We don't have everything (the two that stand out to me, besides the obvious, are no professional ballet, as far as I'm aware, and no downtown library) but what we do have is all within easy walking distance of me.

As far as I can tell, the most important thing is to maintain a wide variety of reasons for all classes of society to live relatively close together and in the core. For example, within a couple blocks of me, is a large community group building serving/employing people with mental ilness, the most prestigious private school in the province, one of the largest public high schools with the best theatre programs, one of the poorest neighbourhoods in the city in one direction, one of the most successfully gentrified in the other, both ringed by one of the most expensive. No matter what I need, whether it's a black barber, or a spa, or a tailor, or dog grooming, or a manicure, or methadone... I can get it all without walking more than a big city block. And all of the amenities of downtown are only a few times farther away.

But, of course, the variety and quality is different than larger cities. We may or may not have an AHL hockey team at the time. And that'd be by far the most prestigious sporting event available.

And the suburbs, of course, are awful compared to even an identical built form in a larger city. You won't find many hidden suburban gems here, unless you head out to touristy suburbs that were previously separate, old coastal villages. Quidi Vidi, for example, has some of the best restaurants and accomodations in the country. Petty Harbour has the best fish'n'chips in the region.

But you go out to the cul-de-sacs, and there is almost no creativity to the amenities. Manna Bakery is the suburban amenity that gets any sort of love that comes to my mind at the moment. Everything else is Kelsey's, Fionn MacCool's, Needs, Pipers, Coleman's, Walmart, Kent, Canadian Tire, Marie's, Mary Brown's, KFC, generic office low-rises, industrial parks, whatever else. They're the types of places that turn everything you do into an errand, not an experience. And you have to go to the core to find anything that feels all that different from a large American truck stop.

I think in a larger city you can have even shitty suburbs without getting quite that bad. Gun to my head, there's no question even I would choose Mississauga or Markham or Laval before Mount Pearl or Conception Bay South, even accounting for the fact it's easier to get to our core from the suburbs.
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 1:05 PM
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This is often easier for smaller cities but the selection, of course, is weaker. We don't have everything (the two that stand out to me, besides the obvious, are no professional ballet, as far as I'm aware, and no downtown library) but what we do have is all within easy walking distance of me.

As far as I can tell, the most important thing is to maintain a wide variety of reasons for all classes of society to live relatively close together and in the core. For example, within a couple blocks of me, is a large community group building serving/employing people with mental ilness, the most prestigious private school in the province, one of the largest public high schools with the best theatre programs, one of the poorest neighbourhoods in the city in one direction, one of the most successfully gentrified in the other, both ringed by one of the most expensive. No matter what I need, whether it's a black barber, or a spa, or a tailor, or dog grooming, or a manicure, or methadone... I can get it all without walking more than a big city block. And all of the amenities of downtown are only a few times farther away.

But, of course, the variety and quality is different than larger cities. We may or may not have an AHL hockey team at the time. And that'd be by far the most prestigious sporting event available.

And the suburbs, of course, are awful compared to even an identical built form in a larger city. You won't find many hidden suburban gems here, unless you head out to touristy suburbs that were previously separate, old coastal villages. Quidi Vidi, for example, has some of the best restaurants and accomodations in the country. Petty Harbour has the best fish'n'chips in the region.

But you go out to the cul-de-sacs, and there is almost no creativity to the amenities. Manna Bakery is the suburban amenity that gets any sort of love that comes to my mind at the moment. Everything else is Kelsey's, Fionn MacCool's, Needs, Pipers, Coleman's, Walmart, Kent, Canadian Tire, Marie's, Mary Brown's, KFC, generic office low-rises, industrial parks, whatever else. They're the types of places that turn everything you do into an errand, not an experience. And you have to go to the core to find anything that feels all that different from a large American truck stop.

I think in a larger city you can have even shitty suburbs without getting quite that bad. Gun to my head, there's no question even I would choose Mississauga or Markham or Laval before Mount Pearl or Conception Bay South, even accounting for the fact it's easier to get to our core from the suburbs.
I think there is a lot of truth to your point about smaller cities. A smaller city may have only one or two "main street" shoe repair shops, and there might only be one or two neighbourhoods with true main streets in the entire city. So if you're in one of those, you'll almost certainly have a shoe repair shop (and many other unique businesses) close by. Even in a large city, using the shoe repair shop example again, there might be a market for 15 such shops across the city, but 20 viable neighbourhoods where they could be located. So a number of neighbourhoods won't have one. And people in those will take transit or drive to one of the 15. Like people in the Ottawa neighbourhood of New Edinburgh do when they want to buy booze. Even if it's totally urban and affluent.

Another thing about your assessment of St. John's is that in terms of amenities, in most of the world a city of your size and age would always have a downtown public library branch. It would also almost certainly have a downtown department store. I don't think you have one, do you?

This is not a knock on St. John's, just further evidence of the amenity gaps in Canadian cities in general.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 1:19 PM
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Another thing about downtown amenities...

Does St. John's have a downtown cinema?

If it doesn't don't feel bad. Consider that Ottawa doesn't have a downtown cinema that shows first-run movies. It does have a single screen art house/repertory cinema downtown though. But that's it.

There is also another inner city old cinema (non first run) cinema in south central Ottawa near Lansdowne Park.

All of the other cinemas are outside the core in malls or stand-alone multiplexes surrounded by a sea of parking.

Ottawa's hasn't gotten the downtown Scotiabank Theatre, etc. showpiece cinemas like some other cities have. Not yet anyway.

Also, the university in St John's isn't really downtown or in a walkable urban area either, AFAIK. Again, that's not unique to St. John's. Many much larger cities in Canada are like this too.
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 1:27 PM
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I don't believe there's a cinema, no. We have Reel Downtown that plays movies on the side of a building on Water Street during the summer but it's not current movies. There is an old porn theatre but I think that building is slated to be condos. Hasn't been a cinema for decades in any event.

University is awful to walk around and, yes, surrounded by suburbia. Much of it streetcar suburbia but still.

No downtown department store. Or close, really. Lots of clothing and houseware stores and the like but not under one roof.

Public transit is another strike. Walking, driving, or taking a cab are the only realistic, timely options. I can walk to the mall (30-40 mins) faster than the advertised bus routes from my street.
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Well, in a city like Paris, multi-millionaires don't have a choice of buying Cabbagetown or Parkdale-style homes with modest backyards because there aren't any at all in the départment 75 which makes up the city proper. That's also the case of the entire island of Manhattan I am pretty sure.

In a city like London they absolutely can though. Just really heavy on the "multi" part in multi-millionaires.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 1:46 PM
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Another thing about downtown amenities...

Does St. John's have a downtown cinema?

If it doesn't don't feel bad. Consider that Ottawa doesn't have a downtown cinema that shows first-run movies. It does have a single screen art house/repertory cinema downtown though. But that's it.
Ottawa used to have 2 First run cinema sites downtown. One in the World Exchange Plaza, the other in the Rideau Centre.

The thing is, with the current state of the Cinema industry and Hollywood in general, I'm not really sure that's a good metric to use right now. Cinemas want BIG screens so they can sell the experience. To house those BIG screens you need a lot of space and/or a way to hold a lot of people. In downtowns, that costs a lot of money, money the industry doesn't really have at the moment.

Plus, the chains here in Canada are also trying to make sure they have a captive audience so they're trying to get setups where they have complete control over the experience (and not have a mall foodcourt around the corner stealing their profits), which means more space and being away from some of the available places.

Give it another 5-10 years while the industry sorts itself out and figures out how to handle the new paradigms, and I'm sure Ottawa will find a new first run cinema setting up in the Downtown (or Byward Market) areas.
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 1:55 PM
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Ottawa used to have 2 First run cinema sites downtown. One in the World Exchange Plaza, the other in the Rideau Centre.

The thing is, with the current state of the Cinema industry and Hollywood in general, I'm not really sure that's a good metric to use right now. Cinemas want BIG screens so they can sell the experience. To house those BIG screens you need a lot of space and/or a way to hold a lot of people. In downtowns, that costs a lot of money, money the industry doesn't really have at the moment.

Plus, the chains here in Canada are also trying to make sure they have a captive audience so they're trying to get setups where they have complete control over the experience (and not have a mall foodcourt around the corner stealing their profits), which means more space and being away from some of the available places.

Give it another 5-10 years while the industry sorts itself out and figures out how to handle the new paradigms, and I'm sure Ottawa will find a new first run cinema setting up in the Downtown (or Byward Market) areas.
Oh, I agree that Ottawa will have one again eventually. In the Rideau-Byward district somewhere.
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:00 PM
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In a city like London they absolutely can though. Just really heavy on the "multi" part in multi-millionaires.
I am not so sure that's true if we're comparing apples to apples.

Without being ridiculous and only counting the tiny City of London which only has 10,000 people, we still can't use as a comparative what people commonly refer to as London which is 20 times the size of Manhattan and 15 times the size of Paris in area.

So if we use a 100 km2 central area for all four cities (London, Paris, Manhattan and the old Toronto), the first three cities don't have anything like Toronto does in terms of spacious, airy housing.

Of course if we use administrative boundaries regardless of size, you can easily live in New York City in a spacious SFH with a decent backyard. On Staten Island.
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:01 PM
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In a city like London they absolutely can though. Just really heavy on the "multi" part in multi-millionaires.
Toronto is Toronto because London is London, so yes. And I guess a lot of the rest of the English-speaking world too. If the English had built Continental-style courtyard apartments all Canadian cities would look very different.

My point was not so much that suburban-styled cities don't "count" or whatever, but more that on SSP, where most of us like traditionally urban cities, there remains too much of a focus on city size as far as infrastructure and urbanity are concerned.

It is as if cities must enjoy explosive growth and find their populations in the millions before they can endure such goodies as, say, Calgary's C-Train or Ottawa's O-train. Or for that matter an engaging central area. And so we wind up waiting on growth spurts and such.
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:06 PM
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Toronto go it's 0-train (TTC Subway)when it was Ottawas size in 1954.
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:07 PM
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Transit map for Nuremberg, Germany. Metro population: 760,000.

I know, I know... 'that's Europe'. But Canada isn't the US, and our largest cities have ridership rates that can compete with European cities.

What if our littler cities could too?
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:12 PM
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The Lausanne metro, urban area population 137,000:



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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:15 PM
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I spent some time in Copenhagen earlier this year and found it interesting that the heavy rail transit system actually seemed most developed in the lower-density suburban areas. I did some exploring and if anything lots of the suburbs seem less dense than the tightly packed GTA sprawl. This will change with the completion of the new circle metro line, but right now service in the central city seemed kind of sparse. It was still very easy to get around - mostly by bike but occasionally using the bus too. I assume the frequent service on suburban lines helps out with traffic in the city.
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:16 PM
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Lausanne. So ****ing irritating. I wish we had such nice things.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:22 PM
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That map of Nuremburg is impressive.

Nuremburg has the same population as Winnipeg, yet our "rapid transit" map, such as it is, consists of a single line with a few dots on it... basically the first part of the first leg of what will supposedly one day be a BRT system.

The real challenge is getting Winnipeggers to think differently, and I'm sure the challenge is the same in other Canadian cities that fall between that 50,000-1,500,000 population range. There is a certain acceptance of suburban subdivisions predicated on cul-de-sacs, single family homes and driving as the immutable natural order of things... no one ever questions road extensions and improvement projects because that's all Important Infrastructure, while rapid transit is basically a mix of grudgingly checking a box on the "big city" form ("look, we built a rapid transit line, we have rapid transit, what more do you want?") and providing a social service to the very young, very old and the poor.

That said, there has been increased interest in urban living here in recent years. Urban neighbourhoods and inner city suburbs that were very down at the heels 20 years ago are being revitalized to some extent. I wonder if some of that has to do with the fact that sprawl has gone on to the point where some commutes from the outer edges are simply becoming unbearable? Maybe there is a natural tipping point where, once standard issue subdivision homes simply become too far out to drive comfortably on a daily basis, that people start to look inward? That's when conditions become much more favourable for serious investment in transit and changes in land use policies.
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  #57  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:25 PM
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Train map for Adelaide, Australia. About the same size metro as Ottawa's.

A new world as opposed to old world city. Lots of SFHs and low density development in the area.

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  #58  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:30 PM
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Train map for Adelaide, Australia. About the same size metro as Ottawa's.

A new world as opposed to old world city. Lots of SFHs and low density development in the area.

Interestingly enough I believe Adelaide actually has a much lower transit ridership than Ottawa too. In general Australia has a lower transit modal share than Canada (although higher than the U.S.) despite having a more developed rail system.

According to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_Metro the daily ridership is only 33,000, although I'm not sure if this is measured in the same way as we do in North America.
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  #59  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:32 PM
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That said, there has been increased interest in urban living here in recent years. Urban neighbourhoods and inner city suburbs that were very down at the heels 20 years ago are being revitalized to some extent. I wonder if some of that has to do with the fact that sprawl has gone on to the point where some commutes from the outer edges are simply becoming unbearable? Maybe there is a natural tipping point where, once standard issue subdivision homes simply become too far out to drive comfortably on a daily basis, that people start to look inward?
I'd say that another issue is that inner-city areas are now a bargain compared to their suburban counterparts.

In the city I live, a new(ish) suburban home might run $100-$150k more than an equivalent closer to downtown. This effect is exaggerated the newer the home is. Aside from places like Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary, where closer to the center is better, maybe people are just (as silly as this sounds) being priced out of the castles they're building in the suburbs.
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  #60  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2017, 2:41 PM
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I spent some time in Copenhagen earlier this year and found it interesting that the heavy rail transit system actually seemed most developed in the lower-density suburban areas. I did some exploring and if anything lots of the suburbs seem less dense than the tightly packed GTA sprawl. This will change with the completion of the new circle metro line, but right now service in the central city seemed kind of sparse. It was still very easy to get around - mostly by bike but occasionally using the bus too. I assume the frequent service on suburban lines helps out with traffic in the city.


The S-train was really built as a way to facilitate suburbanisation – 'the finger plan'.

I think the plan is to make the metro the main inner-city transit method, but until the next phase opens in 2019 I still use the S-Tog much more. There aren't many stations, but the immediate core is small, so you can pretty much get to a lot of spots from Nørreport, Østerport, Vesterport, Central and maybe Dybbolsbro.
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