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  #11181  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2017, 8:15 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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... except for confidence votes, votes that implement the Liberal platform, and anything related to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms ...
Yeah, I recall we had a good laugh when this was discussed in here at the time.

"You can vote the way you want, with the caveat that any time the vote might have any actual consequence, then you will be forced to vote the way we tell you."
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  #11182  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2017, 8:17 PM
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I think it'll always be the exception to the rule, because if a Liberal MP more consistently voted against the Liberal bills, they wouldn't be a Liberal MP! On the vast majority of issues a Liberal MP is going to vote with the Liberal Party because if they didn't they'd be in some other party (or independent).
Statistically, that's not true at all; if all MPs always voted based on their best interpretation of their constituents' general opinion, we'd see a lot less votes happening to always follow the party line.

(If only because there are lots of ridings in which the current MP, regardless of party, won with a percentage of the vote ranging from high twenties % to high thirties %. So the unconditional support for the party line in such a riding can't be deemed acquired at all, especially not over the next four years. If the MPs were humans instead, they would actually have to pay attention to what their constituents think.)
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  #11183  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 12:34 AM
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I think the American system generally works better.. in an environment where politicians can actually work together across party lines. This was the case throughout most of the USA's modern history. Over the last 20 years or so, though, as partisan division in the US has gotten more and more bitter, it just leads to too much gridlock. Yes, gridlock can be a good thing if it leads to compromise, but lately, all it does is result in nothing ever getting done.

I'm also talking about the constitutional frameworks, obviously. At the more practical level there is a lot of things very wrong with the US system. Like excessive big-money politics and gerrymandering, for example. The fact that our laws do a fairly good job preventing both is one way in which we are very superior to the US.
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  #11184  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 1:08 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Well, obviously Commonwealth countries have had that type of system by default, not because it's good.

You have other first world countries that have different systems (USA, France, Netherlands...)

And you have first world countries who had our type of system due to their Commonwealth heritage, like New Zealand, and nonetheless made the decision to dump it in favor of a different model,
I'm not sure what you're saying, exactly. The Netherlands uses the same system of government as we do, as does New Zealand (they simply dumped their upper house). Other than France, the USA, and South Korea, pretty much every country in the first world uses a system like ours (either Constitutional Monarchy or Parliamentary Republic).
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  #11185  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 1:10 AM
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I think the American system generally works better..
I think that in theory their system works far better. In practice, it barely works at all.
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  #11186  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 1:13 AM
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I think the American system generally works better.. in an environment where politicians can actually work together across party lines.
The fact that Republicans and Democrats so rarely control all three branches of government, so compromise is a necessity of the day. Even within the parties, there is strong dissent which is routinely applauded (Rubio and Rand Paul are focus in their criticism of Trump, as are Sanders - who before 2015 was technically independent - and figures like Dennis Kucinich in the Democratic party).

I think it leads to legislation which has far more broad based appeal across the political spectrum, but at the same time, having individual congress people pushing a very narrow constituent agenda leads to a lot of shenanigans (like corn subsidies in Iowa going out of control), gridlock, and while individual congress-people are very popular in their districts, congress as a whole has abysmal approval ratings.
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  #11187  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 5:49 PM
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I doubt this is something his father would have done. Though times have changed it is true.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...hall-1.3940629
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  #11188  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 6:19 PM
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I'm in Sherby this week, I didn't know JT was here Sounds like I missed my chance...
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  #11189  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I doubt this is something his father would have done. Though times have changed it is true.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...hall-1.3940629
He did the same thing in Kingston with a francophone speaker.. he replied to them in English, saying it was necessary in order "for everyone to understand". Funny that the media noticed this one, but ignored when the opposite happened in Kingston. Double standard?

(For the record: I agree with JT on both accounts. In cities where one official language is very dominant demographically over the other, things like this need to be held in that language).
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  #11190  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
He did the same thing in Kingston with a francophone speaker.. he replied to them in English, saying it was necessary in order "for everyone to understand". Funny that the media noticed this one, but ignored when the opposite happened in Kingston. Double standard?

(For the record: I agree with JT on both accounts. In cities where one official language is very dominant demographically over the other, things like this need to be held in that language).

Thats what translators are for! Its Just an ignorant thing to do by a simpleton. Its pretty clear.
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  #11191  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
He did the same thing in Kingston with a francophone speaker.. he replied to them in English, saying it was necessary in order "for everyone to understand". Funny that the media noticed this one, but ignored when the opposite happened in Kingston. Double standard?

(For the record: I agree with JT on both accounts. In cities where one official language is very dominant demographically over the other, things like this need to be held in that language).
Based on what you're saying it sounds like you are against official bilingualism. So are a lot of people. We could save a lot of money by dumping that policy which puts about 80% of the population at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to getting jobs, etc. with the federal government.

As for how Justin handled things, I give him a failing grade. He's the one who brought that we are a "bilingual" country (sorry Justin, in reality we aren't) so he should have answered the people in the language they asked the question instead of being a complete dick. Apparently today he's saying he screwed up which is starting to be a common occurrence for him. Personally (leave politics out of it), if I could speak more than one language I would reply to the person in the language they spoke to me as long as I could converse in that language. Justin has no excuse for being a dick.
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  #11192  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Black Star View Post
Thats what translators are for! Its Just an ignorant thing to do by a simpleton. Its pretty clear.
No kidding. I hope the Liberal party is getting the email addresses they wanted out of this tour because they're sure not getting anything else that's positive from it.
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  #11193  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 12:20 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
He did the same thing in Kingston with a francophone speaker.. he replied to them in English, saying it was necessary in order "for everyone to understand". Funny that the media noticed this one, but ignored when the opposite happened in Kingston. Double standard?

(For the record: I agree with JT on both accounts. In cities where one official language is very dominant demographically over the other, things like this need to be held in that language).
Sherbrooke has been officially bilingual since absorbing the Anglo borough of Lennoxville in 2002 (whose bilingualism status was enshrined in Law 101 in the '70s). https://www.ville.sherbrooke.qc.ca/en/

I suppose our mayor's wife (who happens to be one of Trudeau's ministers) could've supplied him with that info...

Seems Kingston has some French language services as well, though:
https://www.cityofkingston.ca/reside...es-en-francais

So, was JT actually wrong on both counts?
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  #11194  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 12:28 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I doubt this is something his father would have done. Though times have changed it is true.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...hall-1.3940629
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Trudeau added that he was "surprised" to get so many questions in English in Quebec's Eastern Townships.
Wow, then he's really unaware of the typical profile of the kind of person 'round here who would do things like fly the Canadian flag or being enthusiastic about going out to see a Federal Liberal bigwig in the flesh.

I'm surprised he was surprised... thought he knew his demographic a bit better.
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  #11195  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 1:59 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Wow, then he's really unaware of the typical profile of the kind of person 'round here who would do things like fly the Canadian flag or being enthusiastic about going out to see a Federal Liberal bigwig in the flesh.

I'm surprised he was surprised... thought he knew his demographic a bit better.
Or maybe he does. And was conscious of the fact that anything that is labelled "Canada" or "Liberal" often turns into an predominantly (or at least disproportionately) anglo shindig, even in very predominantly francophone areas.

Perhaps he just wanted to avoid giving off those optics.
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  #11196  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 2:04 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Sherbrooke has been officially bilingual since absorbing the Anglo borough of Lennoxville in 2002 (whose bilingualism status was enshrined in Law 101 in the '70s). https://www.ville.sherbrooke.qc.ca/en/

I suppose our mayor's wife (who happens to be one of Trudeau's ministers) could've supplied him with that info...

Seems Kingston has some French language services as well, though:
https://www.cityofkingston.ca/reside...es-en-francais

So, was JT actually wrong on both counts?
The Ville de Sherbrooke is most definitely not "officially" bilingual. A city in Quebec can't be officially bilingual unless it has more than 50% of its residents who are anglophones. This does not prevent some of them from providing a certain amount of services in English. Montreal and Gatineau also do this but are not officially bilingual either.

Now, it could be that as a concession, the arrondissement that was once the town of Lennoxville has a kind of bilingual status that is grandfathered to it. This could be - I am not sure. But the whole city - no way.

In Gatineau, none of the former cities had bilingual status, and the most anglo of them all, Aylmer, was only about 35% anglophone so it did not qualify.

Though the law is different in Ontario, Kingston is not officially bilingual either. Though it offers some stuff in French.
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  #11197  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 2:09 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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The Ville de Sherbrooke is most definitely not "officially" bilingual. A city in Quebec can't be officially bilingual unless it has more than 50% of its residents who are anglophones. This does not prevent some of them from providing a certain amount of services in English. Montreal and Gatineau also do this but are not officially bilingual either.

Now, it could be that as a concession, the arrondissement that was once the town of Lennoxville has a kind of bilingual status that is grandfathered to it. This could be - I am not sure. But the whole city - no way.

In Gatineau, none of the former cities had bilingual status, and the most anglo of them all, Aylmer, was only about 35% anglophone so it did not qualify.
Correct, but when you have the status (due to having been >50% Anglo in the past) you don't lose it. Lennoxville had it, unlike anywhere in Gatineau from what you're saying, and due to that, that area of Sherbrooke has bilingual street signs, etc. and the current version of the City of Sherbrooke has to make a bunch of services available in English in a way Gatineau isn't forced to.
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  #11198  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 2:12 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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A city in Quebec can't be officially bilingual unless it has more than 50% of its residents who are anglophones.
To be exact, unless it had more than 50% of its residents who were anglophones at that point in 1977.
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  #11199  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 2:19 AM
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Correct, but when you have the status (due to having been >50% Anglo in the past) you don't lose it. Lennoxville had it, unlike anywhere in Gatineau from what you're saying, and due to that, that area of Sherbrooke has bilingual street signs, etc. and the current version of the City of Sherbrooke has to make a bunch of services available in English in a way Gatineau isn't forced to.
Does the city practise this bilingualism all over the city of just in the Lennoxville arrondissement?
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  #11200  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2017, 2:25 AM
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Does the city practise this bilingualism all over the city of just in the Lennoxville arrondissement?
Bilingual street signs, parking signs, etc.? Only in the Lennoxville borough, obviously. But all the merged city's municipal services that aren't offered anymore in the old Lennoxville Town Hall (which is now the borough office with less staff than back when it was a city; many things got consolidated) do have to be available in English (at least upon request), AFAIK. I know for sure they were available to my friend and business partner who's an Anglo, at all times, from 2014-2016, without problem.

In Gatineau, any city official could legally fully get away with "sorry, I no speak" and washing their hands of it; all documents could be unilingual and no one could say anything.

I'm not saying every city employee is able to speak English, far from it, but the difference is still there, in Gatineau if you show up as someone who doesn't want to speak a single word that isn't English language, you might well fail and end up going back home defeated, while in Sherbrooke if you stick to your guns you'll eventually prevail.
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