HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #12981  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 9:05 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 12,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I think JT is politically savvy, but not in this case. I think that the best argument is the moral high ground: we don't find a backdoor way to go against our own rules of torture, and we don't torture children. Saying it could have potentially cost $40M makes it a cost issue, which plays directly into the hands of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation* which isn't going to support the Liberals one way or another.

*Increasingly, I consider the Canadian Taxpayers Federation to be our version of the NRA - the rigid, single-issue advocacy group that undermines our society - except instead of being gun nuts they are "nickel and diming" nuts, which is quite Canadian when you think about it.


Finally, I think the $10 million figure is reasonable considering that most of it pays a team of lawyers who basically worked pro bono on this case for a decade.
Wait - the Canadian Taxpayers Foundation wanted Canada to spend more public resources on a case it seemed bound to lose? That has got to be a first!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12982  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 2:26 AM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is offline
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 4,300
It's happening. It's happening now. The postwar world order is now officially, irrevocably, undeniably over. And it had very little to do with the orange infant in the White House. The twentieth century didn't actually end on September 11th, 2001. In retrospect, the hopes of 1989 look very far away, even quaint. Which is sad to me, as I came of age during that admittedly naive time when we were supposed to be moving away from international or ideological struggles.

Future historians will undoubtedly mark the transition to the new Sinopolar* era at some point during the mid-2010s. Because of this:

Quote:
China sends troops to first overseas naval base in Djibouti
Military began construction of the ‘logistics facility’ in the Horn of Africa last year

Ships carrying Chinese military personnel for Beijing’s first overseas military base, in Djibouti in the Horn of Africa, have left China to begin setting up the facility, the state news agency Xinhua reported.

Djibouti’s position on the northwestern edge of the Indian Ocean has fuelled worries in India that it would become another of China’s “string of pearls” of military alliances and assets ringing India, including Bangladesh, Myanmar and Sri Lanka.

China began construction of a logistics base in strategically located Djibouti last year that will resupply naval vessels taking part in peacekeeping and humanitarian missions off the coasts of Yemen and Somalia, in particular.

This will be China’s first overseas naval base, although Beijing officially terms it a logistics facility.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplo...-base-djibouti
The "post-Cold War era" turns out not to have been much of an era at all, and will end up as a minor footnote in history, perhaps a transition period, subsumed into the twentieth century. Which, if you want to count an announcement in the media as a way of marking a timepost for these things (and really, why not?), apparently ended on Wednesday.

The rumblings in the Arab world? The fear of Islamic terrorism? All a side show in the larger scheme of things. Which is not to pooh-pooh the fact that assholes blowing up concerts in Manchester and buses in Israel have been doing their best to wreak devastation on as many people as their puny means can muster. It's just that none of that ever had the potential to be so wide-ranging or, if you will, apocalyptic.

People the world over are eventually going to be unable to not think about China in the same way that they haven't been able to not think about the United States. It will be interesting to watch and see when and if the former overtakes the latter.


*I honestly just came up with that myself, but a quick Google search shows the term here: https://www.cgdev.org/article/sinopo...iness-standard. I think we'll all be using it in short order.

Last edited by rousseau; Jul 15, 2017 at 10:47 PM. Reason: Grammar
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12983  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 3:52 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
I used to be THAT guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 28,696
Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
It's happening. It's happening now. The postwar world order is now officially, irrevocably, undeniably over. And it had very little to do with the orange infant in the White House. The twentieth century didn't actually end on September 11th, 2001. In retrospect, the hopes of 1989 look very far away, even quaint. Which is sad to me, as I came of age during that admittedly naive time when we were supposed to be moving away from international or ideological struggles.

Future historians will undoubtedly mark the transition to the new Sinopolar* era at some point during the mid-2010s. Because of this:



The "post-Cold War era" turns out not to have been much of an era at all, and will end up as a minor footnote in history, perhaps a transition period, subsumed into the twentieth century. Which, if you want to count an announcement in the media as a way of marking a timepost for these things (and really, why not?), apparently ended on Wednesday.

The rumblings in the Arab world? The fear of Islamic terrorism? All a side show in the larger scheme of things. Which is not to pooh-pooh the fact that assholes blowing up concerts in Manchester and buses in Israel have been doing their best to wreak devastation on as many people as their puny means can muster. It just that none of that ever had the potential to be so wide-ranging or, if you will, apocalyptic.

People the world over are eventually going to be unable to not think about China in the same way that they haven't been able to not think about the United States. It will be interesting to watch and see when and if the former overtakes the latter.


*I honestly just came up with that myself, but a quick Google search shows the term here: https://www.cgdev.org/article/sinopo...iness-standard. I think we'll all be using it in short order.
Thank you for this. It is aways good to have people thinking.
__________________
Va où il y a des livres. - Robert Sabatier

Last edited by Acajack; Jul 15, 2017 at 10:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12984  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 4:05 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,148
I'm not sure how much Chinese history is taught in schools these days, but do you know of things like the Opium wars? The Chinese events of World War 2? The Chinese civil war?

China has historically been an economic superpower, for almost 1000 years leading up to the opium wars.



The opium wars were essentially some of the lowest exploitative tactics in the history of the British Empire, which led to a chain of events which set China back for centuries. What followed was an absolute gong show of exploitation and manufactured vulnerability, with uneven influence and uneven treaties passing from British, to the Soviet Union, to Russia, to America.

I understand people are a bit concerned and uncomfortable about the growing power of China, but to think after all their history, they still never, until recently, felt the need to maintain even a single overseas military presence in the form of a base, considering how often over the last few centuries they have been continually exploited by foreign countries, is nothing short of amazing.

Sure, it's uncomfortable, but to herald it as the coming of the apocalypse or on the same level as radical terrorism is a bit hyperbolic.

United States trade partnerships with China lifted an unheard of number of people out of poverty. China's investments in Africa have the potential to do the same in that region, and indeed, Africa has been progressing rapidly in step with China's rise. There are many positives here, and drawing the parallels as you did just seems a tad wee bit absurd and sensationalist.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12985  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 4:33 AM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is offline
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 4,300
There's so much to say about this that it's hard to know where to start.

But here's one thing to consider: While lots of people will ruminate darkly about how authoritarian China is, I think a fair case can be made that its long history and utter grounding in its culture and tradition (think about it: they tried, but Confucius and Tang poetry and everything else Chinese couldn't be destroyed by forty years of Communism) will, erm, have something of a civilizing effect on its geopolitical power similar to how the Enlightenment did for the West.

Which is to say that some on the margins will still get squashed like they did in various Western colonies and the world wars and Latin America and Vietnam, etc., but you can't deny that the Western project produced a lot of good, too. I know this all sounds cavalier, like playing with pawns on a chessboard, but it's hard not to speak in these terms when you're talking about tectonic realignments of power.

And it's not as if China is a static entity anyway. It has and will continue to adopt the Western things it finds useful. I'm quite certain that the Western idea of individual human rights will survive in some form or another.

So I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords. Heh. No, I know my post reads like this. The rise of China will invariably result in a lot of devastation, and the sorts of things I'm saying will ring hollow for millions. As have encomiums to US "freedom" for millions. We're all powerless to effect any influence on what is happening. Staunching the slow-motion psychotic crack-up of the conservative right in the US that has produced a string of carnival clowns in Bush, Palin and Trump wouldn't have made a difference in China's march to world prominence. "Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" is the apt saying.

The US could smooth some of the rough edges of the transition over the next few decades by electing non-idiots, but then that would entail having a smaller constituency of idiots who enjoy voting idiots into power. Does anyone see that happening?

So here we are.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12986  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 4:40 AM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is offline
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 4,300
Quote:
Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
Sure, it's uncomfortable, but to herald it as the coming of the apocalypse or on the same level as radical terrorism is a bit hyperbolic.
...
There are many positives here, and drawing the parallels as you did just seems a tad wee bit absurd and sensationalist.
As ever, you don't know what you're talking about. But I'm sure you'll spend pages and pages proving it.

Carry on.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12987  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 4:48 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,148
Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
The rise of China will invariably result in a lot of devastation, and the sorts of things I'm saying will ring hollow for millions.
Your posts really do read like fetishizing European and American exceptionalism. Sure, "Western" culture exported a long of good things to the world, but they also produced things like the opium wars, overthrowing democratically elected governments like Iran, constant wars, constant exploitation, and a whole lot of death, destruction, and putting countries like China back for hundreds of years for their own gains.

China, which has since recorded history been the most populous country in the world. These are your fellow humans you are talking about.

China, whose culture has contributed to many foundational concepts of modern civilization.

China, whose millennial+ long reign as a world superpower did not cause a fraction of the destruction as the British Empire, American aggression, Soviet aggression, the Napoleonic wars, or any other countless "Western"/"European" world exports.

It seems to me, the idea that China's rise will invariably result in a lot of destruction is a very European/Western way of thinking, because "that's how we did it", but in reality, it doesn't have a lot of historical evidence with how China does things, did things, and how they have culturally evolved.

Arguably, the last time the Chinese were so fully in control of their country and their destiny was the Ming dynasty, whose main efforts regarding war were expelling the previous Mongols rulers and fighting the incoming Manchus.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12988  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 4:56 AM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is offline
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 4,300
Quote:
Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
Your posts...
...don't say what you say they say. Fer crissakes, your dishonest and argumentative nature tires me, and I won't respond to your trolling anymore, but I will this once. Here's what I actually said.

Quote:
The rise of China will invariably result in a lot of devastation, and the sorts of things I'm saying will ring hollow for millions. As have encomiums to US "freedom" for millions.
I gave a rather balanced estimation of the comparatively insalubrious nature of empire. I did not write what you say I did.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12989  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 5:18 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,148
For the record, I'm talking about broad ideas, and you are talking about broad ideas. You don't have to respond to every point I'm making and I'm not necessarily responding to every point you made, but you did explicitly make reference to things like Islamic terrorism and invoked apocalyptic language.

Many people are worried about the "communist" aspect of China, but historically speaking, the structure has been working (for some definition of working) for modern China. There is a lot of problems with it a system, including human rights abuse, but it's hard to argue other systems have not begat their own long history of similar abuse, with things like Guantanamo bay, Bengal famine, Irish famine, and so on.

From the outside, it is a rather paranoid system of government, but while we were making jokes about the Great Firewall of China, Snowden revealed things like Prism and how CSIS has some of the worst oversight of any national spying program.

Historical context is also important, and no country in the world suffered as damaging a rebellion as something like the Taiping Rebellion.

Taken in context with things like the Opium wars, where foreign influence would like nothing more than a bunch of falun gong crazies to gain power and cause instability - on balance with things like the Taiping Rebellion, a choice is being made between the lesser of two perceived evils.

Generally, I think there is a severe lack of understanding of Chinese history, with things like the opium wars not even broadly known or glossed over, China and Japan conflicts glossed over during world war 2, and systemic unfair treaties and political influence sabotaging China not really well understood. The opium wars are a mere footnote on the British Empire's history, Nazi Germany and Pearl Harbour is/are front of mind when discussing world war 2, and older people generally think it was quite natural for Hong Kong to be ruled by the British (while, somewhat ironically, not understanding that modern China gives them more representation than the British ever did).

I don't mean to excuse problems with communist China, only to broadly speak about a context that tends to be lacking when it is brought up. In general, I would place the largest victims of modern Chinese communism within the boarders of China (save for North Korea) - something that generally cannot be said about historical Western empire building (and let's be honest, modern Western empire building as well).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12990  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 5:22 AM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,180
For Khadr I don't think it's the apology or receiving some compensation that is the problem but rather the amount he received. $10.5 million puts him in the top 1% of the population. Thing is people are also put off by the fact that he was gong for a $20 million settlement reinforcing millions who believe that he is milking the system and asking for far more than he is due.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12991  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 2:09 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 12,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
For Khadr I don't think it's the apology or receiving some compensation that is the problem but rather the amount he received. $10.5 million puts him in the top 1% of the population. Thing is people are also put off by the fact that he was gong for a $20 million settlement reinforcing millions who believe that he is milking the system and asking for far more than he is due.
The amount seems high, and each case is different, but the reported settlement is not out of line with the compensation received by Maher Arar, for example. One assumes the folks at the Dept of Justice have pretty standardized criteria for calculating a reasonable settlement.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12992  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 4:25 PM
kiwi's Avatar
kiwi kiwi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 173
I know this is a little off topic, but I think the main goal of the government should be to keep people safe. What is the best way to do this?
__________________
TrudeauMetre

https://www.trudeaumetre.ca/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12993  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 4:41 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 12,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi View Post
I know this is a little off topic, but I think the main goal of the government should be to keep people safe. What is the best way to do this?
Public security is indeed a core responsibility of government. Not sure if I understand where you are coming from with the question, but istm that the "best way" is to develop and maintain a robust capability to identify and respond to real and potential threats, with full respect for the Constitution and the rule of law, and, one would hope, with the full cooperation of the public.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12994  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 5:19 PM
kiwi's Avatar
kiwi kiwi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Public security is indeed a core responsibility of government. Not sure if I understand where you are coming from with the question, but istm that the "best way" is to develop and maintain a robust capability to identify and respond to real and potential threats, with full respect for the Constitution and the rule of law, and, one would hope, with the full cooperation of the public.
It's just that every time I watch the news I see so much crime. Something has to be done.
__________________
TrudeauMetre

https://www.trudeaumetre.ca/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12995  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 5:24 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lévis, QC
Posts: 15,939
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi View Post
It's just that every time I watch the news I see so much crime. Something has to be done.
Where do you live? Chances are it's mostly not the Feds' fault.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12996  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 5:33 PM
kiwi's Avatar
kiwi kiwi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Where do you live? Chances are it's mostly not the Feds' fault.
Calgary but a lot of the increased crime can be attributed to the bad economy.
__________________
TrudeauMetre

https://www.trudeaumetre.ca/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12997  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 5:36 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lévis, QC
Posts: 15,939
You said it - the fact that global demand for you guys' dead dinos went sharply down can't be blamed on anyone in Ottawa. Harper couldn't prevent it, Trudeau can't change it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12998  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 5:45 PM
kiwi's Avatar
kiwi kiwi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
You said it - the fact that global demand for you guys' dead dinos went sharply down can't be blamed on anyone in Ottawa. Harper couldn't prevent it, Trudeau can't change it.
Maybe the best thing he can do is not make a bad situation worse.

Trudeau is trying to do two things both the economy and the environment he has to pick one or the other.
__________________
TrudeauMetre

https://www.trudeaumetre.ca/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12999  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 5:49 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lévis, QC
Posts: 15,939
Considering how diminishing returns apply to both, it seems to me the best thing to do is precisely to make sure we don't pick only one of them... Speaking in general of course.

If something's fantastic for the economy but slightly bad for the environment, we probably should decide it's okay to go ahead with it.
If something's good for the economy but awful for the environment, we shouldn't accept that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13000  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2017, 7:48 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 12,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi View Post
It's just that every time I watch the news I see so much crime. Something has to be done.
Well, without going into whether crime is more/less prevalent today, what makes you think something should be done other that what is already being done? What would that look like - are you thinking in terms of law enforcement or in terms of social measures that might reduce crime incentives? I'm not aware of anything that would indicate a strong link in Canada between law enforcement measures and crime rates.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:34 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.