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  #21  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 4:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ravman View Post
cheaper while the employees are getting a decent wage...

your ideal plan gives the execs the high wages while giving the front line workers nothing
Now that's just putting words in my mouth.

Note that a decent wage does not equate to being overpaid.


Since when did I propose giving front line workers nothing? Do they even deserve a significant raise in the first place? And what would that raise be merited on?


Higher pay for experienced professional executives is based on their experience, thus previous work performance, and their education level. It's not a free ride. Not to mention that higher pay is often the only way the hire experienced and qualified individuals to maintain an efficient system. If an executive has two options: 1) staying with Hong Kong MTR company with an annual wage of CAD$250,000...or 2) moving to Vancouver to work with Vancouver's Translink for just $100,000.....which option do you think he/she would choose?
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  #22  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 4:21 AM
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Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
I understand you are still not out in the real world aka a student and one day you will be and you will find companies treat employees like crap if you're lucky to get a decent job in the job market today

I can take unions or not - they do have their role and their place - I personally hated my union it did jack sh*t for me and my fellow employees most of the time but it did provide us with some good benefits and a decent contract when it needed to be done - other than that they were pretty useless

private companies are putting profits before people more and more now while making the higher ups wealthy beyond their needs

I agree safeway employees making $20 was ridiculous but they no longer make huge money as most of the ones that were were bought out and wages were made more realistic - I worked at RCSS and it was "union" but again it was useless and RCSS gets away with a ton of crap that the union just ignores as they get their dues at least thats how it was when i was there many years ago...

anyway I think they have a purpose and a role still - greed is getting much worse

the government unions do help to set wages that the private sector will match or exceed and I value their role in that
FYI, where I am employed I am also a union member. And I do get paid quite a bit, even in this job market, but it's only fair as I am one of the higher ups and I do have a pretty stressful job with constant deadlines....not to mention thousands of people probably wouldn't be too happy with me if I didn't do my job in a matter of days, so it's a pretty important job within the organization.

Again, I couldn't care about private unions. It's the public ones that matter, on a taxpayer point of view.

Unions do have their roles and place in the employment world. There's no question about that.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 4:48 AM
dreambrother808 dreambrother808 is online now
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Once again, the important thing is balance. However, in a day and age where the gap between the rich and the poor is growing, blaming unions fighting for middle class wages seems a bit out of touch with reality.

I think this also comes down to issues of class, and more specifically our own personal experiences. I grew up in a blue collar family. Even though I went to, god forbid, a public school, I still succeeded academically. Perhaps if I had grown up in a wealthy neighbourhood, in a wealthy family, I would be more out of touch with those kinds of experiences. I would value my own and those of people who were/are close to me in my life as being more important. For me, my sympathies lie with the people I know and knew.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 4:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
FYI, where I am employed I am also a union member. And I do get paid quite a bit, even in this job market, but it's only fair as I am one of the higher ups and I do have a pretty stressful job with constant deadlines....not to mention thousands of people probably wouldn't be too happy with me if I didn't do my job in a matter of days, so it's a pretty important job within the organization.

Again, I couldn't care about private unions. It's the public ones that matter, on a taxpayer point of view.

Unions do have their roles and place in the employment world. There's no question about that.
than why are you against the bc ferries unions?
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  #25  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 5:01 AM
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than why are you against the bc ferries unions?
I never was against the BC Ferries unions, as I didn't know much about them. Rather, the unions for Translink and the BCTF.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 5:11 AM
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I think the argument against BC Ferry unions are that a lot of people beleive that they are overpaid, I fully understand that they are all trained fire/life safety personnel on top of their regular jobs but their wages are still hard to swallow for the average person.
The biggest dig though has to be that BC Ferries was forced to reinstate the capt of the ferry that sunk, not sure how anyone can argue that's a good thing and keep a straight face.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 5:15 AM
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I think the argument against BC Ferry unions are that a lot of people beleive that they are overpaid, I fully understand that they are all trained fire/life safety personnel on top of their regular jobs but their wages are still hard to swallow for the average person.
The biggest dig though has to be that BC Ferries was forced to reinstate the capt of the ferry that sunk, not sure how anyone can argue that's a good thing and keep a straight face.
Unbelievable.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 6:39 AM
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The validity of the Foundation Skills Assessment is a whole different issue than the topic at hand. I fully support any teacher in advocating change so long as they do so through proper channels. What the BCTF has done in recent years is turn the public school system into a political circus, and motivated by the union's desire for power teachers have happily dragged their students down face first. Shameful, really.
although this has nothing to do with this thread, i'd like to throw in my opinion on this issue. I graduated from one of the poorer secondary schools in the vancouver district this year, so I believe I was the second year of the FSA's for the grade 4 exam. Back then parents were largely the ones pulling their kids out of the FSA's not teachers. I'd have to agree with ravman though the FSA's are a joke, that seem to benefit the Fraser Institute. The publc school systems are in chaos though, are school actually had to give out these things called iFlirtz quizzes that they then sold the results to students. The government also decided to switch the graduation program requirements completely revamping them 3 times since I entered grade 8, and well the healthy food vending machines completely killed that source revenue in our school, considering a 7/11 is only a 5 minute walk away.... okay enough rambling this probably derserves its own thread in the Political section.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 6:45 AM
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The government also decided to switch the graduation program requirements completely revamping them 3 times since I entered grade 8
Yes, because they were testing out different ones. Don't complain: the earlier requirements with the first generation graduation portfolio was horrendous.

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and well the healthy food vending machines completely killed that source revenue in our school, considering a 7/11 is only a 5 minute walk away...
Theoretically, you aren't supposed to leave school grounds once you've entered the school. Personally, I think the healthy snack thing should've been implemented long ago and I don't think they are taking it far enough... Can juice? Did you see how much sugar that thing has? Highschool cafeterias still sell many items that don't meet the code.

But yes, enough with the politics.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 7:11 AM
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Good god, Provincial Exams and Planning 10.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 1:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
That's the price you pay for professionals to work in Translink: accountants, successful businessmen - people with experience. Not just anyone that gets elected and who could potentially only have a high school diploma.

I'd be willing to pay even more for execs if we could get hire people from London Underground, Hong Kong MTR, and Hong Kong CityBus.
I'd like to see what Ken Hardie and friends are paid compared to their international counterparts. In fact, a total expense breakdown of Translink would be very interesting.

I'm all for paying top dollar for the best talent (preferably through incentive plans), and I don't mind that bus drivers and whatnot get decent wages, but there's simply not enough transparency at Translink.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 1:42 PM
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Does anyone beleive that if there were no public unions that the government would be hiring children and having them work 60hrs/wk for less then min wage?
The truth is government jobs pay pretty well have good benefits and great job security compared to the private sector, that would not change if they didn't have unions.
In the private sector for the most part you have a choice whether you join a union outfit or not, if you want to work for the government that choice is taken away from you.
Well, I should point out that although I think the BCTF and the Nurses' Union are among the worst offenders, it was still the Liberal government that came in and tore up existing contracts. I find that to be equally despicable. Nobody can claim the moral high ground in that situation.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 1:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
I think the argument against BC Ferry unions are that a lot of people beleive that they are overpaid, I fully understand that they are all trained fire/life safety personnel on top of their regular jobs but their wages are still hard to swallow for the average person.
The biggest dig though has to be that BC Ferries was forced to reinstate the capt of the ferry that sunk, not sure how anyone can argue that's a good thing and keep a straight face.
Yes. I know some people who are longshoremen, and a similar situation applies. They make good money, which I don't have too much of a problem with, but the fact that you can't fire them for gross negligence and safety issues, etc. is the main problem. A similar situation exists with teachers.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 2:12 PM
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I say we cut the fat all around:
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The B.C. Liberal government's caucus has decided to accept a major increase in politicians' salaries, ranging from a 29-per-cent hike for MLAs to more than a 50-per-cent jump for Premier Gordon Campbell.
Not to get political. But in general I think wage cuts should start at the top, instead of what's usually done, start at the bottom.

Also, what's with this sense of entitlement that people have that are in a managerial position.

In reality, different people are good at different things. You don't ask an accountant to fix your car, after all.

Really, any skilled professional in any profession should be compensated more or less similarly.

And yes, I know I live in a utopian world unencumbered by current realities.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 7:48 PM
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Yes. I know some people who are longshoremen, and a similar situation applies. They make good money, which I don't have too much of a problem with, but the fact that you can't fire them for gross negligence and safety issues, etc. is the main problem. A similar situation exists with teachers.
thats not totally true - union members can be fired - yes there is more of a process such as 3 strikes kind of thing - but who hasn't screwed up on the job at least once - should they get fired for one mistake? union or not its pretty unrealistic to fire people so quickly

there is disciplinary action too - such as taking away overtime and other "perks" people do learn
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  #36  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 8:16 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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thats not totally true - union members can be fired - yes there is more of a process such as 3 strikes kind of thing - but who hasn't screwed up on the job at least once - should they get fired for one mistake? union or not its pretty unrealistic to fire people so quickly

there is disciplinary action too - such as taking away overtime and other "perks" people do learn
I have personal examples that involve individuals doing things that would by criminally negligent in the real world, possibly causing injury or death. Not only that, but hundreds of thousands in damages. Being drunk/stoned at work, etc. Results? "banned" from that type of work, but not all work, for a period of 2 weeks, and even that was grieved.

I'm not saying it's the norm, but there are plenty of union workers that deserve to be fired immediately. Everybody knows a moron at work who can't do their job worth anything, but there are a lot less in the non-unionized workforce (though they do exist).
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  #37  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2009, 8:19 PM
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yeh but these companies hired them in the first place - maybe they need to do better HR and screen prospective employees better

as for stoned and drunk people - that happens just as much in non union jobs and most get away with it too
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  #38  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2009, 12:08 AM
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but who hasn't screwed up on the job at least once - should they get fired for one mistake?
If your boat sinks and two people die, you should be fired. I don't care if it was the first mate and officer of the watch who were on the bridge at the time, it's your responsibility that the two of them are actually doing their job instead of fucking each other.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2009, 12:28 AM
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As I understand it at thee time of the Queen of the North sinking the captain was on a scheduled meal break, so the people who were entrusted with the bridge during that time should have fulfilled their responsibilities.

That route ae that time of the year is a 22 hour sailing , so the captain is not going to be on the Bridge the full sailing.
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  #40  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2009, 5:46 PM
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Unions aren't the issue here. Nor is TransLink "bloated" with expensive execs. This is a billion dollar operation, and spending some money on the people running the organization is essential. It's always been my understanding that TransLink has consistently remained understaffed throughout it's history.

TransLink's continuous problem has been a shortage of funding. TransLink started in the late 90's with huge goals and aspirations, but when it sought the money to turn those dreams into reality, they were shot down. That's why, a couple years later, around 2005-20007, we were really feeling the effects of the delayed orders for new buses and SkyTrains.

It's been amplified now however, with the Provincial Transit Plan (not that that is bad thing). We are seeking even more dramatic transit expansion, and are asking TransLink to pay a share of that (plus future operating costs). That's a lot of new infrastructure that needs to be paid for somehow, and the money has to come from somewhere. Considering the Province isn't willing to cough it up, taxes, fees, and levies at the local level will have to be implemented.

We are not going to find substantial revenues by slashing half the TransLink board or staff. Nor can we hesitate once again and refuse to properly fund our transport system - lest we seek to enjoy even more bus pass ups, traffic jams, and SkyTrain service delays.
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