Rural Commuter Rail

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

“To move forward on a project of this size we need backup information. What’s the population? What’s the condition of the tracks? What are the agreements with the track owners? There’s a whole lot of things that need to be in place,” Ali said.

After the venture capitalists do their due diligence, I can't see them moving forward. The answers to the above questions are as follows:

Q. What’s the population?
A. Very small

Q. What’s the condition of the tracks?
A. In most cases very poor or torn up.

Q. What are the agreements with the track owners?
A. None. In fact, owner of the most crucial part (the POW Bridge) is upset with MOOSE and will likely resist making any arrangements.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by mxg308

Because the project would cross an interprovincial bridge, Moose says a rarely used section of the Constitution would exempt it from provincial regulation, meaning it would need only federal approval to go ahead.

Interesting, that explains why all three proposed lines cross the river. Two of them use the POW bridge, so that becomes the most important piece of the puzzle. With the Trillium line already at capacity, I don't know how they expect to operate south of Bayview though. As for the bridge to Quyon, the track to it has been torn up to it and would need to be relaid (not impossible, but expensive).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Interesting, that explains why all three proposed lines cross the river. Two of them use the POW bridge, so that becomes the most important piece of the puzzle. With the Trillium line already at capacity, I don't know how they expect to operate south of Bayview though. As for the bridge to Quyon, the track to it has been torn up to it and would need to be relaid (not impossible, but expensive).

They can pay to double the track, or the trains could follow trillium line trains.

Also, I don't see how federal regulation is particularly advantageous.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I'm all for expanding transit but this proposal is... odd.

Isn't it a bit presumptuous to claim half the Trillium line corridor as part of their plan? Do they somehow expect to be able to share those tracks with the Trillium line trains?

Yeah, that's one of the parts of this proposal that I'm stuggling to understand as well. The proposal assumes that they will share some of the stops with the Trillium line while using different equipment. That seems like a big assumption to make, particularly since (at least publicly) the relationship between MOOSE and OC Transpo appears to be very cold.

[Kitchissippi]

The other truly laughable detail is the Gatineau River crossing. That bridge is already busy being used as the Rapibus route and is only one lane and track superimposed. It's bad enough dealing with regulations regarding mixing heavy rail and LRT, I can't imagine the rush hour scenario where commuter trains and BRT share the same narrow unidirectional ROW

Since their concept relies on having an interprovincial crossing for the federal regulation loophole to be valid, the only route left that they can operate without impacting the far more important urban transit system is Bayview to the Casino

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Horus

Yeah, that's one of the parts of this proposal that I'm stuggling to understand as well. The proposal assumes that they will share some of the stops with the Trillium line while using different equipment. That seems like a big assumption to make, particularly since (at least publicly) the relationship between MOOSE and OC Transpo appears to be very cold.

It looks like their plan is to go to the CTA and get an order to access the Capital Railways track. I doubt they would get approval without paying for mitigation.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Since their concept relies on having an interprovincial crossing for the federal regulation loophole to be valid, the only route left that they can operate without impacting the far more important urban transit system is Bayview to the Casino

It isn't really a loophole, both STO and OCTranspo are federally regulated (because they operate interprovincial services).

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It isn't really a loophole, both STO and OCTranspo are federally regulated (because they operate interprovincial services).

It's a loophole in a sense that they can only demand use of the ROW if they are providing an interprovincial service.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

It's a loophole in a sense that they can only demand use of the ROW if they are providing an interprovincial service.

Capital railways (i.e. the trillium line) is a federally regulated railway, they could make the same requests regardless. Of course they wouldn't need the trillium line if they weren't trying to run an interprovincial service.

[lrt's friend]

I don't see having to lay new track as being that problematic as compared to using decrepit track that needs to replaced anyway. We saw that with the Trillium Line.

The biggest problems are using track that is already at capacity and mixing different types of transit vehicles on the same right of way.

It is also too bad that the most promising destinations are not included. That is Kemptville, Carleton Place and Rockland, which are all growing communities. All are on abandoned right of ways but Rockland's right of way has long ago been obliterated. Perhaps Moose should suggest using the Confederation Line track and build track from Trim Road to Rockland. We will see how the City of Ottawa would react to that. Of course, maybe the idea of bi-modal trains may make that not as out of the question as some might think. It would also reduce the need to widen the 174 between Orleans and Rockland.

It might even be a good idea to re-lay track on the old CPR right of way through south Orleans and onto Navan and Sarsfield. That may be less contentious than using the Trillium Line right of way if we make sure that the track shared with VIA rail is double tracked.

[Arcologist]

This is all a pipe dream...

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

This is all a pipe dream...

Of course. How would these small towns generate enough ridership to justify a $500M investment or more?

[Kitchissippi]

What if OC Transpo says to Moose: Yes you can use the track... between 1 am and 5 am

[1overcosc]

All of this is certainly possible but the required investment would be huge. Repairing lots of tracks, for one. VIA would never let them use their tracks without building more of them, which Moose would have to foot the bill for. Two tracks aren't enough.. with Moose trains stopping more frequently than VIA trains, there'd probably have to be 3 or 4.. and most bridges aren't wide enough for more than double-tracking so replace all of those too. Ouch. Not to mention fixing up that Gatineau River bridge as mentioned above. I doubt Moose could even remotely come close to raising enough private capital for it all.

The only way I can see this happening is if they get some stupid billionaire investor who throws money at them not realizing that they're never going to make it back.

[Uhuniau]

If Chinese investors want to spend a lot of money building rail transit in the national capital region, I have some ideas!

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

If Chinese investors want to spend a lot of money building rail transit in the national capital region, I have some ideas!

Would it be spelled S U B W A Y?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

All of this is certainly possible but the required investment would be huge. Repairing lots of tracks, for one. VIA would never let them use their tracks without building more of them, which Moose would have to foot the bill for. Two tracks aren't enough.. with Moose trains stopping more frequently than VIA trains, there'd probably have to be 3 or 4.. and most bridges aren't wide enough for more than double-tracking so replace all of those too.

I agree with your overall point, but a double tracked line has a lot of capacity (service as frequent as every few minutes) and this would be maybe an hourly service. On the Via line, even existing infrastructure might be workable of the moose trains ran during the gaps in via service.

[kevinbottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Perhaps Moose should suggest using the Confederation Line track and build track from Trim Road to Rockland. We will see how the City of Ottawa would react to that.

Moose is planning on using bi-level trains. Could the Confederation Line even accommodate that with the bridges at Jeanne D'Arc and Orleans Blvd?

[kevinbottawa]

There's a big chance this whole thing will fail, but what if this Moose plan actually works? This could be a Made in Ottawa model that other cities imitate- "Property-Powered Rail" (just visited their website). Either way, I commend them for thinking outside the box and actually doing something.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

There's a big chance this whole thing will fail, but what if this Moose plan actually works? This could be a Made in Ottawa model that other cities imitate- "Property-Powered Rail" (just visited their website). Either way, I commend them for thinking outside the box and actually doing something.

"It can't be done because Ottawa" is the defacto approach about everything and anything in this city. I guess people feel safe in not expecting things to materialize. God forbid we might actually win, at anything... It was like that for the Sens, the Canadian Tire Center (then called the Palladium), the Trillium line, the first proposal for the Confed line, the second proposal for the Confed line, the tunnel under downtown, the Red Blacks, TD Place, the retail at TD Place, the Sens' new arena at LeBreton, any new condo project because-where-are-we-going-to-find-the-people-to-live-in-them-and-the-sky-is-falling... You get the ideal. Ottawa, where everything is impossible but where things happen anyway, just to piss you off. What if, in 20 years, when Ottawa is at 2 million, 2 or 3 of these lines actually make sense? God forbid someone will have had the intelligence to have a pipe dream.