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  #341  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2016, 2:44 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
How does encouraging people to live in Smiths Falls or Alexandria instead of Orleans or Kanata devour fewer resources? At the very least it encourages commuters to travel 2-3x farther.
If they are encouraged to live there because of public transit, then they will be using less resources than a person in actual, car-dependent Ottawa suburbs who drives to work.
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  #342  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2016, 2:45 PM
Jeremy Coe, C.E.T. Jeremy Coe, C.E.T. is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
I'd rather have the exurban communities turned into "giant suburbs" built around commuter rail stations, than keep on building more resource-devouring Barr Havens, Kanatas, and Orleanses.
That would require insight, forethought and planning....
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  #343  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2016, 2:55 PM
Radster Radster is offline
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Originally Posted by Horus View Post
Just for fun - populations of these centres (mostly from 2011 census data)
MOOSE routes
  • Wakefield, QC: 2,000 residents (La Peche municipality 7,619)
  • Arnprior, ON: 10,500
  • Montebello, QC: 978 (Papineau MRC 22,541)
  • Bristol, QC: 1,128 (Pontiac MRC 14,358)
  • Smiths Falls, ON: 8,978
  • Alexandria, ON: 10,251

GO to/from Toronto:
  • Richmond Hill: 185,540
  • Lincolnville: 37.628 (whitchurch-stouffville)
  • Milton: 84,362
  • Oshawa: 161,487 (+Whitby 122,022 + Pickering 88,721 + Ajax 109,600)
  • Hamilton: 519,950 (+ Burlington 175,780)
  • Allandale Waterfront: 128,430
  • Kitchener: 219,153 (+Waterloo 98,780)

I honestly do not see how MOOSE can have any level of justifiable ridership numbers. Only 2 of those places listed (Wakefield, Montebello) have any tourism appeal as well.

Agreed. Also, lets not forget that there is new public transit on the Quebec side, Transcollinnes http://transcollines.ca/ , which serves La Peche (Wakefield), Chelsea, Cantley, Angers, etc, so MOOSE would be competing with it, yet another reason why it doesn't make sense for it to serve the Quebec side.
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  #344  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2016, 7:46 PM
Radster Radster is offline
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Was this posted on here yet?

http://www.ottawalife.com/2016/09/making-tracks/

Making Tracks

September 14, 2016 12:02 pm


There’s a Moose on the Loose and It’s Making Commercial Rail a Reality in the Capital.

There’s been quite a buzz around the Prince of Wales Bridge lately. The City of Ottawa bought the bridge that cuts across the Ottawa River in 2005. It has been sitting unused ever since, except by “trespassers”.

It appears few people are aware of its true purpose; it is the only existing rail connection between Ontario and Québec in the National Capital Region. Its construction was authorized by the Parliament of Canada in 1867, and was completed by the Government of Quebec 126 years ago.

A group of entrepreneurs led by Joseph Potvin, an experienced economist and local businessman, is planning to bring the bridge back to its former glory as the centrepiece in a 400 km passenger railway for the greater National Capital Region.

Moose Consortium Inc. (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) plans to use existing railways for a property-financed service to connect about 50 localities throughout the region. They extend out to Arnprior, Smith Falls and Alexandria in Ontario, as well as Bristol, La Pêche and Montebello in Québec.

Moose Consortium is made up of a dozen, mostly local, businesses that came together to make Potvin’s dream a reality: commercial, affordable and green. They are linked with Canada’s largest insurance broker, Aon Reed Stenhouse.

REMISZ Consulting Engineers Inc., a Moose Consortium member company, developed a $50 million plan to restore the Prince of Wales Bridge to working condition. They would also install segregated cycling and pedestrian pathways along each side. Under the city’s direction, there are no current plans for these train tracks to be used, leaving this most valuable stretch of rail in the region untapped.

“It would cost in the range of $100 million and many years to build such a bridge today”, said Wojciech Remisz, Director of Engineering.

Added to this, Moose plans to build walking and biking trails along most of the 400 km of railway, as well as to accommodate bicycles inside the trains.

Mark Thompson Brandt of MTBA Associates Inc. is a nationally recognized conservation architect and urbanist, and another of Moose Consortium’s five directors.

“This project will stoke at the heart of cultural heritage of the region,” says Brandt. “Canada grew up on trains. We want to re-envision the bridge and show people that it’s got deep value, in both connectivity to the past and what it’ll mean for our future.”

The initiative is also expected to significantly cut down on local traffic and carbon emissions. According to Moose, the train service would result in 25,000 fewer cars in the downtown area each day, cutting the region’s carbon emissions by 20,000 tonnes a year.

Brandt has designed a rapid yet sustainable way to get the entire 400 km railway system up and running by deploying trendy modular stations adapted from large railway shipping containers.

“These start-up stations will be simple and customizable. We want them to fit with the feeling of each location and to be appropriate to its setting,” said Brandt.

Moose’s business model is unorthodox. Its most innovative aspect is that each station would be an independent enterprise. With a few exceptions, train services will only be offered where the average rent and property values within a 0.8 km radius of each station are expected to increase by at least 25 percent over the base value. The property owners in each “Linked Locality” keep part of the value added, and under contract they would pay a standard proportion of that value to get train service — a “train stopping fee”. They’d pay that because the additional profit over base value which they keep is due to the train service. This means the entire railway system won’t depend upon taxes, government funding or even on passenger fares to function.

In economic terms, this is called land value capture. A 2007 review of more than a hundred studies in the Journal of Real Estate Finance and Economics by Dr. Ghebre Debrezion, an external advisor to Moose, quantified the effects of metropolitan railway stations on commercial and residential properties within an easy walk. And a 2016 review from the Victoria Transport Policy Institute concluded, “that proximity to transit often increases property values enough to offset some or all of transit system capital costs.”

But Moose, by creating a competitive market for independent stations, would be the first commercial venture to extend the land value capture model all the way.

Their plan is so radical that the Consortium plans to implement a “pay what you want” system for passengers. You’ll have the choice whether or not to pay for the ride. But all money paid by customers would go into what Potvin calls a “passenger experience fund”. All trains will have on-board washrooms and refreshments. Larger stations could have subsidized daycare and walk-in health clinics.

“Not a cent from passengers will go towards running the primary train service.” Potvin said. Passengers’ money will go towards making the service even more attractive, to generate market demand for properties near stations. “That’s where the real money is,” he reasons.

The trains themselves will be three double decker (bi-level) coaches, each with a café on the second level. Every coach will have a different atmosphere for passengers: a quiet coach, a place to be social, and even a coach with scheduled live musicians.

While Potvin deals with the economics of the project at Moose, Bill Pomfret is the company’s guide on all aspects of safety. Pomfret has been working globally in health and safety for the last 50 years. The international safety system he’s developed has been implemented in companies like Exxon and the Hong Kong private sector railway, MTR. Now he’s dedicated his passion and expertise for safety to Moose Consortium.

“You never get a second chance to get it right the first time. Safety cannot be an afterthought,” said Pomfret, adding that almost all accidents are completely and easily preventable. Even though Moose trains are not operational yet, Pomfret says the team has made safety part of every weekly meeting. He has 15 training courses already set up, and a culture of safety of Moose is built right into the core business design.

For Smiths Falls Ontario Mayor Shawn Pankow, Moose would be a solution to several problems.

“We currently have hundreds of residents who commute to and from Ottawa for work, either driving themselves or car pooling. Commuter rail would provide a far more green solution that would get these people to and from work in a safer, potentially quicker manner,” says Pankow. He also said it would help grow the community.

But not all small communities want growth.

Caryl Green is the Mayor of Chelsea, Quebec and president of Transcollines transit, the publicly-funded bus system in the Outaouais region. She worries that Moose’s commercial railway will conflict with their current transportation system, and will increase Chelsea’s low density population, something the citizens of the region have expressly voted against.

“We really do support public transportation, but we were given a choice between rail and bus, and we chose bus,” says Green.

Potvin responds that buses and trains are entirely complimentary.

“Our common problem is overdependence on cars”, he said. “Once Moose rail is operational, bus services such as Transcollines will be able to provide even better service for passengers to more neighbourhoods.”

As for maintaining low density in Chelsea, Potvin says that Moose wouldn’t interfere, and that will remain entirely in the hands of the town council and staff.

“Because our revenue comes from within the short 0.8 km radius around each station, that’s the only density that matters for our service to work,” said Potvin. “The rest can be farms or forest.”

Still, clearly some people are reticent.

“We have some great fans and some people just don’t want to talk about it,” says Potvin. But neither he nor the Moose directors seem discouraged by their obstacles.

“Doesn’t the pro golfer always try for a hole-in-one, even if it’s improbable?” asked Potvin with a smile.
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  #345  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Radster View Post
“Doesn’t the pro golfer always try for a hole-in-one, even if it’s improbable?” asked Potvin with a smile.
That sums it up for me. This is like going for a hole in one.

Is it impossible? No.

Is it likely to happen? No.
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  #346  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2017, 2:53 PM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
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That sums it up for me. This is like going for a hole in one.

Is it impossible? No.

Is it likely to happen? No.
Entrepreneurs don't sit around and wait for "likely" to happen around them.

TORONTO, CANADA. 1 JULY 2017 — LeMine Investment Group and Consortia N.A. Ltd. (LeMine-Consortia N.A.) and MOOSE Consortium Inc. exchanged letters of intent today, the 1st of July 2017, on Canada's 150th Anniversary, to create a fully private-sector 400 km metropolitan-scale passenger rail service for Canada's Greater National Capital Region.

The full announcement is here:
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-conten...7-01aPDF-1.pdf
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  #347  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2017, 3:07 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Consortia NA was incorporated in 2016.
LeMine is a North York real estate developer.

Neither seems to be in the railway business.
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  #348  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2017, 4:03 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Consortia NA was incorporated in 2016.
LeMine is a North York real estate developer.

Neither seems to be in the railway business.
I am curious if either have actually looked at the status of the tracks that MOOSE want to use? Many are washed out, torn up or overgrown. Most of the ones that are in good condition are in heavy use already. The only tracks that are readily available are the Renfrew subdivision east of Arnprior and the Beachburg Subdivision between the junctions with the Smiths Falls subdivision and the Renfrew subdivision.
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  #349  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2017, 4:12 PM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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Here is Mr. Ali's resume, he seems to have a lot of experience in PPPs and infrastructure development.
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/mir-m-ali...mcsce-0ba26a5b
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  #350  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2017, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
Here is Mr. Ali's resume, he seems to have a lot of experience in PPPs and infrastructure development.
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/mir-m-ali...mcsce-0ba26a5b
But this isn't a PPP. It is purely a private venture.
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  #351  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2017, 10:33 PM
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J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
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MOOSE is as likely as Metrolinx creating a GO Transit system in Ottawa. Zero.
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  #352  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2017, 2:07 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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MOOSE is as likely as Metrolinx creating a GO Transit system in Ottawa. Zero.
It's certainly unclear how it all is supposed to tie together.
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  #353  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2017, 3:08 AM
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MOOSE is as likely as Metrolinx creating a GO Transit system in Ottawa. Zero.
I'm just surprised they haven't announced plans to reopen Union Station to have trains go downtown. It is about as likely as everything else they are planning.
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  #354  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2017, 5:55 PM
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Jamaican-Phoenix Jamaican-Phoenix is offline
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Commuter rail makes sense in Ottawa.

Between the suburbs that is.

The unfortunate reality is that we're trying to do two very different things with one transit system, and it's gonna hurt us in the future. The majority of OC Transpo is commuter-based. Get the people from the three main suburbs into and out of downtown. The people within the Greenbelt need greater frequency, reliability, and availability of routes.
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  #355  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2017, 8:11 PM
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1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
Commuter rail makes sense in Ottawa.

Between the suburbs that is.

The unfortunate reality is that we're trying to do two very different things with one transit system, and it's gonna hurt us in the future. The majority of OC Transpo is commuter-based. Get the people from the three main suburbs into and out of downtown. The people within the Greenbelt need greater frequency, reliability, and availability of routes.
I think that of the people who work the traditional Monday-Friday 40 hour work week, the % who take transit to work is decently high considering the city's nature. Among downtown peak-period commuters it's a majority taking transit, even other employment nodes outside the core (Tunney's, CSEC/CSE on Ogilvie, Confederation Heights, etc.) the % is alright. Really the only thing the city needs to do in this department is to encourage employment growth in places where transit is competitive; ie. start directing more investment downtown and along RT lines instead of constantly approving new office parks in the suburbs.

Really the focus on future transit investment in Ottawa needs to be on expanding ridership among non-commuters/non-traditional commuters. And that requires, as you said, frequency/reliability/availability of services throughout the city at all times of the day. The LRT is a step in that direction as it will offer a considerable improvement in off-peak frequencies over the former buses, helped by the addition of stations (Cleary, New Orchard, etc.) that increase its serviceable area over what the old Transitway had.

If we could get the "Frequent route network" to have 10 minute frequency that would really help.
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  #356  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2017, 9:06 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post

Really the focus on future transit investment in Ottawa needs to be on expanding ridership among non-commuters/non-traditional commuters. And that requires, as you said, frequency/reliability/availability of services throughout the city at all times of the day.
It's never really been clear to me why this should be a goal. The city's road infrastructure is not over-burdened off-peak, a bus needs to be reasonably full before it is less polluting than a car, and OC Transpo loses money on every passenger, so attracting more off-peak doesn't really offer a lot of advantages.
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  #357  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2017, 1:04 AM
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Anyway, the city core is full. If you want people to live in the city limits parts of the greenbelt would need to be eliminated.
Ridiculously Ottawa thing to say. The city, inside the Greenbelt, is not dense at all. It's got suburban levels of density compared to other big cities in this country and definitely internationally.

It's bad enough that LRT has now left the Greenbelt, enabling sprawl that will seriously damage the city's finances in a few decades. We are supposed to add MOOSE and make it worse?

The City of Ottawa should wash their hands of this. If if it happens, not a penny of city funds should be allocated. And if it goes under, force the exurbs that MOOSE supports to pay for it.
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  #358  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2017, 1:11 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Although this may be an unpopular opinion on this forum but I think that spreading people out more into rural areas is a good thing. Far too many rural towns are shrinking and dying away due to the shift in the economy, rural rail can be a solution. We don't want Canada to end up being a dozen large cities with an uninhabited wasteland everywhere else.
Actually, I would love that. Urban areas offer a higher quality of life with substantially better access to health care, education and cultural attractions, and more efficient across the spectrum, from land use to energy. In a world where we have to care about energy use and emissions, it's ridiculous to suggest subsidizing towns 100 km away for the express reason of charm.

If somebody chooses to live that way, let them shoulder the cost. Taxpayer dollars should be deployed as efficiently as possible so that tax burdens can be kept as low as possible.
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  #359  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2017, 1:36 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Consortia NA was incorporated in 2016.
LeMine is a North York real estate developer.

Neither seems to be in the railway business.
Consortia is MOOSE I believe.

And Joseph Potvin is the Director of MOOSE.
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  #360  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2017, 6:44 PM
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More MOOSE things from the Globe and Mail this time and how China wants to be involved???

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...1-3e2f34fea2c5

A Toronto-based condo developer that specializes in attracting Chinese capital for Canadian real estate is investing in a controversial proposal for a privately run commuter rail network throughout the National Capital Region.

Toronto’s LeMine Investment Group – which has developed condos in Toronto and Ajax – has agreed to spend $5-million on a 120-day study of the merits of a proposed 400-kilometre regional rail network that would connect several small communities outside Ottawa and Gatineau to the downtown core.

In an interview, LeMine chief executive officer Thomas Liu said what impressed him about the project is that it would provide supporting infrastructure that would benefit the public and be financed through the rising property values that would result from putting trains stations in outlying communities.
“It’s a perfect combination,” he said. “That’s what’s amazing about this project.”

Mr. Liu has described his company as having a mandate to be the international investment platform for Chinese capital. Moose Consortium Inc. – the group behind the rail plan – expects major international capital will follow if the study goes well.
Mr. Liu’s name came up on the floor of the House of Commons in November, when the NDP raised his attendance at a small $1,500 Liberal Party fundraiser in Toronto to meet with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. The questions were in the context of the cash-for-access controversy that led the Liberals to introduce reforms for campaign fundraising. Mr. Liu declined to discuss the fundraiser in an interview last week.

Mr. Trudeau and his government are actively encouraging large-scale foreign investment in Canadian infrastructure.

Moose has been promoting its regional commuter rail idea for several years without any clear sign of traction until now. The first partner companies invested about $500,000 before the deal with LeMine Investment Group. The new partnership also involves a company called Consortia NA, which facilitates private infrastructure projects.

Joseph Potvin, the director-general of Moose, says that if the study is positive, LeMine would at least double that amount for further analysis. Ultimately, the project envisions a $500-million private investment to establish the network, which would use refurbished existing rail lines.

The Moose team says other international investors are prepared to support the project if the initial study is positive. The study is being conducted by Opus International Consultants and Remisz Consulting Engineers Ltd.

The proponents are asking the federal government to endorse the plan, but are not seeking any public money.

The business case is built on capitalizing on the increase in property values that would result from new commuter rail service.

Because the project would cross an interprovincial bridge, Moose says a rarely used section of the Constitution would exempt it from provincial regulation, meaning it would need only federal approval to go ahead.

The plan includes six rail lines that all meet just west of downtown Ottawa at the Prince of Wales Bridge, which opened in 1881 and is not currently in use. On the Ontario side, a western line would run to Arnprior, a southern line would reach Smith Falls and an eastern line would go to Alexandria. On the Quebec side, the plan would serve Bristol to the west, Wakefield to the north and Montebello to the east. All lines would have other stops along the way.

The lines extend much further than the City of Ottawa’s existing plans for a light rail network. The Moose network would primarily serve people who live outside the City of Ottawa.

The project faces many hurdles, including the fact that Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson does not appear to be interested.

“Mayor Watson has not seen or been made aware of a viable proposal from Moose,” said Livia Belcea, the mayor’s spokesperson. Moose appears to have irritated City of Ottawa officials by asking the Canadian Transportation Agency to rule that the city was wrong to remove some track leading up to the Prince of Wales Bridge.

“The [Moose] consortium appears to have no running stock, financing or any of the other indicia of a rail company,” City of Ottawa solicitor Rick O’Connor wrote in a terse e-mail to council members on June 28 in relation to the dispute. The e-mail was sent before Moose secured the LeMine financing.

Mr. Liu, the LeMine CEO, said he would expect the project would begin with two or three stations to demonstrate how the business model would work.

“I see this project as a long-term project,” he said. “I don’t think we are able to develop all of these [communities] within even the next 10 years.”

Liberal MP Greg Fergus, who represents the Quebec riding of Hull-Aylmer across the river from Parliament Hill, said the new investor interest is “exciting” news that changes the way Moose’s proposal should be perceived.

“At a half million dollars, it might not be very credible. At $5-million, it’s all of a sudden a lot more credible,” he said. “And if the market studies that are funded by the private sector come out and say, ‘Yes, this is well worth doing,’ and they’re willing to bankroll several hundred million dollars, then the credibility is already there.”

While some critics of the MOOSE project say it would encourage urban sprawl, Mr. Fergus said it can be good for the environment if people live in densely built suburbs with commuter rail within walking distance.

“It brings so many good things from a health perspective, from an economic perspective,” he said.

Mr. Fergus said behind-the-scenes talks are progressing about linking the City of Ottawa and Gatineau transit systems by rail, likely over the Prince of Wales Bridge, which the city owns, but those discussions have not included talk of Moose’s proposal.

“I think all these projects can live together,” he said. “The wonderful thing about trains is you can schedule them.”

Editor's Note: This story was corrected to show that Mr. Liu declined to comment at a fundraiser last week.
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