HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #461  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2017, 3:41 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
The old New York Central right of way is obliterated by Highway 417 between south of Walkley and west of Anderson.
It isn't that bad actually. An easy connection could be made by running parallel to Ramsayville Rd and connect to the Alexandria Subdivision.

For anyone who is interested, I have been working on a Google My Map of Currant and abandoned rail lines in Eastern Ontario which includes the old NY&O ROW. The link to the map is here.

The focus is on ROWs that could be still be used. It has been extended to show routes to Montreal and I plan to show routes to Toronto. So far I have limited it to south of the river, but routes north of the river could be added at some point. It is still a work in progress though.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #462  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2017, 3:54 PM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
Living With My Mother
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 985
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Nice letter, but I am a little confused. VIA Rail doesn't pass through Kemptville. I doesn't even pass through North Grenville. I suspect the trains that pass through the daughter's backyard are CPR freight trains on the Winchester Subdivision. Given that it is an east/west line that runs south of Ottawa, it likely won't be of much use for Moose.
About five years ago I was picking apples at the Mountain Orchard and was astounded to see a VIA train set travelling east on the Winchester Subdivision.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #463  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2017, 5:43 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
That's context-dependent. In our context, the rail service on existing tracks is entirely complementary with bus services, so it's not really framed by the choice you are describing.
Your paper says BRT is less attractive. So really, you are assessing them against each other and choosing the more expensive option. I think the idea that the rail corridors you are proposing are ready for service is a bit of stretch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Specifically to bring realized "value added" based on market demand.
Obfuscation to say that development is your priority not public transport. I don't think there's anything wrong with admitting that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Bi-levels are explicitly designed for regional rail markets.
The same could be said for DMUs and EMUs. Indeed, Metrolinx is studying EMUs for its coming GO RER service. It would be news to most of the world that only bi-levels are suitable for regional rail. In fact, in my experience traveling bi-levels are only used for commuter/suburban rail service. Very rarely for regional rail service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Paid for how?
If you can subsidize daycare, you can pay for the twin tracks. Are you now suggesting that you'll be demanding capacity from OC Transpo without offering anyway to boost capacity where required?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Yes, we got that cool idea from the Japanese private sector railways.
Given the hundreds of billions required to bailout the Japanese rail sector, I'd avoid comparisons to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Rather, to make mobility throughout the region by rail so attractive that households and business really want to locate within an easy walk of any of the 50 stations. Half of these Linked Localities will be urban.
Speaking of 50 stations, do you have a list of all of them? I counted around 40 on your map.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Section 138 exists due to railway industry insistence. It establishes a reasonably fair market environment.




The PPR (and MOOSE's enagement of it) is based on a diplomatic but strong assertion of a rules-based legal and administrative environment in which all stakeholders are empowered by and constrained by their lawful prerogatives and obligations. When required, the courts are to the PPR what referees are to team sports, which is to say, recourse to legal action is to bring in neutral authority when required, not to exercise hostility.
The concern here isn't about whether you'll get access. I think ultimately OC Transpo would negotiate access, even if grudgingly. The issue is access at the time that is relevant to all: at peak. And if you're now suggesting that Moose won't be putting forward resources for capacity expansion (as stated above), then this going to be quite the pickle to sort out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
In spite of our legal action in relation to both Ottawa and Gatineau, we have respectful and collaborative interactions with elected representatives and professional staff. For example, MOOSE was invited to give the keynote address at the all-candidates debate in Kanata during the last municipal election, and at that event, Marianne Wilkinson mentioned our plan very favourably more than three times.
I don't doubt you have the odd politician or bureaucrat on your side. What I've said is that there's no evidence your plan is being considered with what's transpiring for Stage 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Ottawa's transit professionals are not taking that view, nor would that be consistent with their mandate, or with Section 138.
So you think Section 138 mandates sharing even when there's no additional capacity to share? Is your interpretation that OC Transpo is legally mandated to cut its own capacity to offload to another under Section 138?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
No assumptions are needed. It's well documented.
Indeed. That's why we have more questions for you than answers from you at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
However, to go further with the hockey game metaphor, yes there's 'confllct'. But punching is hostile, whereas calling in the referee is just rules-based engagement. These are in no way equivalent.
I see it as you hoping that the ref will acede to your demand that the other side accept to play a man short for the entire game since you didn't bring enough replacements.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #464  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2017, 5:46 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Someone just commented on this post during a meeting.

Funny enough, as far as we're concerned, all those factors (plus the mess of jurisdictional boundaries and rivalries) make it an excellent place to do a PPR proof-of-concept, for the same deep reasons that significant biological adaptations seem to emerge from places like caustic hot sea vents. If it can be made to work here, it'll probably work anywhere.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

Oh come on. Do you think people on this forum are unintelligent? We see through this. Ottawa's the only place where you can line up developers and sell politicians on a rail plan to facilitate developers. It nearly came to fruition once before. In other metros, they'd smell this coming a mile away. Ottawa residents are gullible like that. Good on your for capitalizing on that though.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #465  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2017, 6:31 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Skyscrapers, could we perhaps talk about the significance and the best ways to achieve whole-region mobility other than by car? MOOSE is designing and working to put in place an option, but it's not the only way. For those of you who prefer not to see easier whole-region mobility by means other than car, can you help others to understand your rationale?
OK. Here are my thoughts. While it is great to have a plan as to what you would like to see, it is also important to take bite sized pieces. A good first start would be, as zzptichka suggested in post #408, a "line running from Smith Falls to Alexandria with connections to BRT at Fallowfield, O-Train at Confederation stn and Confederation line at Tremblay using only VIA tracks." I know routes need to be inter-provincial to allow you to be eligible for Section 138, but if the track owner is co-operative, that legislative authority is not necessary.

With the right deal, I can see VIA being very co-operative. What they need most is money. As long as appropriate upgrades are made to the track to ensure Moose doesn't interfere with VIA's operations, having Moose pay to run on their tracks and use their stations is a free, alternate revenue stream for VIA Rail.

I see Phase II as being a route from Arnprior, as the track is there but barely used (I believe there are on 2 round trip trains a week).

Once one train route is running, it will be easier to you can work on some of the more challenging routes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #466  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2017, 6:42 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,484
@roger1818

That really doesn't help Joseph's developer/investors.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #467  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2017, 7:30 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
@roger1818

That really doesn't help Joseph's developer/investors.
I will let Joseph be the judge of that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #468  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2017, 9:39 PM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Canada's National Capital Region
Posts: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
That really doesn't help Joseph's developer/investors.
Correct. For there to be any significant value added around stations, all empirical studies show that the market needs two assurances: (a) that the station will stay put, and (b) that from any station, you'll get metropolitan-scale mobility. One test-it-out line won't do that.

This requires a real 'commit' at full scale by investors, along with continued diplomacy+audacity to ensure that the federal authorities promptly live up to their statutory responsibilities.

Note that our explicit escalation sequence with the Canadian Transportation Agency relating to the approach track to the Prince of Wales Bridge at Bayview described our next step as filing in Federal Court for a Writ of Mandamus. (described in the media here). Yes, I realize that some consider this to be pushy, but the alternative was to just give up. MOOSE was created on the basis of a real 'commit' by its founding investors to get the ball rolling.

The old aphorism "go big, or go home" applies here. Scale matters.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

Last edited by Joseph Potvin; Jul 25, 2017 at 10:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #469  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 12:48 AM
Horus's Avatar
Horus Horus is offline
I ask because I Gatineau
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Aylmer (by way of GTA)
Posts: 1,164
Hi Joseph,

I have some questions about the operational model of MOOSE. The financing model is explained in great detail in your literature, but I'm struggling to understand the operational model.

MOOSE gets payment in the form of "Stopping Fees" from each station (let's call them Station Partners). In return, MOOSE provides the means by which rail service can be provided.

My questions are then about what the role of the Station Partner is, and how they benefit from the arrangement in terms of service.
  1. How is the train service schedule determined? What about the frequency of service?
  2. How are fares established? Does MOOSE set the fares, or the Station Partners?
  3. Do Station Partners have the ability to create revenue tools (Paid parking, in-station amenities) and if so, are the revenue tools subject to any approval by MOOSE?
  4. Do existing Station Partners have rights with respect to the addition of new Station Partners on their lines?

I posted this list about a year ago in this thread:

Quote:
Populations of these [anchor] centres (mostly from 2011 census data) along
MOOSE routes
Wakefield, QC: 2,000 residents (La Peche municipality 7,619)
Arnprior, ON: 10,500
Montebello, QC: 978 (Papineau MRC 22,541)
Bristol, QC: 1,128 (Pontiac MRC 14,358)
Smiths Falls, ON: 8,978
Alexandria, ON: 10,251
What ridership level is expected from such small population centres? Are fares expected to offset operational costs?

I have more questions, but I'll leave this post at this.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #470  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 1:15 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 15,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus View Post


What ridership level is expected from such small population centres? Are fares expected to offset operational costs?
Wouldn't the developer be building new subdivisions?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #471  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 11:06 AM
Kitchissippi's Avatar
Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
Busy Beaver
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Wouldn't the developer be building new subdivisions?
Wouldn't that be an admission that this scheme is just an agent of sprawl?

Also, the more these satellite communities grow, the more the ridership becomes susceptible to being poached by private bus companies and app-based services like UberPool.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #472  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 1:05 PM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Canada's National Capital Region
Posts: 210
Horus, Good questions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus View Post
MOOSE gets payment in the form of "Stopping Fees" from each station (let's call them Station Partners). In return, MOOSE provides the means by which rail service can be provided.
Terminology here is important, because "partner" has a specific meaning in law. They are "units". Here's the relevant excerpt from the PPR white paper:
When a private- or public- sector property manager undertakes to transform a locality into a PPR “Linked Locality”, they may choose to structure their business relationships on a for-profit or not-for-profit basis upon any model they prefer in order to raise the funds required to cover the “train stopping fee”, the costs of developing and operating the station, various taxes, and a reserve fund. However the logical structure which most directly aligns with the PPR business dynamic is the "common elements freehold condominium". The seminal work describing adaptation of a condominium legal framework to commercial and industrial contexts was the 1974 paper by Charles A. Goldstein et.al. entitled “Commercial and Industrial Condominiums: An Overall Analysis”. This was recently republished. (Goldstein, Lipson, Rohan, & Shapiro, 2012) Whereas the term "condominium" is associated in most public discourse with urban residential high-rises, in fact it has also come to be a common ownership arrangement in industrial, commercial and multi-use contexts such as office buildings, industrial parks, shopping centres, and combination buildings that have offices or retail units on the lower floors, and residential units above. In rural areas, the condominium legal model is occasionally adapted for use amongst otherwise independent producers for the management of common irrigation, pastureland and animal shelters. This framework provides a useful default reference template for investors and developers, and it provides a practical set of assumptions for system modelling. However the legal structure of an industrial condominium brings with it a set of assumptions in law that do not fit the context of a train station, but the main features can be created in a joint use and maintenance agreement (JUMA), entirely under contract law. ...Amongst any and all station enterprises, the PPR formula for the train stopping fee remains the same generally-negotiated proportion of the marginal increase in real property income and asset value within a short walk of the station, approximating a 0.8 km radius. Increased rent/lease values provide a predictable monthly revenue stream linked to demand. And, increased asset values are realized as a percentage upon each sale, which has a predictable turnover rate in most markets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus View Post
How is the train service schedule determined? What about the frequency of service?
That will be modelled in collaboration with Railterm, which handles dispatch for both VIA and OC-Transpo.

Also, we'll use MATsim, with a new module we'll add for property value optimization. That will help us target the optimal frequency.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus View Post
How are fares established? Does MOOSE set the fares, or the Station Partners?
Also, from the white paper:
In principle, passenger fares in PPR business strategy would be calibrated to whatever level optimizes sustained marginal increases in real property income and realized asset values for participating owners of property around stations. The incentive structure is drawn towards maximizing property demand and market price by minimizing fares and optimizing passenger experience. ... It is useful to consider how systems planners should respond if the an incentive based on driving up demand for property near stations indicates that the optimal passenger fare should be so low that it approaches the cost of collection and enforcement operations. Once these two factors approach each other, one may logically shift to a free or “pay what you want” relationship with passengers (Kim, Natter, & Spann, 2009) (Schons et al., 2014) (Schmidt, Spann, & Zeithammer, 2014) (Gomez & Krishnamurthy, n.d.). Moreover, it must be asked whether any foregone fare revenue would be more than offset by aggregate property revenues increases due to the overall market attractiveness of pay-what-you-want mobility. The perception goal for propertied interests near stations is to have passenger fares so low that drivers feel silly driving and parking a cars to get around a metropolitan region. Such a radical approach would not only get routine drivers out of their cars, but the business model itself may turn heads and gain a following. Property income and asset value near stations is optimized when “my next car's a train” becomes a popular refrain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus View Post
Do Station Partners have the ability to create revenue tools (Paid parking, in-station amenities) and if so, are the revenue tools subject to any approval by MOOSE?
Yes they can, and yes, some constraints will apply, as is normal in any industrial/commercial condominium agreement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus View Post
Do existing Station Partners have rights with respect to the addition of new Station Partners on their lines?
Yes. Once the whole thing is modelled, there will be an optimal number of stations. Too many stations will slow down the service. Just enough stations will give the "catchment area" maximum utility. New stations will be assessed by their proponents on their own merits, and by the incumbent stations in terms of their aggregate system-level effects. They have different but complementary perspectives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus View Post
What ridership level is expected from such small population centres? Are fares expected to offset operational costs?
The PPR income stream does not depend on public sector subsidies or on passenger fares. Suppose, hypothetically that the NCC held a parcel of semi-wilderness land with no residential or commercial tenants, and they wanted a MOOSE station to support public access. Under the PPR model they would get an independent land evaluation as if they were preparing to sell it (which they are not doing, but they could). Their subscription fee for train service would be based on the new independent land evaluation once the station is operating. For "greenfield" wilderness, you might think, the increment is not so great. Maybe not. But taking a system-level view, what all the other stations now obtain is a new NCC station with direct easy access to that semi-wilderness location. Run the independently peer-reviewed statistical model to get the distributed value effects, and that's the financial benefit to consider. So the fee that the NCC would pay based on their own increment might be quite affordable for them, and yet may be just a tiny fraction of the aggregate value increment realized for the system as a whole.

The point of this being, that while population density is one of the factors in play, it's not the only factor, and in some station contexts, such as the hypothetical example above, it's precisely the lack of any population at that station which is the source of its value.


Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

Last edited by Joseph Potvin; Jul 26, 2017 at 1:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #473  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 1:49 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 15,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
Wouldn't that be an admission that this scheme is just an agent of sprawl?

Also, the more these satellite communities grow, the more the ridership becomes susceptible to being poached by private bus companies and app-based services like UberPool.
I thought that was pretty clear from the beginning.

It looks like the homeowners would have an ongoing financial commitment.

I still don't see who the target market is. People who move to rural areas are usually looking for cheap housing and/or lower density communities. If someone wants to live in a suburb and take a train to work that can move to Orleans and not face an ongoing financial commitment.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #474  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 3:47 PM
FutureWickedCity's Avatar
FutureWickedCity FutureWickedCity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 296
I'm glad that Mr Potvin is challenging the naysayers of this project. We should all be supporting this project which would be so beneficial to Ottawa-Gatineau. No doubt there will be significant hurdles to cross, but I doubt that any city has ever regretted building an extensive rail commuter network. And we taxpayers have little to lose if this is really a 100% private enterprise.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #475  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 4:14 PM
FFX-ME's Avatar
FFX-ME FFX-ME is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
I'm glad that Mr Potvin is challenging the naysayers of this project. We should all be supporting this project which would be so beneficial to Ottawa-Gatineau. No doubt there will be significant hurdles to cross, but I doubt that any city has ever regretted building an extensive rail commuter network. And we taxpayers have little to lose if this is really a 100% private enterprise.
Exactly! People's main objection seems to be the cost which is stupid; they aren't paying for it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #476  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 4:37 PM
Kitchissippi's Avatar
Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
Busy Beaver
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
I'm glad that Mr Potvin is challenging the naysayers of this project. We should all be supporting this project which would be so beneficial to Ottawa-Gatineau. No doubt there will be significant hurdles to cross, but I doubt that any city has ever regretted building an extensive rail commuter network. And we taxpayers have little to lose if this is really a 100% private enterprise.
Who are you kidding. What they're proposing is in fact a tax in the form of a "monthly fee":
Quote:
Trains will service each participating locality in exchange for a monthly fee based upon a simple formula that makes use of independent empirical data on the property market effects of that railway access. This “train stopping fee” is calculated as a proportion of the measured increase in realized property revenues (marginal increase in leases, rents) and capital gains (marginal increase in sales closed in the period).
Smells like a tax, walks like a tax. What the consortium is asking for is the power of taxation. Sign on to the agreement and you are indentured to the provision of rail service whether it is profitable or not. It's great in the rosy scenario of exponential growth but if the service loses money, it just gets passed on to everyone in the network.

It's basically applying condominium principle to transit. We all know what happens when the condo needs a new roof or windows and good luck trying to take your apartment out of the condominium agreement if you don't like how it's run.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #477  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 6:50 PM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Canada's National Capital Region
Posts: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
Who are you kidding. What they're proposing is in fact a tax in the form of a "monthly fee" ... Smells like a tax, walks like a tax. What the consortium is asking for is the power of taxation.
If you don't pay your property taxes, you're breaking the law. Paying is not an option.

If your neighbourhood bought a subscription to MOOSE train service, but now you choose to opt out of the Linked Locality fee, go right ahead. In the formula, those who continue to opt in will still need to cover your part of the fee, which they will do because it's still financially a net gain for them to do so. (Just don't expect your neighbours to go out of their way to boost your car when your alternator's on the fritz, or whatever) If more and more in your neighbourhood opt out, then eventually covering the cost of the fee becomes untenable for those who stay in. At some point, that station will no longer be funded and will end its subscription. Property values in that locality now shift back to the base value without train service. Also, everybody in that locality now will spend more on cars. Meanwhile, all other stations on that line will get a faster ride, since there's one less stop slowing them down.

Yes, Hardin's Tragedy of the Commons will be tragic, I suppose, for those localities that can't manage to get or stay organized to pay the formula-based "train-stopping fee". Our bet is that there will indeed be about 50 localities that do get organized. And once they do, the very tangible advantages to keeping a good thing going will generate considerable peer pressure. Is this peer pressure in the public interest? Or is this peer pressure contrary to the public interest? There will be legitimate differences of view about that. Probably some localities will arrive at unique very respectful ways to mediate any tensions that arise. The condo model is not trouble-free, certainly, but the reason they are so common is because, by and large, they work.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #478  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 7:17 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 152
In case it's of interest in this forum, here's a map I did to compare the Moose Plan and the City's Stage 2 plan. I'm not from Ottawa so I created this to help me visualize what's being discussed. I posted it in Urban Toronto where this is also being discussed. Sorry for the size of the picture. Not sure how to scale it down.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #479  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 7:59 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
I'm glad that Mr Potvin is challenging the naysayers of this project. We should all be supporting this project which would be so beneficial to Ottawa-Gatineau. No doubt there will be significant hurdles to cross, but I doubt that any city has ever regretted building an extensive rail commuter network. And we taxpayers have little to lose if this is really a 100% private enterprise.
I am skeptical of projects which:

1) Might end up costing the taxpayer significantly. For example, if the endeavour fails and government has to bail them out.

2) Promotes sprawl when Ottawa has substantial places to develop inside the greenbelt and not much of the affordability issues you see in the GTA. Whereas you see people driving 2 hrs to afford a home, you don't have that in Ottawa.

I will concede though, there is benefit from a regional perspective of tying the region together. Not sure if Moose and their business plan is the right way to do it, yet.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #480  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 8:13 PM
Kitchissippi's Avatar
Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
Busy Beaver
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Yes, Hardin's Tragedy of the Commons will be tragic, I suppose, for those localities that can't manage to get or stay organized to pay the formula-based "train-stopping fee". Our bet is that there will indeed be about 50 localities that do get organized. And once they do, the very tangible advantages to keeping a good thing going will generate considerable peer pressure. Is this peer pressure in the public interest? Or is this peer pressure contrary to the public interest? There will be legitimate differences of view about that. Probably some localities will arrive at unique very respectful ways to mediate any tensions that arise. The condo model is not trouble-free, certainly, but the reason they are so common is because, by and large, they work.
So in your fantasy scenario, in order for a stop to happen at Merivale the residents and businesses (Costco, Canada Computers, the mini putt, Dow Honda, etc.) have to get together, form a corporation, build and maintain a station at their expense, and then pass the hat amongst each other every month for the stopping fee. You want this scenario repeated 50 or so times in different permutations along the line for every station. If the city owns a stop (Greenboro, Carleton, Bayview or Tremblay) you also want a stopping fee even though connection to the O-Train system is to your advantage.

On top of this, MOOSE only wants to own trainsets, and will expect tracks to be properly maintained by their respective owners (whether or not they have actual use for said tracks) and charge fair passage fees because it says so in the Transportation Act.

I wish you the best of luck, methinks getting Quebec signed into the Constitution will be simpler.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:00 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.