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  #481  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 8:25 PM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
in order for a stop to happen at Merivale the residents and businesses (Costco, Canada Computers, the mini putt, Dow Honda, etc.) have to get together, form a corporation, build and maintain a station at their expense, and then pass the hat amongst each other every month for the stopping fee
Two ways to herd cats:

1. Mr. Kitchissippi's way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8

2. Mr. Moose's way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeZ9g4TXylk

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
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  #482  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 8:26 PM
DarthVader_1961 DarthVader_1961 is offline
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Does any of this rural commuter rail cover places lime Winchester?
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  #483  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 8:50 PM
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Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
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Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Two ways to herd cats:

1. Mr. Kitchissippi's way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8

2. Mr. Moose's way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeZ9g4TXylk
And which scenario ended in chaos?
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  #484  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 9:12 PM
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FFX-ME FFX-ME is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I am skeptical of projects which:

1) Might end up costing the taxpayer significantly. For example, if the endeavour fails and government has to bail them out.

2) Promotes sprawl when Ottawa has substantial places to develop inside the greenbelt and not much of the affordability issues you see in the GTA. Whereas you see people driving 2 hrs to afford a home, you don't have that in Ottawa.

I will concede though, there is benefit from a regional perspective of tying the region together. Not sure if Moose and their business plan is the right way to do it, yet.
The inner greenbelt was intended for 500,000 people. Ottawa has well overgrown it which is why places like Kanata and Orléans exist. Go in google earth, type Ottawa greenbelt and it will show you an outline of its borders. The inner city is practically 100% occupied except for the experimental farm.
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  #485  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 9:23 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by FFX-ME View Post
The inner greenbelt was intended for 500,000 people. Ottawa has well overgrown it which is why places like Kanata and Orléans exist. Go in google earth, type Ottawa greenbelt and it will show you an outline of its borders. The inner city is practically 100% occupied except for the experimental farm.
1) Where does this 500 000 cap come from? Source please.

2) Kanata and Orleans still have plenty of room to grow. So why the need for regional rail to Smiths Falls and Wakefield?

3) Occupied doesn't say much. The City of Toronto is 100% occupied too. Look how many more residents it is adding through densification. Ottawa (inside the greenbelt) is not even as dense as some of Toronto's suburbs.

4) Given the massive costs to the taxpayer, particularly the municipal taxpayer, why should sprawl be encouraged? If we don't make the right choices now, a world of hurt awaits a few decades away as infrastructure ages. Read this on Hamilton to know what lies ahead:

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/5...fordable-city/

Some more reading material detailing the costs of sprawl:

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2013/...t-sprawl/5664/
http://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/0...t-development/
https://www.curbed.com/2015/3/9/9983...tructure-costs

"....the gaping differences between annual costs per household found in a study by the Halifax Regional Municipality in Nova Scotia. In total, the difference in annual city costs between suburban and urban homes in the region is $2,046 CAD, or $1,623 in U.S. dollars.

The Halifax Regional Municipality found the cost of building infrastructure and providing services was proportionate to how far apart homes were located. Researchers calculated costs per capita, and looked at how travel distances correlated with costs of services like fire-fighting, which is twice as expensive in suburban neighborhoods. Obvious differences include services affected by distance-related factors like transportation, roads, sidewalks, and school busses. Less obvious differences? Libraries. Even the cost of libraries is almost double in suburban areas."

If we're going to tolerate sprawl, I want zoned fares for transit (goes for MOOSE too) and congestion charges for central Ottawa to make up for the costs the are passing on to the taxpayer.

Last edited by Truenorth00; Jul 26, 2017 at 9:33 PM.
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  #486  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 9:54 PM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Read this on Hamilton to know what lies ahead:
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/5...fordable-city/
Excellent article. I encourage all on this thread to read it.

Two questions. (Does this blog platform have a questinnaire module?)

Following is the list of ways to finance significant rail transit developments without municipal or provincial money (which they don't have anyways), and without federal money (which they can conjure up, aka, defer to our kids). Add additional methods to the list.
1. Property-Powered Rail (unproven)
2. ... um ... (help me out)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
If we're going to tolerate sprawl, I want zoned fares for transit (goes for MOOSE too) and congestion charges for central Ottawa to make up for the costs the are passing on to the taxpayer.
Which mode of transportation generally creates a greater incentive for sprawl?
[ ] Trains & tracks
[ ] Cars & roads

Joseph Potvin
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Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
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  #487  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 10:09 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Which mode of transportation generally creates a greater incentive for sprawl?
[ ] Trains & tracks
[ ] Cars & roads
Both. See the GO Train in Toronto. Once you're outside the 416, they are all surrounded by huge lots (and increasingly replaced by multi-level parking structures). In fact, with 70 000 parking spaces, GO is now the the largest provider of parking in North America. Source:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regional.../rer_work.aspx

And they are adding thousands of spots a year with more multi-level parking garages on the way. Also, those people are not driving cars to the station from condos and townhouses.....

Without strict regulation, sprawl is inevitable. That doesn't mean transport projects should be inhibited. Just that we should be regulating build form much more closely. And urban density should be incentivized or suburban growth disincentivized.

I'd have less of an issue if policy in Canada lead to build form akin to what you see in the radius of any S-Bahn or RER station in Europe. But we all know that is not the case. And indeed, your business model is not built that way. You can only have profitable businesses in your station catchment paying for Moose's operation if there's a huge sprawling McMansion subdivision to fuel said businesses. Like I told you earlier, don't take people here for naive simpletons.

Last edited by Truenorth00; Jul 27, 2017 at 2:08 AM.
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  #488  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 10:12 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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@ Fex-Me

I still want a source on this idea that the greenbelt was only meant for 500 000 people. Where'd you read that. I want to know if that was actually the case and what their intention was at the time or what that number was based on.
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  #489  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2017, 11:29 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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I believe the 500,000 figure comes from the Greber Plan in the late 40s as projected growth of Ottawa to be accommodated within the Greenbelt. I forget the time period.

I think the expectations for built form are going to be substantially different between commuter rail (Go service for the last 50 years) and S-bahn and RER. Commuter rail is going to be based on Park n Ride lots and therefore supports low density housing. 4 trains a day is not going to encourage density around stations. It is now too late for almost all GO stations since these areas are mostly built up. Perhaps some of the park n rides can be replaced with density and local bus transfers.

I will also argue the choice between cars and highways and rail. Which has the bigger impact on our city? I think it is unhealthy to discourage choice of housing in a democratic society. Of course, there are implications and costs of sprawl but we have set up suburbs to be based on cars despite feeble arguments to the contrary. Rapid transit needs to arrive as communities are developed otherwise, we still end up building wide boulevards, massive parking lots and expressways with wasteful cloverleaves. How do you build dense communities based on highways? It is impossible, yet we continue to make this mistake. It is very difficult to retrofit rapid transit and density after a community is fully built.
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  #490  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 12:13 AM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
See the GO Train in Toronto. Once you're outside the 416, they are all surrounded by huge lots (and increasing replaced by multi-level parking structures). In fact, with 70 000 parking spaces, GO is now the the largest provider of parking in North America. And they are adding thousands of spots a year with more multi-level parking garages on the way.
Exactly what MOOSE is not going to do.

The PPR will tend towards parking fees as high as the market will tolerate, and passenger fares as low as possible, experimenting first with a (phone-app-based) pay-what-you-want model. And the lots won't be taking the most valuable land. We're not ashamed to have a strong bias towards those located inside the circle.

Truenorth, what then changes in your analysis with this contrast to the GO service? BTW, comparing and contrasting with GO is interesting because it and MOOSE's system plan each involve about a 400km range.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
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  #491  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
It isn't that bad actually. An easy connection could be made by running parallel to Ramsayville Rd and connect to the Alexandria Subdivision.

For anyone who is interested, I have been working on a Google My Map of Currant and abandoned rail lines in Eastern Ontario which includes the old NY&O ROW. The link to the map is here.

The focus is on ROWs that could be still be used. It has been extended to show routes to Montreal and I plan to show routes to Toronto. So far I have limited it to south of the river, but routes north of the river could be added at some point. It is still a work in progress though.
The old NYC route is fascinating to look at. It follows an almost perfectly straight line from Ottawa to Russell, and then another perfectly straight line from Russell to Embrun. An Embrun-Russell-Ottawa route couldn't possibly get any more direct than that. It's a shame that railway route was torn up--with such a direct route a train could have made it from Russell to Tremblay in 15 minutes. Even without any congestion at all that's still a 30 minute drive.

Too bad there's no possible business case for restoring it. On top of the obvious reasons, Embrun and Russell are hemmed in by AAA prime agricultural land which means they can't grow to be much bigger than they are today (right now they've got a combined population of about 12k and I think the max that can ever be is around 18k with the available land).
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  #492  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 12:35 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Exactly what MOOSE is not going to do.

The PPR will tend towards parking fees as high as the market will tolerate, and passenger fares as low as possible, experimenting first with a (phone-app-based) pay-what-you-want model. And the lots won't be taking the most valuable land. We're not ashamed to have a strong bias towards those located inside the circle.

Truenorth, what then changes in your analysis with this contrast to the GO service? BTW, comparing and contrasting with GO is interesting because it and MOOSE's system plan each involve about a 400km range.
Nothing has changed in my analysis. Because I don't think those parking fees will work out to be all that high in actuality. Especially out in the rural areas. Moreover, users will gladly pay it, if they are getting more housing space. And surely your market survey has told you that. Particularly since you're also promising them a cheap train ride. If I start with the premise that your ride is free to the user, then they'll easily pay at least the cost of OC Transpo fare for parking. So at least $6 per day. But with housing being cheaper in the rural areas, paying more to park is not a pressing issue. So we'll see lots in the catchments of your rural stations charging $10 a day, to which some middle class professional drives from his 3500 sqft home on his one acre lot to his $125k per year public service gig.

Now if you're telling me that the lot in Wakefield is going to charge $15 per day and then tack on a $10 ticket, I agree you might see a wee bit of density around your station. Otherwise, I remain skeptical.

I don't condemn you for seeking out a profit this way. I just don't agree that you're doing the city, the region, the province and the environment any favours.
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  #493  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 12:56 AM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Nothing has changed in my analysis.
Truenorth00,

On a matter of pure logic,

You state "If X, therefore Y."

I state "But ¬X, therefore ¬Y"

You state "Whether X or ¬X, still Y"

I conclude that in your perspective, X is not a relevant variable with respect to Y.

Have you contradicted yourself?
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  #494  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 1:04 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Truenorth00,

On a matter of pure logic,

You state "If X, therefore Y."

I state "But ¬X, therefore ¬Y"

You state "Whether X or ¬X, still Y"

I conclude that in your perspective, X is not a relevant variable with respect to Y.

Have you contradicted yourself?
This is an assumption of yours:

Quote:
"But ¬X, therefore ¬Y"
And I am suggesting that Y = ¬Y for the given ¬X. A completely fair assertion given that you are assuming that X =/= ¬X.

You have any evidence at all that sprawl will not occur near Moose's stations? Or do you have any analysis for what the parking rates might be near your stations?

What I know is that you are offering free train rides from distant places. Generally, when you lower the cost of a commute, in the absence of prevailing regulation prohibiting it, you do see sprawl. You have any examples of cities where transport was cheap, there were no regulations on sprawl and yet sprawl didn't result? I'd like to read about such magical places.
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  #495  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 2:12 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
The old NYC route is fascinating to look at. It follows an almost perfectly straight line from Ottawa to Russell, and then another perfectly straight line from Russell to Embrun. An Embrun-Russell-Ottawa route couldn't possibly get any more direct than that. It's a shame that railway route was torn up--with such a direct route a train could have made it from Russell to Tremblay in 15 minutes. Even without any congestion at all that's still a 30 minute drive.

Too bad there's no possible business case for restoring it. On top of the obvious reasons, Embrun and Russell are hemmed in by AAA prime agricultural land which means they can't grow to be much bigger than they are today (right now they've got a combined population of about 12k and I think the max that can ever be is around 18k with the available land).
Unfortunately, it had to be torn up as a direct consequence of building the St. Lawrence Seaway. It was orphaned from the rest of the company's railway network when the railway bridge at Cornwall had to be removed.
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  #496  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 2:25 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I think the expectations for built form are going to be substantially different between commuter rail (Go service for the last 50 years) and S-bahn and RER. Commuter rail is going to be based on Park n Ride lots and therefore supports low density housing. 4 trains a day is not going to encourage density around stations. It is now too late for almost all GO stations since these areas are mostly built up. Perhaps some of the park n rides can be replaced with density and local bus transfers.
Let's put this in the context of what we're discussing here. Who here believes that we'll see 50 suburban rail stations surrounded by urban levels of density? Hands up. Look at Cyrville or Blair to see how well Ottawa residents take up transit oriented development.

It's Ottawa, a city of about a million with a core that has suburban levels of density by Canadian or global standards and still has tons of room for its suburbs to grow. Anybody who is moving to Chelsea or Casselman ain't doing it for the urban lifestyle. How many townhomes do you see there today?

The rate limiter for these communities, has been, ironically, the road network. They don't have great transit, so they have to drive. And so commuters are really limited to those can put up with the drive or a long and pricey bus in some cases. Now, somebody comes along saying they'll provide a free train ride to the city from those communities. The rate limiter is gone. There'll be acre lot subdivisions popping up all over the place. They'll be driving to Moose's park and ride facilities. They might pay parking charges. But their house is a $100k cheaper (or even more). That buys a lot of $10 daily parking charges.

Like I said, possibly decent business opportunity for Moose. But let's not pretend it's healthy for the city, the region or the province to have our mistakes with Kanata, Stittsville and Orleans repeated several fold across the Ottawa Valley.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Rapid transit needs to arrive as communities are developed otherwise, we still end up building wide boulevards, massive parking lots and expressways with wasteful cloverleaves. How do you build dense communities based on highways? It is impossible, yet we continue to make this mistake.
The best way to fix a problem is to avoid it in the first place. Create policies that discourage ex-urban/rural growth and you won't have much of an issue to begin with. Ottawa has plenty of room left for housing growth in its suburbs. This isn't Toronto where the average single family detached is going for a million inside the 416. So what exactly is the pressing need to facilitate growth at these outlying parts?

Now if you're a developer who's been sitting on land out there, I fully understand why you want a train there. They almost convinced Council the last time on that one.....
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  #497  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 11:50 AM
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Another huge issue is how are they going to get urban-scale sewage and water treatment out to these remote communities? Most people are on septic tanks and wells out there. There will be an environmental price to provide this most basic need (which is far more important than transit), and definitely will cost the taxpayer something no matter what.

The advantage to densification and concentration of our urban activities is the limiting of our environmental footprint while controlling the cost of service distribution. This scheme is completely opposite.
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  #498  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 12:13 PM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
This is an assumption of yours: And I am suggesting that Y = ¬Y for the given ¬X. A completely fair assertion given that you are assuming that X =/= ¬X. You have any evidence at all that sprawl will not occur near Moose's stations?
Truenorth00,

I expect you'll agree that the reality is nuanced.

Permit me to table evidence here in two parts (a) a formal external study; and (b) some of the specific design strategy of our Property-Powered Rail Open Market Development Model.

(a) A Formal External Study

I'll pick just one. Perhaps you'll offer one too.

Does public transportation encourage suburban sprawl?

Effets spatiaux du S-Bahn 2 Zurich

Full report (in French)

Here is part of their conclusion from the full report: (original text reproduced in French, followed by a quick English translation)
L’objectif général de la présente recherche était de déterminer s’il existe un effet mesurable et démontrable entre l’évolution de l’accessibilité d’une localité donnée vers le centre d’une métropole et le développement de cette localité. Pour le cas du projet 2G à Zurich, la réponse est clairement positive, même si les effets territoriaux restent modestes à l’échelle du Canton de Zurich. Ainsi, le projet S-Bahn 2 G n’aura probablement que peu d’impact sur la structure du territoire cantonal zurichois, même s’il contribue à une certaine redistribution de la croissance. Au vu de nos analyses, deux éléments sont décisifs dans l’impact modeste du projet 2G sur la croissance urbaine du Canton de Zurich : (1) Le fait que le développement territorial dans le Canton de Zurich est fortement contraint par le Plan directeur cantonal qui détermine la localisation et le rythme de croissance des zones à bâtir. (2) Le fait que les transports publics, s’ils peuvent favoriser un étalement vers la périphérie, tendent néanmoins à favoriser un développement plus dense autour des gares. En conséquent, les effets du S-Bahn 2 G risquent de se faire sentir de manière plus forte dans certains cantons voisins qui possèdent de plus grandes réserves de zones à bâtir à meilleur prix. Ces périphéries plus éloignées ont le plus fort potentiel de croissance tout en offrant suite au développement des transports aussi un gain de temps de parcours.
The general objective of this research was to determine whether there is a measurable and demonstrable effect between the evolution of accessibility from a given peripheral locality to the centre of a metropolitan area and the growth of that locality. In the case of the 2G project in Zurich, the answer is clearly positive, although the territorial effects remain modest throughout the Canton of Zurich. Thus, the S-Bahn 2 G project will probably have little impact on the structure of Zurich's cantonal territory, even if it contributes to a certain redistribution of growth. In view of our analysis, two factors are decisive in the modest impact of the 2G project on sprawl in the Canton of Zurich: (1) The fact that territorial development in the Canton of Zurich is strongly constrained by the Cantonal Master Plan, which determines the location and rate of growth of building zones. (2) The fact that public transport, while capable of encouraging sprawl towards the periphery, nevertheless tends to favor a more dense development around stations. Consequently, the effects of the 2G S-Bahn are likely to be felt more strongly in some neighbouring cantons which have larger reserves of low-cost building zones. These more distant peripheries have the greatest potential for growth while offering transport development further a saving of travel time.
I chose that study for my reply because it supports your statement that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Generally, when you lower the cost of a commute, in the absence of prevailing regulation prohibiting it, you do see sprawl.
Fine, but what about the regulation part?

(b) The Specific Design Strategy of the Property-Powered Rail Open Market Development Model

Let me now refer you to Section 3.3 of “Preliminary Development Concept Review: Moose Rail Linked Localities” by MTBA Associates Inc. In there, we speak of "Form-Based Codes", and keep in mind, this is in the context of condition-based subscription contracts for train service. Here's a useful excerpt:
3.3 Planning Process and Urban & Rural Design for Typical Sites

This section provides a review of best practices for planning process opportunities and constraints and urban and rural design considerations that may be applied against typical site(s) in the proposed MOOSE Rail system.

...

MOOSE is offering an immensely positive opportunity for these communities to simply reuse their abandoned rail lines and in return get highly sought-after driving-free transit throughout the Region; as well, through best-practice planning and form-based codes and community direction, they will receive the opportunity to have incremental, character-supporting, context-sensitive mixed-use development that suits their particular community. This message will help engage participants in the process.

Generally, the typical process that development of the lands around most of the proposed station stops would require all or some of the following:
  • Stakeholder and public consultation process;
  • Application for Official Plan Amendment (OPA) and zoning amendments;
  • Application for development, site plan control, plan of subdivision, etc.;
  • Application for participation in community design plan;
  • Application for building permits, including any applicable specific elements such as demolition, heritage, brownfield remediation, etc.

This list would need to be verified against each location within each Municipality, before a planning statement and rationale could be developed. Also, as we are proposing “form-based codes” there will be a step in most Municipalities for reviewing applicability of, and expediting, the form-based code process.

Form-based codes can help curb sprawl and help provide opportunity for a place to grow and evolve in a more organic and context-sensitive way. Form-based land use guidelines work well with, and reflect, proactive locally-driven efforts to improve quality-of-life and become more economically competitive. They tend to be customized to reflect local context, character and goals by strongly addressing the physical form of building and development.

Form-based development planning codes and multi-modal transportation are both particularly appropriate to urban fringe and urban shadow communities (like the population centers to be served by MOOSE Rail) due to their reliance on access to the large urban centers they lie outside of, their rootedness in their community or heritage village origins and, in the case of rural locations, their lack of infrastructure and development precedents. Because the generally-accepted “unit” of urban design is the neighborhood, form-based codes (which are becoming very popular in cities across North America) have also been applied to as small as 100-person populations and 35 acres.
That's to say, regulations do apply, and the PPR even adds an additional layer of contract-based quasi-regulation, referred to as form-based codes. You can read about this more here: http://formbasedcodes.org/definition/

Now, let's go yet one step further: What direction does the financial pressure push? When 100% of the financial value relevant to MOOSE is inside the 0.8 km radius circle, should one expect that to be enhanced or eroded by densification outside that circle? We think the answer will depend on context. However it is easy to imagine that a semi-rural locality surrounded by productive farmland and/or a semi-wilderness recreational landscape would likely be more valuable when those un-built areas are protected, than if paradise gets paved over.

This raises different issues, to be sure -- such as access to affordable residential and commercial space. Planning is terribly complex, sure. Matters can be addressed in municipal/provincial regulations, and MOOSE's own form-based codes, and in additional ways.

When you say "Generally, the typical process", it appears you are suggesting that MOOSE is pursuing that typical process. You're entitled to your opinion, and you can distrust anything we say. But I hope we've provided some insight into why and how we reckon we're planning something quite different.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

Last edited by Joseph Potvin; Jul 27, 2017 at 12:26 PM.
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  #499  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 1:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
@ Fex-Me

I still want a source on this idea that the greenbelt was only meant for 500 000 people. Where'd you read that. I want to know if that was actually the case and what their intention was at the time or what that number was based on.
From Wikipedia:
Quote:
At the time, the greenbelt was "intended to circumscribe an area large enough for the accommodation of some 500,000 persons. The inner limit was chosen by considering what area could be economically provided with municipal services."

Reference:
Eggleston, W., 1961. The Queen's Choice. The National Capital Commission, Ottawa, Ontario, 325 pp.
Going back to FFX-ME's original post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFX-ME View Post
The inner greenbelt was intended for 500,000 people. Ottawa has well overgrown it which is why places like Kanata and Orléans exist. Go in google earth, type Ottawa greenbelt and it will show you an outline of its borders. The inner city is practically 100% occupied except for the experimental farm.
Don't forget LeBreton Flats. It is vacant as well.

Also, if you look at the occupied land, it is largely covered by single family homes, even in Centre Town. The opportunities for intensification are huge. It doesn't make sense to encourage sprawl when there are so many single family homes within 2km of Parliament Hill. As a result we can push that 500,000 limit greatly.
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Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 1:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I believe the 500,000 figure comes from the Greber Plan in the late 40s as projected growth of Ottawa to be accommodated within the Greenbelt. I forget the time period.
I'm sorry for not responding immediately. Yes, this figure is from Greber's plan. I don't think I need to cite a reference here, it's a very commonly known fact and you can find 1000s of references for it in half a second using google.
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