Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[invisibleairwaves]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

To be honest, the new Cloverdale is along Fraser Highway. The Old Cloverdale runs closer to the old interurban.

The new Cloverdale is more dense than most of Vancouver. We're talking 25' lots for SFH. Houses close to the street. Nice walkable dense communities.

Clayton is basically a transit-centric community without transit. Although I'd hesitate to call it "walkable" or "nice", at least by anything other than Surrey's standards.

A BRT route down Fraser Highway as an interim solution until Skytrain can be built sounds like a no-brainer. There's already proven demand, as the 502, 395, and 320 are all very busy, and at or over capacity at rush hour.

The main problem is the bottlenecks at Green Timbers and the ALR. The ALR portion is getting widened (at a frustratingly slow pace), but Surrey doesn't seem to have any plans for widening the Green Timbers section in the next decade. Hopefully they'll change that, and put in bus-only lanes while they're at it.


For the long-term RRT plans: since the Holland Pointe towers aren't being built, that patch of land seems like an ideal place to put in a switch, with a branch going south down KGB to Newton and the other going to the existing King George station and an extension going down Fraser.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by tybuilding

The population of Clayton is 7000 per km2 which is as dense as the average of Vancouver overall.

I agree, the population along the Fraser Highway is pretty densely focused, and suitable for even Skytrain.

I don't think it's a waste to build Skytrain out to Langley, the only problem is that it does nothing for the other 3/4 of Surrey. By building down the Fraser Highway, Skytrain won't be any closer to people who live on the West Side and North Delta. It won't do anything for Newton Town Center. It won't do anything for South Surrey and White Rock.

I ride the 319 on Scott Road, and almost every time I'm on it, it's packed full. The other day I departed Scott Road Station at 10:30pm, and the bus was over 100% full (the driver had people pushed up against the front door). There is a lot of existing Transit demand along the Scott Road Corridor. And currently, the fastest way to get to Central City from the west side is to take the 319 all the way to Scott Road and Skytrain back.

If I lived in Sunshine hills, and if I were to leave my front door right now and had to be at Central City mall ASAP, the fastest way would be to take the 340 into 22nd Street Station and Skytrain back from there (it's a few minutes shorter than the 319 or bus to bus along King George).

If Skytrain went down King George, then almost everyone in Surrey from 120th to 152nd would be within a 10 minute bus ride to Skytrain, and it would be much faster and convenient to get to Surrey City Center for many residents. It would also help densify the King George corridor which had been lacking in the recent boom, and Newton Town Center has a lot of potential. Then instead of having buses do long North South routes where they meet at random transit exchanges, most routes can be short East-west routes where they meet at Skytrain stations. It would increase the efficiency of the frequent bus network in the major part of Surrey.

But that does have it's downside too, in that it does nothing for residents in Fleetwood, Cloverdale, or Langley.

That's the problem with expanding transit in Surrey, there are too many viable options, and one option is going to make a some people happy and other people upset. Every option has a list of cons as long as its list of pros.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

For the long-term RRT plans: since the Holland Pointe towers aren't being built, that patch of land seems like an ideal place to put in a switch, with a branch going south down KGB to Newton and the other going to the existing King George station and an extension going down Fraser.

I would agree that's the best long term solution. Having 2 lines hitting all the major town centers South of Fraser and feeding them all into Downtown Surrey (and via Surrey to the rest of North of Fraser) resulting in very short feeder bus trips for almost the entire population, kills the most birds with 2 stones, sure 2 huge and expensive stones, but only 2.

And Surrey Central with it's center platform is a much better transfer point than King George. The expansion could also be done in segments, on both spurs at the same time. I wouldn't mind seeing a station come online once ever year or two, at a lower cost per year, than investing in 1 mega project, then waiting years for the next mega project. With its elevated construction the entire way, this could easily be accomplished at a moderate cost while giving residents immediate results.

Then you could also have low cost LRT along the SRY tracks to connect Abby with Langley, and offer a direct connection from Langley to Newton (via old Cloverdale). I think that positively effects the largest number of people while only building 3 rail lines.

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I agree, the population along the Fraser Highway is pretty densely focused, and suitable for even Skytrain.

I don't think it's a waste to build Skytrain out to Langley, the only problem is that it does nothing for the other 3/4 of Surrey. By building down the Fraser Highway, Skytrain won't be any closer to people who live on the West Side and North Delta. It won't do anything for Newton Town Center. It won't do anything for South Surrey and White Rock.

I ride the 319 on Scott Road, and almost every time I'm on it, it's packed full. The other day I departed Scott Road Station at 10:30pm, and the bus was over 100% full (the driver had people pushed up against the front door). There is a lot of existing Transit demand along the Scott Road Corridor. And currently, the fastest way to get to Central City from the west side is to take the 319 all the way to Scott Road and Skytrain back.

If I lived in Sunshine hills, and if I were to leave my front door right now and had to be at Central City mall ASAP, the fastest way would be to take the 340 into 22nd Street Station and Skytrain back from there (it's a few minutes shorter than the 319 or bus to bus along King George).

If Skytrain went down King George, then almost everyone in Surrey from 120th to 152nd would be within a 10 minute bus ride to Skytrain, and it would be much faster and convenient to get to Surrey City Center for many residents. It would also help densify the King George corridor which had been lacking in the recent boom, and Newton Town Center has a lot of potential. Then instead of having buses do long North South routes where they meet at random transit exchanges, most routes can be short East-west routes where they meet at Skytrain stations. It would increase the efficiency of the frequent bus network in the major part of Surrey.

But that does have it's downside too, in that it does nothing for residents in Fleetwood, Cloverdale, or Langley.

That's the problem with expanding transit in Surrey, there are too many viable options, and one option is going to make a some people happy and other people upset. Every option has a list of cons as long as its list of pros.

Its true that some people wont be please with not getting and some will. I vote for newton route cause like you said it will help out even north delta. Lots of people I know in delta love to travel downtown and tend to take a bus down to scott road to get on skytrain. If the skytrain went along King George it would put a lot more stations closer to people. Surrey could use a better grid like bus system feeding into the skytrain on both sides then

[invisibleairwaves]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

Its true that some people wont be please with not getting and some will. I vote for newton route cause like you said it will help out even north delta. Lots of people I know in delta love to travel downtown and tend to take a bus down to scott road to get on skytrain. If the skytrain went along King George it would put a lot more stations closer to people. Surrey could use a better grid like bus system feeding into the skytrain on both sides then

I'm not sure a King George route would improve bus routes over the whole city. King George is pretty far to the west, when most of the growth has been on the eastern side of the city. And it might might be better for North Delta, but much worse for Langley which has been growing fast and is even contemplating high-rises close to the Fraser corridor.

That said, having both routes would be ideal. I like BCPhil's suggestion of slow expansion in both directions. Considering Translink's issues with raising funding for big all-at-once projects, that seems logical.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

I'm not sure a King George route would improve bus routes over the whole city. King George is pretty far to the west, when most of the growth has been on the eastern side of the city. And it might might be better for North Delta, but much worse for Langley which has been growing fast and is even contemplating high-rises close to the Fraser corridor.

That said, having both routes would be ideal. I like BCPhil's suggestion of slow expansion in both directions. Considering Translink's issues with raising funding for big all-at-once projects, that seems logical.

There has been a lot of growth on the West side of Surrey and there is a lot of density. There are still some empty lots, and currently about a half dozen construction sites within a block of 120th. Take a drive around the 68-66 ave area and see what they've done in the last couple years. I currently live within a block of no less than 9 full size condo buildings, one finished last year, the other just started moving in. The problem is right now there are few East West routes from Scott Road. Most people have to head north all the way to Scott Road Station, regardless of where they are heading.

As well, the central part of Surrey, along the SYR railway is a major job center. There are thousands of jobs located on those industrial lands, and if bus lines went east west from Skytrain stations on King George, not only would be getting residents, but also employees in the area.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

There has been a lot of growth on the West side of Surrey and there is a lot of density. There are still some empty lots, and currently about a half dozen construction sites within a block of 120th. Take a drive around the 68-66 ave area and see what they've done in the last couple years. I currently live within a block of no less than 9 full size condo buildings, one finished last year, the other just started moving in. The problem is right now there are few East West routes from Scott Road. Most people have to head north all the way to Scott Road Station, regardless of where they are heading.

As well, the central part of Surrey, along the SYR railway is a major job center. There are thousands of jobs located on those industrial lands, and if bus lines went east west from Skytrain stations on King George, not only would be getting residents, but also employees in the area.

Has anyone actually considered how busy the current east-west bus routes currently are?

Extending the Skytrain down King George and adding even more east-west routes could make it worse. Take, for example, the Surrey Central-Guildford situation. All the bus lines (yes, all 6 or so of them) from Surrey Central to Guildford are often chock-full most of the day and I often try to get on the only bus that'll take me home (C74) coming from Surrey Central at Guildford; it's near-full or completely-full, and buses are often a lengthy number of minutes apart. Surrey Central-Guildford cannot rely on buses for much longer.

If the SkyTrain would at least be extended to Guildford, it'd put a lot of pressure off Surrey Central's bus station and save costs (i.e. fuel) because buses that currently face 104th Avenue traffic all the way to Surrey Central could end their routes much sooner. Guildford is currently a major hub for people going to/from far places such as Langley and Cloverdale because most of those buses going there from Surrey Central pass through Guildford first. With a Skytrain extension to Guildford sooner, these buses could take shorter routes - in turn, improving bus service to those outer cities, at least in the short term. If they extend Skytrain to Guildford or King George, Guildford should be done first to relieve current east-west pressures, because a King George extension could introduce new pressures that extend onto existing ones and the entire city of Surrey could become a mess in terms of transit.

It currently looks like according to officedweller's diagrams the only better option Guildford might get would be an LRT rail, and there would be no RRT option. This is definitely not good - Translink is underestimating the current problem we have between Surrey Central-Guildford. LRT alternatives 1 (Guildford Route) and 2 do look at least viable, but if the LRT is at-grade it will present more new traffic problems for the already bad 104th Avenue between Central & Guildford. I will seriously protest if they include absolutely zero plans for RRT to Guildford even in the long term; I might even take this situation to the mayor herself and the city council; I have good connections with the municipality.

An extension down Fraser Highway (unless combined with light rail options within Surrey) would be basically useless since it would serve neither the King George & Surrey communities that immediately need more options. Langley and Cloverdale could use some new options, but they do not need them as badly now.

[Whalleyboy]

I do know Guildford needs a better connections and would love to see both routes done with RRT. But I am looking at it realistically. A skytrain route down to Newton would be ideal since it would serve like said a while back "feeding people from South Surrey, White Rock, and Newton to Surreys man core area." Also there is a huge Industrial area out along there.

If we add a skytrain out to Guildford it could also really mess up all Surrey's investment into the city centre. Since businesses would see Guildford as a better option to invest into since it would have both skytrain and hwy 1 access.

This is why I could be okay with the one lrt option 1 since it could help out all areas that want transit. But would be nice if they could have added a rrt to Newton and also a LRT instead of brt to Langley via Guildford

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

I'm not sure a King George route would improve bus routes over the whole city. King George is pretty far to the west, when most of the growth has been on the eastern side of the city. And it might might be better for North Delta, but much worse for Langley which has been growing fast and is even contemplating high-rises close to the Fraser corridor.

That said, having both routes would be ideal. I like BCPhil's suggestion of slow expansion in both directions. Considering Translink's issues with raising funding for big all-at-once projects, that seems logical.

Catching a bus from Langley to Newton and train to Surrey center would be faster then directly to Surrey center and pretty much the same probably to catching a bus to Fleetwood and then a train to Surrey center. Not to mention that it would improve service through Cloverdale.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I agree, the population along the Fraser Highway is pretty densely focused, and suitable for even Skytrain.

I don't think it's a waste to build Skytrain out to Langley, the only problem is that it does nothing for the other 3/4 of Surrey. By building down the Fraser Highway, Skytrain won't be any closer to people who live on the West Side and North Delta. It won't do anything for Newton Town Center. It won't do anything for South Surrey and White Rock.

I ride the 319 on Scott Road, and almost every time I'm on it, it's packed full. The other day I departed Scott Road Station at 10:30pm, and the bus was over 100% full (the driver had people pushed up against the front door). There is a lot of existing Transit demand along the Scott Road Corridor. And currently, the fastest way to get to Central City from the west side is to take the 319 all the way to Scott Road and Skytrain back.

If I lived in Sunshine hills, and if I were to leave my front door right now and had to be at Central City mall ASAP, the fastest way would be to take the 340 into 22nd Street Station and Skytrain back from there (it's a few minutes shorter than the 319 or bus to bus along King George).

If Skytrain went down King George, then almost everyone in Surrey from 120th to 152nd would be within a 10 minute bus ride to Skytrain, and it would be much faster and convenient to get to Surrey City Center for many residents. It would also help densify the King George corridor which had been lacking in the recent boom, and Newton Town Center has a lot of potential. Then instead of having buses do long North South routes where they meet at random transit exchanges, most routes can be short East-west routes where they meet at Skytrain stations. It would increase the efficiency of the frequent bus network in the major part of Surrey.

But that does have it's downside too, in that it does nothing for residents in Fleetwood, Cloverdale, or Langley.

That's the problem with expanding transit in Surrey, there are too many viable options, and one option is going to make a some people happy and other people upset. Every option has a list of cons as long as its list of pros.

That is why I feel Surrey needs BRT as a stepping stone. Who knows in the future they will probably need multiple RRT lines going through Surrey.

[DKaz]

No 3 Road style bus lanes down Fraser Hwy and King George Hwy for now? Conversion to Skytrain when demand warrants it?

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by DKaz

No 3 Road style bus lanes down Fraser Hwy and King George Hwy for now? Conversion to Skytrain when demand warrants it?

That could be done in a year, and then you could monitor them until 2016 to see which of the two lines merits conversion to SkyTrain first.

[crazyjoeda]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

i like the looks of
LRT Alternative 1 with the guildford route
RRT Alternative 2
I dont know why but iI've never been a fan of seeing skytrain all the way to Langley

Because it's stupid!

Skytrain is a rapid transit system not designed for long distance commuters. King George Station to Waterfront is about as long as a Metro system is designed for. It would make more sense to develop a commuter rail line from Langley to Waterfront with stops in Surrey, Delta and Langley only. This would provide a faster less crowded commute. Obviously significant upgrades would be needed, but there's already a rail right of way making a route very possible. The right of way goes through Nordel, Newton, Fraser Heights, Cloverdale and Langley (between Willowbrook Mall and the old city centre).

[mr.x]

I'm not too familiar with Surrey, but I had always envisioned that SkyTrain would be extended until Guildford and a LRT network would branch off from SkyTrain...

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I'm not too familiar with Surrey, but I had always envisioned that SkyTrain would be extended until Guildford and a LRT network would branch off from SkyTrain...

My biggest hesitation about extending SkyTrain to Guildford is how the area could potentially undermine the development efforts in the City Centre. One of Surrey Central biggest selling points is as the hub and terminus of transit, both buses and SkyTrain, for the South of Fraser. Guildford initially sucked the life out of Whalley in the 60's thanks to Hwy 1. If Guildford had both SkyTrain and access to an expanded Port Mann, you can bet your ass that businesses and developers would build there rather than the City Centre.

Also look at what areas have development potential. Between Guildford and Newton, there's more trailer park and industrial properties down King George, while 104th has a narrow right-of-way and is lined with residential subdivisions. Newton really needs to be cleaned up since a portion of Whalley's problems were pushed down there. SkyTrain could be a greater and more useful stimulus for redevelopment in Newton than it would be in Guildford, IMO.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

Because it's stupid!

Skytrain is a rapid transit system not designed for long distance commuters. King George Station to Waterfront is about as long as a Metro system is designed for. It would make more sense to develop a commuter rail line from Langley to Waterfront with stops in Surrey, Delta and Langley only. This would provide a faster less crowded commute. Obviously significant upgrades would be needed, but there's already a rail right of way making a route very possible. The right of way goes through Nordel, Newton, Fraser Heights, Cloverdale and Langley (between Willowbrook Mall and the old city centre).

You are assuming that people who live in Langley or Surrey are headed to Vancouver. What about those people who live in Langley but work in Surrey or those who both live and work in Surrey.

Now I'm not against a commuter rail. But people in Surrey at some point in the future are going to need local rapid transit of some kind to move them around locally.

[nname]

Build the skytrain to Newton first, then to Guildford and/or Langley. This way Surrey Central will always has the advantange as it would be the focal point of SkyTrain lines in three different directions.

[nname]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

Because it's stupid!

Skytrain is a rapid transit system not designed for long distance commuters.

If they work in Vancouver. But a major portions of riders from Langley would probably destined for Surrey, New West, Burnaby, or even Coquitlam - this is equivalent to the commute from Surrey Central to Vancouver today.

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

King George Station to Waterfront is about as long as a Metro system is designed for.

People in Asia, or even London would disagree with you on that.

If a smilar line to Langley (55km) is built in London, it would be the 6th longest line in London, out of a total of 11.

If the line is built in Shanghai, it would rank 2nd today, 4th by 2012, and probably become one of the shortest line by the time they finish their network (whenever it will be)

The major lines in Singapore Metro are all around 50km in length.

One line there are building here in Taipei is exactly 55km (with some possible extensions that can push it up to 60+km). It is actually a combination of 2 lines in two different cities, but it is a through service.

A line of 55km is considered to be "short" in Seoul's standard. Their longest line is apparently >190km, and most lines are longer than 60km.

Examples from North America.. Washington Metro's Red, Orange, and Blue lines are all around 50km in length.

Oh, and even Portland MAX blue line is about 53km...

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

It would make more sense to develop a commuter rail line from Langley to Waterfront with stops in Surrey, Delta and Langley only.

There is a need of commuter rail from Abbotsford via Langley, Surrey, to Waterfront, on top of a rapid transit system (either SkyTrain or LRT, but I would prefer SkyTrain).. Sort of like Evergreen + WCE.

[crazyjoeda]

I'm currently living in London and Vancouver is not London, the same model can't be applied to Vancouver with unique transportation needs. Besides if your familiar with the Underground you know the trains are many time longer than Skytrain and are still overcrowded. To commute into London most people use the excellent commuter rail system.

For local transit with in Surrey/Langley rapid bus service should come before Skytrain or LRT. Skytrain should be developed along the Broadway corridor long before Surrey or Langley is considered.

Commuter rail would have opportunities to connect with the existing Skytrain network at either Scott Road or Sapperton Station and could be used for local commuting between communities in Delta, Surrey and Langley.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by DKaz

No 3 Road style bus lanes down Fraser Hwy and King George Hwy for now? Conversion to Skytrain when demand warrants it?

Problem is they've been upgrading Fraser Hwy for the last several years to 2 lane standard, and it's taking them forever. There isn't much room left on the Fraser Hwy ROW for extra lanes for buses or LRT. In fact, in many spots the bike lane is hardly wide enough to be safe and there are few actual bus stops where the bus can pull out of traffic. And because it is a diagonal road cutting through the grid, it has A LOT of intersections.

However, on King George, in many spots anyway, the roadway has a very wide shoulder than could be converted to a diamond lane where it's not already 3 lanes. There is really no need to build specific bus lanes. As well, if a center ROW were used, it could cut the road in half, and King George is a major artery where many left turns happen. I wouldn't want to interfere or cut down on the functionality of King George, as it is Surrey's major North South corridor.