Sim-Southwest: Our Visionary Concepts Thread

[HooverDam]

^Well first thats the Winter Olympics which isn't nearly as big or popular as the Summer games, so its not really an apt comparison. Its also in the middle of a worldwide recession/depression so travel and spending are obviously down, so not really an apt comparison. And just because one city doesn't have success with something doesn't mean another will have the same issues. So I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

[phxbyrd]

Phoenix could actually host the summer games easily if it could get its transportation infrastructure in place. This would require the federal, state, county and city governments to all make serious contributions. For starters you need all the light rail lines and even more to be done in time along with the commuter rail lines to Wickenburg, Buckeye and Queen Creek. Inter city rail would need to be in place to Tucson, LA, Vegas and SD. Further a second commercial airport akin to John Wayne in OC would need to be up and running. Once you do this, build the SM freeway and upgrade the others all you'll need to do is build an Olympic village and temporary stadium at the fairgrounds. There's a precedent for having the games outside of June-August so the heat is not an issue. The fair grounds and DT would be the transportation nexus.

[SunDevil]

Does anyone know if the canals are covered as they run through the desert? If not why not? wouldn't that save a crap-load of water?

We could start by covering them in the urban areas, most places have their back turned to them anyway so the vast majority of people won't miss a view or something.

This has bothered me since moving here.

[HooverDam]

^Even though most houses and developments stupidly turn their backs on the canals you wouldnt want to cover them in urban and suburban areas because people still enjoy running and biking along the paths and seeing the water.

I think the big thing is cost, it would cost way more to cover the canals than the water you lose. Plus when it comes time to dredge and clean the canals you have to have a cover you can take on and off easily, it would be a pain.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

^Well first thats the Winter Olympics which isn't nearly as big or popular as the Summer games, so its not really an apt comparison.

You're right, summer olympics would be bigger and far more costlier.

The point I'm making is that the Olympics, while providing great exposure to the world of one's city/region, leave that place with a mountain of debt, which effects city services in the long run. I am in no way comparing Vancouver to Phoenix, but lets face reality, AZ is broke and even during the boom times, we never had too much extra money to splurge on anyways. (Couldn't complete the original 1985 freeway plan, didn't build ValTrans due to costs, took two decades to build Cardinals stadium, couldn't build our current freeways to meet demands until tax extension was approved, convention center payments are being made...etc)

[phxbyrd]

Yes it would be expensive to have the games in Phoenix and that would include a mountain of debt but consider all the projects I mentioned needing to be completed. Most of what needs to be done are transportation infastructure, landscaping and law enforcement. After the games are complete the county would be left with all of the benifits plus massive exposure for the state. Yes there would be debt but how else would any of these things get done?

[glynnjamin]

I think that mountain of debt comes from cities who do not already have many of the structures in place. Building 10 different stadiums/arenas can get costly. We already have most of the buildings that we need. We just need the infrastructure - something that is already budgeted for and something that would be offset through state and federal monies.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

You're right, summer olympics would be bigger and far more costlier.

And they attract more people and bring in more money.

I dont understand this viewpoint of yours, do you just go through life looking for problems. Saying 'nope can't be done because of XYZ'? Its odd, thinking up solutions is a lot more gratifying way to go through life I'd imagine.

Like I said before Phoenix isn't perfectly set up to host the games right now, but is any city 14-20 years before they host the games? What was Atlanta like in 1980?

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

Building 10 different stadiums/arenas can get costly. We already have most of the buildings that we need. We just need the infrastructure - something that is already budgeted for and something that would be offset through state and federal monies.

Even if we did have every building in place today (which we don't, not even close) you're still talking about two to three decades out, which by then, would be severely outdated. Phx should focus on keeping basic city services running, attracting high paying jobs, not luring the Olympics with olympic sized debt.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Even if we did have every building in place today (which we don't, not even close) you're still talking about two to three decades out, which by then, would be severely outdated. Phx should focus on keeping basic city services running, attracting high paying jobs, not luring the Olympics with olympic sized debt.

Yah thats the attitude that world class cities are made of.

[mwadswor]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Yah thats the attitude that world class cities are made of.

Yeah, because cities like Atlanta, Vancouver, and SLC are world class cities now, cities like Beijing, Athens, Sydney, and LA weren't world class cities before the olympics, and New York and Chicago still aren't world class cities

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by mwadswor

Yeah, because cities like Atlanta, Vancouver, and SLC are world class cities now, cities like Beijing, Athens, Sydney, and LA weren't world class cities before the olympics, and New York and Chicago still aren't world class cities

Jesus fucking christ with the negativity. Go subscribe to John Taltons blog if you want to be a sadist. Like Ive tried to make the point repeatedly, the Summer Olympics are a much different beast than the Winter Olympics, so comparing this situation to Vancouver or SLC is ridiculous.

Further, nowhere did I say or imply that hosting an Olympics alone makes a city world class. However the infrastructure and exposure that come along with it can certainly help a city step in that direction.

Atlanta for instance is classified as a Beta World City + if you look here. Whats Phoenix? Well nothing. Not even a Gamma world city like San Diego, Philly, Detroit, Portland, Minneapolis, Denver and Seattle.

You folks who don't get it probably never will, but the games isn't just some end goal in it of itself. Its a galvanizing force that brings along with it other things we should all want for our city. Vastly improved infrastructure, new parks, new stadia, increased exposure, vastly increased business connections, etc. Those things are things we need to make Phoenix the World City it can and should become.

Will the Olympics alone make Phoenix a world city? Of course not, but the things it brings along with it will certainly help. And in fact the ability to host World Cups and Olympics is one of the criteria on the World Cities scale. Phoenix needs to do a lot of things to improve itself, attract more large corporations, increase international travel connections, increase its role as a destination for expatriates and refugees, revive the idea of the "Desert Cities Conference" and be a World Leader in arid urbanism, etc etc but the Olympics can go hand and hand with all of those goals.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

I dont understand this viewpoint of yours, do you just go through life looking for problems. Saying 'nope can't be done because of XYZ'? Its odd, thinking up solutions is a lot more gratifying way to go through life I'd imagine.

I definitely enjoy and welcome a good discussion and debate over urban development ideas. (Thats probably why I check this site regularly...) If we all agreed on every topic, how boring would that be?

Who knows, it could be a reality one day. I, however, just think that the costs outweigh the benefits and that the city of Phx could spend $1-2 or even $3 billion (with inflation 24 years from now), on much better things than 2 weeks of TV exposure, parties and tourists.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

on much better things than 2 weeks of TV exposure, parties and tourists.

Well thats the issue with your argument right there. If you think thats the benefits of the Olympics I don't know what to tell you.

Atlanta turned a $10 million profit by the by in 96.

[BrandonJXN]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Well thats the issue with your argument right there. If you think thats the benefits of the Olympics I don't know what to tell you.

Atlanta turned a $10 million profit by the by in 96.

And are still benefiting from the Olympics. Salt Lake City too.

[PhxPavilion]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Well thats the issue with your argument right there. If you think thats the benefits of the Olympics I don't know what to tell you.

Atlanta turned a $10 million profit by the by in 96.

Vancouver's security bill, originally projected at somewhere around 250 million has ballooned to 1 billion. I don't buy the benefits argument either.

[combusean]

Phoenix and Tempe will own this, with the Rio Salado Stadium District comprised of both cities. I got postively giddy when my brother helped me come up with the name:

RIO SALADO OLYMPIC STADIUM



We have almost every venue we need but the 4 big ones (aquatics, tennis, velodrome, OC ceremonies) presuming there is a yes to the following question:
Can the Phoenix Convention Center seat a minimum of 22,000 people simultaneously across 4 venues for small-court athletic events?

Venues Table: Scroll right to see the Phoenix equivalent.

Event		Range	1996 Atlanta		2000 Sydney		2004 Athens		2008 Beijing		2012 London		20XX Phoenix		
			Venue		Capac	Venue		Capac	Venue		Capac	Venue 		Capac	Venue		Capac	Venue			Capac
OC Ceremonies	72-110	Centennial OS	85	Stadium AU	110	Athens OS	72	Beijing NS	91	London OS	80	Rio Salado 		85
Athletics	72-110	Centennial OS	85	Stadium AU	110	Athens OS	72	Beijing NS	91	London OS	80	  Olympic Stadium	
Archery		?	Stone Mountain	?	Sydney Intl AP	?	Panathianko	45	Olympic Green	5	Lord's Crkt Grd	30	Phoenix Municipal Stad	10
Badminton	4-12.5	GSU Arena	4	The Dome	10	Goudi O Cmplx	5	Beijing UT Gym	7.5	Wembley Arena	12.5	Phoenix Conv Center	 6	
Baseball	8-20,50	Fulton C Stad	52	Sydney BS	21	Hellinikon	8.7	Wukesong BF	18	N/A			Chase Field		49
Basketball	18-23	Georgia Dome	71	Sydney SprDome	21	Athens O IH	19	Wukesong IS	18	O2 Arena	23	US Airways Center	18
			Forbes Arena	6	The Dome	10	Hellinikon IOA	15				Basketball A	12	Wells Fargo Arena	14
Boxing			Alexander Mem C	9	Sydney CC	?	Peristeri OBH	8.4	Workers IA	13	Excel EC	6-10	McKale Center		15
Equestrianism	?	GA Horse Park	?	Sydney I EQ C	?	Markopoulo OEC	8-15	Hong Kong Eq	18				Phoenix Equestrian* Ctr	15		
Fencing		5-10	GA World CC	?	Sydney CC	?	Nikia O WgL H	5.1	O Green CC	5.7	Excel EC	6-10	Phoenix Convention Ctr	5.5	11.5	
Football	28-92	Sanford Stadium	92K	Sydney FS	45.5	Kaftanzoglio	28	Workers Stad	71	Wembley Stad	90	Univ of Phoenix Stad	71
Art Gymnastics	~20	Georgia Dome	71	Sydney SprDome	21	Olympic Hall	19	Beijing NIS	19	O2 Arena	23	US Airways Center	19
Rhy Gymnastics	7.5-10	Stegeman	10	The Dome	10	Galatsi OH	7.5	Beijing UT Gym	7.5	Wembley Arena	12.5	Wells Fargo Arena	14				
Handball    Fin	10-20	Georgia Dome	71	The Dome	10	Hellinikon	15	Beijing NIS	19	Basketball A 	12	Jobing.Com Arena	18
	   Qual	6-8.5	GW World CC	?				Faliro		8.5	Olympic SC Gym	7	Handball Arena	6-7	USA Basketball Arena	4-6
Hockey	    Fin	~16	Herndon Stadium	15	Sydney HC	15/8	Hellinikon	7.2	O Green H F	17	Olympic HC	15	Sun Devil Stadium	74
	   Qual	2-5	Panther Stadium	5				Hellinikon	2						5	Hoy Stadium		7.5
Judo		6-9	GA World CC	?	Sydney CC	?	Ano Liosia OH	9.3	Beijing STU Gym	8	Excel EC	6-10	Phoenix Conv Center	7	18.5
Shooting	?	Wolf Creek	?	Sydney Intl SC	?				Beijing SR Hall	8/2,6,2				Ben Avery*		10 
Softball	5-18	Golden Park	5,000	Blacktown	<8	Hellinikon	4.8	Fengtai SB F	18	N/A			Camelback Ranch		13
Table Tennis	5-10	GA World CC	?	State Sports C	5	Galatsi OH	7.5	Peking U Gym	8	Excel EC	6-10	Phoenix Conv Center	7	25.5
Taekwondo	6-9	?			The Dome	10	Faliro		8.5	Beijing STU Gym 8	Excel EC	6-10	Phoenix Conv Center	7	32.5
Tennis		10	Stone Mountain	12	NSW Ten Ctr	10	Olympic TC	8.6	Olympic Green	10	Wimbledon	10.5	Rio Salado Tennis Ctr	10
Track Cycling	3-6	Stone Mountain	?	Dunc Gray Velo	3.15	Athens O Velo	5.2	Laoshan Velo	6	London Velo	6	Rio Salado Velodrome	5.5
Volleyball Fin	11-19	Omni Coliseum	16	Sydney EC	11	Peace & Frnd	16	Capital IS	18	Earls Court	19	Veterans MC		15			
	  Qual	5-10	Stegeman Col	10	The Dome	10				Beijing IT Gym	5				McKale Center		15
Wght Lfting	5-10	GA World CC	?	?			Nikai O Wgl H		Beihang U Gym	5.4	Excel EC	6-10	Phoenix Conv Center	6	38.5
Wrestling	5-10	GA World CC	?	Sydney CC	?	Ano Liosia OH	9.3	China Ag U	8	Excel EC	6-10	Phoenix Conv Center	7	45.5
Swimming		GA Tech Aq Ctr	14	Sydney Int AC	17/10	Athens O AqC	11.5	Beijing NAC	17/6	London AqC	17/2.5	New Sun Devil Aq C	10
Diving			"			"			"		6.2	"			"			"			5
Sync Swimming		"			"			"		5.3	"			"			"			4
Water Polo		GA Tech Aq Ctr	4	"			"		11.5	Ying Tung Nata	5	"			"			10
Rowing		20	Lake Lanier	37 Acr	Sydney I Reg C	?	Schinias	14	Shunyi Olympic	26/1.2	Dorney Lake	20	Tempe Beach Park	20		
Canoeing/kayak	20	"			"			Schinias	14	"			Dorney Lake	20	Tempe Beach Park	20
Slalom Kayaking		Ocoee River		Penrith WWS	?	Schinias	7.6	"			Broxbourne WWC	12/0	Rio Salado WhtWater Fac	15

A * by the venue in the Phoenix list indicates a temporary facility
A / after the capacity indicates the post-reconstructed size

According to the table, Volleyball is always held at its own venue and is not shared with others.
Triathalon and Modern Pentathalon should be easily shared with existing venues.  Data is incomplete for these events.

Funding Table

NEW VENUES						PHX COST	TEMPE COST

	Rio Salado Olympic Stadium	85,000		  $700,000,000			
					
	Rio Salado Tennis Center	10,000		  $160,000,000		
					 4,000
					 2,000 

	Sun Devil Aquatics Center	10,000				$190,000,000	
					 5,000
					 4,000

	Rio Salado Velodrome		 5,500		   $75,000,000	

	Rio Salado Whitewater Facility	 		   $10,000,000	
	
REHABBED VENUES

	Sun Devil Stadium				 		 $70,000,000	
	Veterans Memorial Coliseum			   $45,000,000	

CITY SUBTOTAL						  $990,000,000	$260,000,000
SUBTOTAL										$1,250,000,000

MISC IMPROVEMENTS					 				  $100,000,000		
CONDEMNATION AND SITE IMPROVEMENTS							  $100,000,000
CAPITAL COST SUBTOTAL									$1,450,000,000

OUTSIDE FUNDS										($450,000,000)	
	State of Arizona				$150,000,000	
	Maricopa County					$100,000,000
	City of Glendale				 $50,000,000
	City of Tucson					 $25,000,000
	Chase Field Demolition/Sale			$125,000,000  

CAPITAL COST GRAND TOTAL								$1,000,000,000

The capital cost subtotal for all venues and rehabilitations is estimated at $1,450,000,000.

I expect the County, Tucson, Glendale, and the State to chip in money, and money to be made from the demolition and redevelopment of Chase Field, making the shared capital costs of Tempe and Phoenix to be an easy billion dollars. There's no sense in putting it to a county wide vote where it will lose: let the most liberal cities that stand to benefit the most have a simultaneous election.

A TIF district on the Chase Field Redevelopment Area, the Rio Salado Olympic Village, and all other venues should cover ongoing operation costs, pay down debt service, and cover security costs over a very long time. The Olympic Village will probably require a $500,000,000 letter of credit to build from the Stadium District.

I think the Phoenix Olympics are very doable.

[Don B.]

^ LOL...we can't even fund basic governmental services at a first-world level, and you think in this cheap-assed lowest common denominator state that Phoenix is going to tax itself $1 BILLION to attract an Olympics?

This song comes to mind:
• Video Link



--don

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Don B.

^ LOL...we can't even fund basic governmental services at a first-world level, and you think in this cheap-assed lowest common denominator state that Phoenix is going to tax itself $1 BILLION to attract an Olympics?


--don

The last 40 years of Phoenix taxing itself for sports hasn't really taught you anything, has it?

Combusean, I don't think Im following, are you saying to demo Chase Field? Thats not really workable/possible for a couple of reasons. First, where do the D'backs play for the 2 or 3 years while their stadium has been flattened and is being rebuilt?

Secondly, it wouldn't likely work like the Atlanta situation in which they were able to retrofit their Olympic stadium into a baseball venue. Because any baseball venue here would have to be fully enclosed and have a roof it would I imagine limit what you could do retrofit wise.

For these reasons, like I keep saying, the Sun Devil Stadium site (or right around there) is the only sensible site for an Olympic Stadium.

[plinko]

Sean,

Where would you propose the DBacks play for the 4+ years it would take to construct the stadium, use it for the Olympics, and then have it reconfigured for baseball?