Should Canada's Capital be Officially Bilingual

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know you probably absolutely can't fucking stand the thought but they still do define it to a large extent.

Although in recent years, it seems increasingly like "one solitude and most of Canada".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Although in recent years, it seems increasingly like "one solitude and most of Canada".

To me, that's basically the same thing. Just because one solitude denies that it is one doesn't mean that it isn't.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know you probably absolutely can't fucking stand the thought but they still do define it to a large extent.

You could convince me that 1 plus 1 doesn't equal 2 before I would ever believe that Canada is a partnership of English and French nations

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Doug

You could convince me that 1 plus 1 doesn't equal 2 before I would ever believe that Canada is a partnership of English and French nations

Oh, I'd admit that that probably wasn't the initial plan.

But we've actually evolved more towards that since then, not away from it.

Ironically (and contrary to conventional wisdom), Canada might be said to more of a two-nation state today than it was in 1867 or in 1965.

[1overcosc]

Quebec, Newfoundland, and (non-NF) Anglo-Canada are nations. Each with their own society and culture, together forming a single sovereign state.

That's pretty obvious. From Ontario, Quebec may as well be a different country. I see no point in denying the multi-national nature of the Canadian state.

[Chadillaccc]

I voted yes for Ottawa, but should have voted for the "Yes + Gatineau" option, just for the record.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Here is a map of native French speakers in Ottawa


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ottawa

It really should be emphasized that in this map, a person counts as 'francophone' if that was the language they first learned as a child.

Many of these people, over the course of their life, became anglophones. They went to English schools, got a job in an English-language workplace, married an English speaker, most likely unilingual, and then had children who speak mainly English. They speak English almost all the time in their daily lives.

Only by counting such people as 'French' can you even get close to 50% in many of those areas that are labelled as such. If you take only those people who actually speak French as the main language of their daily life, I don't think there's a single neighbourhood in Ottawa where such people are more than 30%. The rural Cumberland ward (the easternmost one that is big and deep blue) is an exception probably as it has an agricultural economy where people can be relatively isolated.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

It really should be emphasized that in this map, a person counts as 'francophone' if that was the language they first learned as a child.

Many of these people, over the course of their life, became anglophones. They went to English schools, got a job in an English-language workplace, married an English speaker, most likely unilingual, and then had children who speak mainly English. They speak English almost all the time in their daily lives.

Only by counting such people as 'French' can you even get close to 50% in many of those areas that are labelled as such. If you take only those people who actually speak French as the main language of their daily life, I don't think there's a single neighbourhood in Ottawa where such people are more than 30%. The rural Cumberland ward (the easternmost one that is big and deep blue) is an exception probably as it has an agricultural economy where people can be relatively isolated.

First language learned and still spoken is pretty standard criteria. Language used most commonly at home/work is digging down to a different level.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Doug

You could convince me that 1 plus 1 doesn't equal 2 before I would ever believe that Canada is a partnership of English and French nations

how would you define the relationship between the two languages in canada?

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

To me, that's basically the same thing. Just because one solitude denies that it is one doesn't mean that it isn't.

the big solitude isn't a solitude. it has the united states to keep it company. but this grates for old loyalist reasons.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

the big solitude isn't a solitude. it has the united states to keep it company. but this grates for old loyalist reasons.

I don't think you go far enough - I think that solitude has actually opened itself up to the entire Anglosphere, thanks to technology and globalization. The USA just happens to be the biggest and nearest part of that larger agglomeration.

But Ottawa should be officially bilingual. (Just wanted to say something related to the topic of the thread.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Quebec, Newfoundland, and (non-NF) Anglo-Canada are nations. Each with their own society and culture, together forming a single sovereign state.

That's pretty obvious. From Ontario, Quebec may as well be a different country. I see no point in denying the multi-national nature of the Canadian state.

Correct. And of course there is the aboriginal dimension that people (including me) always leave out because it's so... unscrutable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't think you go far enough - I think that solitude has actually opened itself up to the entire Anglosphere, thanks to technology and globalization. The USA just happens to be the biggest and nearest part of that larger agglomeration.

But Ottawa should be officially bilingual. (Just wanted to say something related to the topic of the thread.)

This is very true, and Quebec isn't really a solitude either (anymore), as it also has "friends" around the world as well. The political and other linkages are less fluid than for Anglo-Canada, due to distance and also the fact that Quebec is subject to Ottawa's authority for many international and bilateral things.

I also should point out that the "solitudes" don't speak to total isolation in the global sense, but rather only to isolation from the other parallel reality (solitude) that exists in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

It really should be emphasized that in this map, a person counts as 'francophone' if that was the language they first learned as a child.

Many of these people, over the course of their life, became anglophones. They went to English schools, got a job in an English-language workplace, married an English speaker, most likely unilingual, and then had children who speak mainly English. They speak English almost all the time in their daily lives.

Only by counting such people as 'French' can you even get close to 50% in many of those areas that are labelled as such. If you take only those people who actually speak French as the main language of their daily life, I don't think there's a single neighbourhood in Ottawa where such people are more than 30%. The rural Cumberland ward (the easternmost one that is big and deep blue) is an exception probably as it has an agricultural economy where people can be relatively isolated.

This is quite true. This is the reason why French mother tongue in Ottawa is 15% but French home/life usage is probably only around 10%. There is something like a 30-40% drop due to people switching to English to "live their lives in". Several members of my family are like this, as are many of my friends.

They more often that not will send their kids to francophone schools (or at the very least French immersion) but other than speaking French with the grandparents and relatives from Quebec a few times a year, French is not that relevant to their everyday lives. They don't listen to the radio, watch TV or movies, read books or magazines, attend performances or use public services in French. Even though most of this is available to some degree in Ottawa.

In Gatineau on the other hand the ratio of French mother tongue vs. usage is over 100%, which means there are more people who use French as their everyday "life" language than there are who speak it as a mother tongue.

[Kitchissippi]

I think the level of bilingualism in the City of Ottawa is fine as it is, no need to make it "official". The concept of bilingualism is so misunderstood anyway — it's about duality and the ability of either language to sustain itself, not a singular "everybody-should-be-able-to-speak-both-languages" scenario. Ergo, it is Gatineau's (and Quebec's) ability to remain a place where the French language can flourish that makes the National Capital Region (and Canada) bilingual. It is not the role of the municipal government of the City of Ottawa to be the epicentre of that issue, but it should be polite enough to provide essential bilingual services whenever there is demand.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I think the level of bilingualism in the City of Ottawa is fine as it is, no need to make it "official". The concept of bilingualism is so misunderstood anyway — it's about duality and the ability of either language to sustain itself, not a singular "everybody-should-be-able-to-speak-both-languages" scenario. Ergo, it is Gatineau's (and Quebec's) ability to remain a place where the French language can flourish that makes the National Capital Region (and Canada) bilingual. It is not the role of the municipal government of the City of Ottawa to be the epicentre of that issue, but it should be polite enough to provide essential bilingual services whenever there is demand.

Regarding the highlighted part, I think you are largely right, but Ottawa's Franco-Ontarian community would beg to differ. And this is the primary reason we are having this discussion.

A generation or two ago the francophone population of Ottawa and the Outaouais (Quebec) side of the river was almost equal in absolute numbers.

Today, I think there are about three times as many francophones on the Quebec side as in Ottawa. And of course, as has been said, many of the Ottawa francophones are "virtual" francophones.

Most of what you would call "francophone life" in the capital region has transitioned from being primarily happening in Ottawa (this was many decades ago) to shared between the two sides when I was a kid, to being very predominantly on the Quebec side these days.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I think the level of bilingualism in the City of Ottawa is fine as it is, no need to make it "official". The concept of bilingualism is so misunderstood anyway — it's about duality and the ability of either language to sustain itself, not a singular "everybody-should-be-able-to-speak-both-languages" scenario. Ergo, it is Gatineau's (and Quebec's) ability to remain a place where the French language can flourish that makes the National Capital Region (and Canada) bilingual. It is not the role of the municipal government of the City of Ottawa to be the epicentre of that issue, but it should be polite enough to provide essential bilingual services whenever there is demand.

In this particular case, isn't just a matter of ensuring that Ottawa residents and taxpayers get municipal services in the official language of their choice? Seems pretty straightforward.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

In this particular case, isn't just a matter of ensuring that Ottawa residents and taxpayers get municipal services in the official language of their choice? Seems pretty straightforward.

It sounds simple but the practical implications (and impacts on employment opportunities and who gets hired) of readily providing French services to anyone who wants them, all of the time, is why you encounter resistance to this in certain Anglo-Ottawa circles.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It sounds simple but the practical implications (and impacts on employment opportunities and who gets hired) of readily providing French services to anyone who wants them, all of the time, is why you encounter resistance to this in certain Anglo-Ottawa circles.

For whom my sympathy is the square root of bugger all. Some people seem more willing to expend energy resisting the use of French than they are to just learn the language! Personally, I chose the path of least resistance.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

In this particular case, isn't just a matter of ensuring that Ottawa residents and taxpayers get municipal services in the official language of their choice? Seems pretty straightforward.

There are huge efficiencies in maintaining the primacy of English as a working language within Ottawa's city hall, as I'm sure the prime use of French has in Gatineau's administration. It's costly and time consuming to translate all working materials at each step and making sure they're equivalent before moving on to the next stage. Especially considering the fact that practically all of the Franco Ontarians who live in Ottawa have enough competency in English to follow what's going on — what's the point of quibbling about the process when the end result is a bilingual product.

What I get from my Franco Ontarian relatives and friends is that the community revolves more around towns like Rockland, Hawkesbury or Alexandria, and the culture is rooted in the rural and small town lifestyle, with fewer metropolitan traditions like the Quebecois have. Whatever franco vibe Ottawa-the-Capital is trying to pull off is catering more to how Montreal and the rest of Quebec views it more than trying to express its Franco Ontarian heritage.