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  #181  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 2:17 AM
PdX Farr PdX Farr is offline
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Furthermore there are higher and better uses for the land than a baseball stadium. Growth related to OHSU and any bio tech spinoffs would best be accommodated on the Zidell property. The Portland Public Schools HQ building would be a better site for a baseball stadium. Both MAX and Streetcar pass nearby.
Let me get my head around this thought.

Far better uses for the land which is a prime spot on the water where the public currently has no access would be more office buildings?

A stadium designed for access to and views of the water (as well as the city and mountains) while incorporating the south waterfront neighborhood as well as connecting that area to the rest of downtown while being a community center piece drawing large crowds many days of the week is a worse use than office buildings? Let’s not forget the economic boon this would be for tourism, restaurants, growth, etc.

Yeah, much worse use.
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  #182  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 3:53 AM
johnliu johnliu is offline
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I suppose it depends what is done to make the ballpark area accessible and active on the most of the year when there isn't a game and the stadium is just a big empty lump, where you put the parking and/or if you're going to build a MLB stadium without parking, how you handle the traffic to and from.

Most baseball stadium areas I know of are pretty dead almost all year.

The Ziddell concept was for mixed uses with lots of waterfront access and public space.

Baseball stadium, plenty of waterfront access and public space, might not leave much room for other revenue generating uses. Not sure a MLB baseball stadium generates enough revenue for the landowner to be more attractive than mixed use. And if the major professional team up and leaves, the landowner is stuck with a useless facility.
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  #183  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 4:17 AM
58rhodes 58rhodes is offline
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Personally I think that would be a great location for a stadium--obviously the "other" concept isnt working either--but its really up to the landholder--time will tell I guess
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  #184  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 7:27 PM
PdX Farr PdX Farr is offline
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I suppose it depends what is done to make the ballpark area accessible and active on the most of the year when there isn't a game and the stadium is just a big empty lump, where you put the parking and/or if you're going to build a MLB stadium without parking, how you handle the traffic to and from.

Most baseball stadium areas I know of are pretty dead almost all year.

The Ziddell concept was for mixed uses with lots of waterfront access and public space.

Baseball stadium, plenty of waterfront access and public space, might not leave much room for other revenue generating uses. Not sure a MLB baseball stadium generates enough revenue for the landowner to be more attractive than mixed use. And if the major professional team up and leaves, the landowner is stuck with a useless facility.
Valid points, but I am not sure what stadiums you are referencing that are new and dead around the ball parks? St. Louis has built a whole entertainment village right across the street and keeps the area active all year round. Baltimore opens the walkway between the warehouse and the park on non game days to allow access to the park. San Diego has their whole outfield open and accessible on non games days turning it into a community park. All are busy and have foot traffic on non game days.

I could see something similar with a ballpark on the water at this location. Areas accessible on non game days that would be park of the stadium otherwise. Vendors (think food carts) available this way as well.

Plus, with the other entertainment and restaurant options sure to open around the stadium will keep it busy. A venue this size could host more than just baseball as well. The Rose Quarter had so much potential if Allen actually developed the area. I believe the PDP will develop the area and not just plop a park and call it good.
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  #185  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 9:38 PM
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PdX Farr, "San Diego has their whole outfield open and accessible on non games days turning it into a community park. All are busy and have foot traffic on non game days."

do everything to make that field as flexible as possible (inc. concerts). could qualify for that new neighborhood's park space requirement. maybe rethink the waterfront pedestrian footpath to allow for more bandwidth. offices and housing still built, but now with the stadium as a major attractor, inc. for the new development across the way at omsi. a pier at the stadium to allow shuttle boats to bring in/out people. put the james beard public market in there. etc.
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  #186  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2018, 12:30 AM
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PdX Farr, "San Diego has their whole outfield open and accessible on non games days turning it into a community park.
please back this up with some verifiable citations.

I know that there is a "park" just outside center field, behind some weird dark monolithic structure. It's not free on game days, and on off days it's where people take their dogs to poop. it also has serious sightline limitations to actually be able to see the game being played.

I find it terribly unlikely that the whole outfield is ever opened up to the public. there's no freaking way that the team and the groundskeeper would allow the unwashed masses out onto that piece of grass. that shit is not cheap to install or to maintain. have you seen what humans are capable of doing?
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  #187  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2018, 2:01 AM
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Originally Posted by eric cantona View Post
please back this up with some verifiable citations.

I know that there is a "park" just outside center field, behind some weird dark monolithic structure. It's not free on game days, and on off days it's where people take their dogs to poop. it also has serious sightline limitations to actually be able to see the game being played.

I find it terribly unlikely that the whole outfield is ever opened up to the public. there's no freaking way that the team and the groundskeeper would allow the unwashed masses out onto that piece of grass. that shit is not cheap to install or to maintain. have you seen what humans are capable of doing?
This is what the previous poster was referencing which I think you are too, which is an outer outfield, not the actually game outfield. https://www.petcoparkinsider.com/park-at-the-park

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The Park at the Park is a park in the Park
Located outside the outfield wall but inside the park gates (so yes you will need a ticket on game days), the Park at the Park is approximately 2.7 acre park. The Park at the Park contains a mini little league infield diamond, trees, a statue of Tony Gwynn, and lots of area to sprawl out to picnic and play. Bring a blanket!
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  #188  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2018, 3:21 PM
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Seriously? A ballpark requiring acres of event parking is not exactly what we want or need in this location.
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  #189  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2018, 4:24 PM
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^Petco Park has virtually zero parking. There was a huge parking lot next door to it for a few years that’s finally being redeveloped in to a large mixed use project. There are a couple surface lots remaining but they won’t be there much longer. I don’t think that’s something we’d have to worry about here (save for a large parking garage which is what Petco uses).


This is all just wishful thinking anways. I think many of us are just concerned about how much longer this land will remain undeveloped, we’d rather see a ballpark than nothing. I personally still prefer the PPS location.
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  #190  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2018, 6:45 PM
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^Petco Park has virtually zero parking.
other than two surface lots: Tailgate parking (4 city blocks) and the Lexus Premier lot (2 city blocks)?

other than those there's the 8-story Padre's parking garage at 11th and J.

or the 6-story public garage just east of the Lexus lot.

or the 7-story garage across 7th (Tony Gwynn Dr) from the stadium.

other than that, you are correct - virtually nothing.
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  #191  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2018, 6:48 PM
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if it isn't obvious, I think the notion of putting a stadium at South Waterfront is a horrible idea.

the Blanchard (PPS) site is the most ideal, on the face of it. it has a fair amount of existing parking already (Rose Quarter), plenty of transit options, and decent freeway access. it's either that, or in the suburbs.
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  #192  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2018, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by eric cantona View Post
other than two surface lots: Tailgate parking (4 city blocks) and the Lexus Premier lot (2 city blocks)?

other than those there's the 8-story Padre's parking garage at 11th and J.

or the 6-story public garage just east of the Lexus lot.

or the 7-story garage across 7th (Tony Gwynn Dr) from the stadium.

other than that, you are correct - virtually nothing.


Yes, I mentioned parking garages. The lots currently surrounding Petco have been there for nearly a decade and are being developed or are about to be. My point was that wouldn’t be an issue in the South Waterfront area as there is hardly any land available for large swaths of surface lots.

You are right though, there wouldn’t be much, if any, room for parking garages. They’d have to build parking underneath the stadium.
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Last edited by Derek; Jul 12, 2018 at 8:10 PM.
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  #193  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2018, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by PdX Farr View Post
Valid points, but I am not sure what stadiums you are referencing that are new and dead around the ball parks?
Moda Center.

It's basketball, not baseball, but the same thing applies. Have you ever been to the Rose Quarter when there isn't a game or an event? It's deader than dead.

If you put a dead space like that between SOWA and Riverplace, you permanently divide the two rather than bridging them together.

Sure, I'd rather see a baseball stadium there than see the land sit vacant, but I'd rather see housing there than a stadium.
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  #194  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2018, 11:55 PM
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Moda Center.

It's basketball, not baseball, but the same thing applies. Have you ever been to the Rose Quarter when there isn't a game or an event? It's deader than dead.

If you put a dead space like that between SOWA and Riverplace, you permanently divide the two rather than bridging them together.

Sure, I'd rather see a baseball stadium there than see the land sit vacant, but I'd rather see housing there than a stadium.
MLB plays double the amount of games as the NBA so there would be 81 home games in baseball compared to 41 home games in basketball (not counting playoffs). Also, in 2017 there was an average of around 30,000 people in attendance per game in the MLB vs. around 18,000 people in attendance per game in the NBA during their 2017-18 season.

My point is, the frequency of games and average number in attendance allows neighborhoods around an MLB stadium to build on the larger economy of the sport. If a stadium is built correctly, it will function more like Providence Park than the Moda Center. I could see a design that "carves" out space along Moody to have food truck type restaurants that open onto the sidewalk keeping that area lively, perhaps even double sided spaces so they can also serve the concourse on event days.

I'm not sure why the OMSI site isn't being talked about, I think that neighborhood could be an interesting fit for MLB.

That said, I also wouldn't mind the PPS HQ site. I'm highly opposed to the Port of Portland terminal since there are not ANY close by mass transportation options.
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  #195  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2018, 12:11 AM
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I'm not sure why the OMSI site isn't being talked about, I think that neighborhood could be an interesting fit for MLB.

That said, I also wouldn't mind the PPS HQ site. I'm highly opposed to the Port of Portland terminal since there are not ANY close by mass transportation options.
I agree completely.
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  #196  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2018, 1:31 AM
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I mean there’s nothing around the Moda Center, it’s not really a fair comparison.
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  #197  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2018, 1:41 AM
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Coors Field in Denver was the catalyst for a whole neighborhood that flourishes 365 days a year. With an assortment of restaurants, and pubs that get plenty of business even in the offseason. And Coors Field is as beautiful today, as it was when it was new. Incredible for that part of the city ,LODO, that was a bloody hell zone, and skid row before it was built.
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  #198  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2018, 6:36 AM
PdX Farr PdX Farr is offline
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Originally Posted by eric cantona View Post
please back this up with some verifiable citations.
LMGTFY

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Originally Posted by AcmeGreg View Post
Seriously? A ballpark requiring acres of event parking is not exactly what we want or need in this location.
How much parking is located at Providence Park? People will use the convenient option and in this situation it will be mass transit and not parking.

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Moda Center.

It's basketball, not baseball, but the same thing applies.
So many things wrong with this. First, what part of new don't you understand? Moda was built in 1995. By my estimation that is 23 years OLD. Second, we are talking baseball parks, not basketball arenas. Not even the same stratosphere.
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  #199  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2018, 6:52 AM
johnliu johnliu is offline
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LMGTFY


How much parking is located at Providence Park? People will use the convenient option and in this situation it will be mass transit and not parking.


So many things wrong with this. First, what part of new don't you understand? Moda was built in 1995. By my estimation that is 23 years OLD. Second, we are talking baseball parks, not basketball arenas. Not even the same stratosphere.
Not clear why it matters what game is played inside. And won't the new stadium eventually be 23 years OLD?
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  #200  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2018, 11:27 PM
PdX Farr PdX Farr is offline
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Not clear why it matters what game is played inside. And won't the new stadium eventually be 23 years OLD?
You need to look at the modern day baseball stadium and how they fit them into the downtowns and make them destinations year round. It’s so much different than a basketball/hockey arena. They are usually open air and flow into the city/streets around. Plus as a poster already mentioned, they host twice as many games. 81 for baseball versus 41 for basketball.
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