Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

When you have special interests meddling in business decisions, this is the result you get. Should have let the owners build what they wanted in the first place.

Welcome to Hamilton, it's all starting to make sense why most investors won't touch this city with a 10 foot pole.

you've got it wrong. they bought a designated historic property and know full well what that means (assuming they are reasonably astute business-people...I'm not a business person and even I know what regulations are in place if I were to purchase a designated building).
They worked out a rule-breaking deal with former mayor DiIanni. The only 'special interest' groups that got involved were those interested in seeing the historic designation adhered to, both at the city and provincial level.

All we have here is a bunch of people who worked out a closed-door, law-breaking deal that would have absolutely fattened their pockets, now being forced to follow the rules (heaven forbid) and making a more 'normal' profit instead of the insane amount of free, public money there were going to 'take home' in the first place.
They're ticked off at that, and so are playing games like this. The blame lies with them, plain and simple. Recently, my employer purchased a new property in the city. We saw one that we liked but discovered that it was a designated historic property...we needed to make some serious changes to it in order to fit with our plans, so guess what. We didn't buy it. We bought a different property. That's why guidelines and rules are in place. These guys think they're bigger than the law just because they hang out with mobsters.
Sorry. You're not. And I hope the province/city has some legal grounds to take the building from them and give it to other groups waiting in the wings to redevelop it.

[flar]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

you've got it wrong. they bought a designated historic property and know full well what that means (assuming they are reasonably astute business-people...I'm not a business person and even I know what regulations are in place if I were to purchase a designated building).
They worked out a rule-breaking deal with former mayor DiIanni. The only 'special interest' groups that got involved were those interested in seeing the historic designation adhered to, both at the city and provincial level.

All we have here is a bunch of people who worked out a closed-door, law-breaking deal that would have absolutely fattened their pockets, now being forced to follow the rules (heaven forbid) and making a more 'normal' profit instead of the insane amount of free, public money there were going to 'take home' in the first place.
They're ticked off at that, and so are playing games like this. The blame lies with them, plain and simple. Recently, my employer purchased a new property in the city. We saw one that we liked but discovered that it was a designated historic property...we needed to make some serious changes to it in order to fit with our plans, so guess what. We didn't buy it. We bought a different property. That's why guidelines and rules are in place. These guys think they're bigger than the law just because they hang out with mobsters.
Sorry. You're not. And I hope the province/city has some legal grounds to take the building from them and give it to other groups waiting in the wings to redevelop it.

RTH, you're right on the money with this analysis. HiRise, LIUNA and Dianni are crooks, their collusion to milk public money off this was obvious from the get go. Same goes for the Connaught schemers, I wish these properties were in the hands of serious developers and not people trying to scam public money.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

$24.00 * 60,000 sq foot leasing of Lister Block = $1,440,000 yearly

20 year lease agreement * $1,440,000 = $28,800,000

$23-$25 million minus $7 million from Dalton & The Gang = $16-$18 million of their money to build.

$28 million from the City over 20yrs (a guaranteed tenant who will not go out of business etc) = $10-$12 million profit, no?

[flar]

In reality the financing for the renovation costs will much more complicated than this so interest will have to be factored in, and the money from the city, thru the lease, will also be paid in installments over a 20 year period. So basically you can't just subtract the amount of the lease from the building cost, that's way over simplified.

[DC83]

^^ haha when it comes to me and math, it's NEVER simple!

But at the same time, I find it hard to believe LIUNA would lose money on this project!?

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

These guys think they're bigger than the law just because they hang out with mobsters.
Sorry. You're not. And I hope the province/city has some legal grounds to take the building from them and give it to other groups waiting in the wings to redevelop it.

Who said that they hang out with mobsters? Is it because they are Italian?

I admit that I don't decend from Empire Loyalists myself, but all this prattle of the mob and LIUNA is childish and down right offensive.

Henry Mancinelli built that organization in Canada from the ground up by organizing trades on construction sites with his bicycle back in the '60s. Today you have a bunch of thugs from a local in Toronto that want to take it away and do god know's what with it.

If you feel that you can get this project done the way YOU want it, submit a business plan to the City and get your financing in place.

[raisethehammer]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home

http://www.uncharted.ca/content/view/228/35/

http://www.hamiltoncatch.org/archive...61202liuna.htm

[fastcarsfreedom]

LIUNA has done some great projects in the city, including LIUNA Station, which is a gem. The Lister's demise, while often attributed to LIUNA came about when it fell into the hands of an outfit from Toronto known as Metrus Developments--it was Metrus that kicked the tenants out the building, shut off the services and let the place go to seed. While I'd never dispute that LIUNA could've done a better job keeping the site secured over the years, they're interest has always been redevelopment of the property--and as far as I know, there has never been what anyone would call a long line of investors chomping at the bit to get in there and restore the Lister. Should the Lister ever have gotten to where it is today? Absolutely not. However, as I've stated numerous times in the past--the economic viability of the Lister redevelopment as a commercial/Class A office building was dead in the water in terms of viability as soon as LIUNA lost the opportunity to demolish/rebuild and/or preserve the facade. The floor plates are oddly shaped--the ceiling heights are too low--the truth is if the city ever gets up and leaves, the building is going to be difficult to retenant.

Say what you will about LIUNA--I know there are those that love, and those that love to hate--the truth is the supposed "rescue" of Lister by Dalton and has merrymakers was electoral pandering, and ultimately, meddling in a private business enterprise. I can't help but wonder now if this "rescue" ultimately stripped the development of it's fiscal viability.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home

http://www.uncharted.ca/content/view/228/35/

http://www.hamiltoncatch.org/archive...61202liuna.htm

Great, we have allegations from unanmed sources, disgruntled memebrs of a competing Union and a left wing special interest group. No charges, convictions, inquests, etc.

LIUNA has also been seen with leaders and cabinet ministers from the Provincial and Federal Liberal parties. So I guess we should be calling Dalton, Don Dalton instead.

If you belive this to be fact, you should visit large construction sites across Canada and tell the members that you believe their union dues support organized crime.

[raisethehammer]

what I think is 'fact' or not doesn't matter. You asked "who said that they hang out with mobsters?" I merely answered your question.
I find it funny how nobody from LIUNA Hamilton has sued any of these folks alleging their mob ties.
If someone publically accused me of that, I'd sue them in an instant. Because it's not true...
Back to Lister...there are 2 other groups who have desperately been trying to get their hands on the building for a few years now. They tried to intervene during DiIanni's secret meetings, but to no avail. I recently spoke with one of the principles behind one of the groups and they are convinced that LIUNA won't do this project and are waiting for them to sell.
Yes, LIUNA has done some good projects in town.
That's fine. We're talking about Lister, not LIUNA Station. They seem to be in way over their heads here.

[markbarbera]

I have a huge beef with the way LIUNA is handling Lister. They bought up the property on the cheap, knowing it was a heritage building. They then allowed/enocuraged it to continue to decay and become an eyesore, driving any remaining businesses surrounding it out of business. They created a crisis for an entire city block, but somehow generate sympathy for their self-created plight. By creating the crisis, they put pressure on politicians to do something about it. What do they want them to do? Cut them a big cheque to develop the building they own, then lease it out to another level of government to boot. Guaranteed tenancy with very little capital cost on their part.

The Spec article is just songbird Dreshel being played to see if more cash can be squeezed from the city. There is a pattern of behaviour here. They did the same to the often praised LIUNA centre - whose redevelopment was financed by public grants. Granted, at least they didn't let it rot to create a crisis. What really burns me is the same gang of thugs are doing the exact same manipulation to the Royal Connaught. Look how long it has sat empty now. It is rapidly becoming another eyesore created by their own hands. Five years from now they will play the same game to get cash from various levels of government, while all that time the core will continue to suffer due to the developers' own neglect, this time from a location other than Lister.

Guys, don't even think about using the 'nobody is lining up to buy the place' line, because that's bulls**t. There's no line because LIUNA is not selling. They know they got prime real estate for a song, and they know they are going to be able to develop it on the taxpayer's dime and not have to use their own cash. It is a sweet deal for them. There are other developers that would love to get their hands on the building - I know of at least two parties that would leap on the building should it go up for sale.

I have to agree with fastcarsfreedom, the building is not suitable for class a office space. It should never have been considered for adaptive reuse in this format. It would have been much better suited for residential or hotel space. The city itself identified this years ago when Metrus first walked away from the project. Unfotunatley, this city excells at not following its own advice on such matters, and the organ-grinding LIUNA has monetary and political influence on enough of the council to ensure that sound advice is ignored.

LIUNA may be good at representing their union members (open for debate, but not here please), but they are lousy property developers. Whatever goodwill they had in this city has been squandered with the political maneuvering around Lister. IMO they should be barred from future property development in the city. They are the kind of speculative property developers that have added to downtown Hamilton's decay, and they should not be made to feel welcome anymore.

[markbarbera]

Prediction: Dreshel's column was deliberately timed to set the stage for a newly created Lister redevelopment crisis. Fortunately, a last-minute deal saving the Lister project will be brokered just before the March deadline. Who will be the saviour who brokers the deal? None other than former Mayor Larry DiIanni of course, who just happens to be a local candidate in the next federal election, which most likely will be called very soon after the Lister deal deadline has passed.

Wow, DiIanni couldn't dream of even buying publicity like this, could he? It's not like Dreshel ever writes favourably about him in his column or anything...

[SteelTown]

Ultimately I think down the road a deal will be hammered out. There would be far too many negatives made if a deal wasn't made by March. If it cost an extra $5 million then council will suck it up and approve it, there's too many things on the line if this deal falls apart, redevelop Lister Block, improve King William, fix up an entire block, 9-5 jobs to boost to the area (cafe and restaurants), higher property tax, more revenue, $7 million from Premier Dalton, improve James Street and finally relocate Mohawk College's music and art department to the downtown core.

Mohawk is definitely planning something as you can tell Mohawk is shutting down the portables that the music department uses.

[raisethehammer]

yup...you guys are right.
LIUNA has the city by the throat and since we only have one newpaper in town whose main politics writer is a brown-noser of the old boys club, they'll turn up the heat and as is usually the case, get locals all up in arms if they try to "kill the lister deal by not approving a little more money". You watch - that last sentence might end up being an exact headline.

[DC83]

I always liked the idea of having it hotel/residential.
It's location alone would be perfect for a hotel:
- on King William which is (was) full of 'higer end' restos
- across from Jackson/City Ctr for shopping needs
- steps from Copps/Theater Aquarius
- steps from James N which is gaining quite a name for itself as a cultural district

Why LIUNA insisted on office space is beyond my understanding!?
Well... I can see now after reading the last cpl of comments I guess...
Hopefully LIUNA sells (or is forced to sell) it to someone with interest in Hotels.

[matt602]

Originally Posted by DC83

Why LIUNA insisted on office space is beyond my understanding!?

Probably because of the connections they have in city hall, who will be their main tenant. They probably have connections with other tenants lined up as well. If you look back, residential is not LIUNA's thing at all. My perfect Lister would be main and 2nd floor commercial with all upper floors residential. Pretty much as it was back in it's day (I'm fairly certain floors 1-3 were commercial and some parts above were residential).

I don't think the deal is gonna fall through, but LIUNA is definitely dicking the city around for more cash. The city understands they can't let this one slip, no matter what it costs and LIUNA knows the city is aware of this. As already posted, LIUNA has got Hamilton by the balls and they don't mind twisting.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by matt602

I don't think the deal is gonna fall through, but LIUNA is definitely dicking the city around for more cash. The city understands they can't let this one slip, no matter what it costs and LIUNA knows the city is aware of this. As already posted, LIUNA has got Hamilton by the balls and they don't mind twisting.

I think the city should have thought about this from beginning. It could have been the other way around. When the city agreed to the conditions on the approval, that gave LIUNA the green light. The city holds none of the cards in this deal.

I would also add that ANY developer would be doing the same thing. Their not in it for charity or the public good.

[markbarbera]

This kind of deal is not commonplace, and was not offered to the previous owner of Lister, or to any other building owner in the city. Feel free to cite examples of similar deals. I can't think of any other deal like this.

Any developer would like to make the same kind of deal as LIUNA has managed to swindle out of the city, but no one else can. Why is that?

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by matt602

If you look back, residential is not LIUNA's thing at all.

Other than LIUNA Station and LIUNA Gardens, their developments are mostly senior's homes and community housing, so I wouldn't say residential is not their thing.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

This kind of deal is not commonplace, and was not offered to the previous owner of Lister, or to any other building owner in the city. Feel free to cite examples of similar deals. I can't think of any other deal like this.

Any developer would like to make the same kind of deal as LIUNA has managed to swindle out of the city, but no one else can. Why is that?

don't waste your time looking too hard....this is the most expensive lease rate anywhere in the city of Hamilton.
Apparently, not all developers would do this, and even if they did, i'm still perplexed at the earlier comment on this thread accusing citizens, city councilors or the province of interfering in a private business venture. So, should we be leaving the millionare couple in NYC alone instead of investigating possible slavery and torture just because they were running a 'private business venture'?? Get a grip.