Connaught Tower | 305m | 100 storey | Proposed

[flar]

There are, however, some people who want to live in a condo rather than a house. For instance people who travel a lot or don't want to take care of a yard. And there are young professionals who work in Hamilton (!!) that are attracted to condo living (eg: people at McMaster or the hospitals, and in the next few years, at McMaster Innovation Park). Also look at the demographics: in the coming years Hamilton will have plenty of baby boomers who might want to live in a prestigious condo once their kids are moved out. The condo option is needed in Hamilton or they will continue to move to condos in Burlington or even Dundas, where several condos have risen in the last few years.

I wouldn't focus on commuters to Toronto, Hamilton has never been a great option for that. TO commuters will continue to grow, but there may well be a target market right here in Hamilton.

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by RePinion

There's not a great price difference between condos in Hamilton and somewhere like Brampton or Mississauga.

And that's reason enough right there.

Seriously. For people want to live in a 'city', affordable options are limited.

If this building gets built, I seriously doubt the main market will be Toronto commuters. If this was really the case, they'd probably buy a smaller condo in Toronto, considering this building is supposed to be high end. People who want an urban lifestyle are willing to trade in space for both convenience and a cosmopolitan environment. Commuters are more likely to buy a sprawl house on the mountain/Ancaster/etc or even a nice Victorian in the lower city than into a highrise condo. You may get some commuters choosing to live there just because, let's face it, MCC and other suburban downtowns can't offer the same package. Though, for the most part, I think the kind of people you'd get moving into that building would be working in Hamilton in professional-type jobs. I wouldn't bank on the commuter market to sell this building.

[RePinion]

Is that all we're banking on then - people who want that "urban lifestyle"?

Thus Hamilton will become sort of an "urban wonderland", for people who either can't afford or aren't willing to pay for the "real thing" just an hour down the road? It doesn't seem that likely to me.

There really aren't a lot of "young professionals" in Hamilton. I work everyday with people in professional-type jobs, part of the small and rather intimate community of relatively high-income white collar workers, and most of them are in early middle age and live with families in Stoney Creek, Ancaster, or Dundas. A few live in the Durand; a few in Westdale, etc. These people don't have any real interest in living downtown. In general, they will never live in condos. Hamilton will have to attract a whole new generation of young professionals to build the sort of projects we want. Obviously I don't purport to speak on behalf of this entire segment of Hamilton society; my observations are anecdotal, but I do suspect that they are quite accurate across the board.

I would like to believe that Hamilton has a ton of latent demand which would allow for a real change in its residential dynamic towards denser, more efficient living options and, as a corollary, a revitalized and economically vibrant downtown, but I'm feeling rather pessimistic today and am questioning my excitement from days past. Hopefully it will pass ...

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by flar

There are, however, some people who want to live in a condo rather than a house. For instance people who travel a lot or don't want to take care of a yard. And there are young professionals who work in Hamilton (!!) that are attracted to condo living (eg: people at McMaster or the hospitals, and in the next few years, at McMaster Innovation Park). Also look at the demographics: in the coming years Hamilton will have plenty of baby boomers who might want to live in a prestigious condo once their kids are moved out. The condo option is needed in Hamilton or they will continue to move to condos in Burlington or even Dundas, where several condos have risen in the last few years.

This is what I was talking about when I spoke of people in Hamilton choosing the condo option for "convenience". I don't think that's enough to build a strong market, as, for one, the people who choose this option are often elderly or at least "empty nesters". Convenience is not enough for the average family or even couple to give up the prospect of a nice house with yard, etc. I simply do not believe that most of the people who live in condos in Toronto, Vancouver, etc. live there because they would be in a 600 square foot condo than a 1500 square foot hosue.

As for the condos in Dundas and Burlington, these are largely filled by the demographic I mention above ...

[raisethehammer]

you'd be surprised at the numbers of professionals - young and old- now living in Corktown, Durand, North End, Strathcona, Kirkendall etc....
You'd also be surprised at the price of condos available in these neighbourhoods. more expensive than many homes.
However, with Hamilton house prices steadily climbing and a new focus on smart growth supposedly coming, condos downtown will be an even better option in the years to come.
Many of the units Goldfinger mentions have been built downtown...in fact, virtually all of them other than a handful.
CoreLofts on Bay South was the fastest selling condo project in Ontario the year it was built - 4/5 years ago I think??
5 years from now our downtown housing market will be even more expensive, things will have grown that much more, the harbour and surrounding neighbourhoods will be that much more attractive....the timing might just work out great for Sapphire.
I guess we'll see.
Again, it's way to early to try to figure this stuff out. I'm more worried/hopeful about the Connaught for now.

[Millstone]

No one is going to come to Hamilton to live in a condo when there are so many already available in Mississauga, a much shorter commute to downtown TO.

Well that's a lie. I chose Hamilton because:

- The new condos springing up are cheap, for now
- The city has a ton of character, whereas Missy is an overgrown suburb
- Toronto is too expensive, and I'd need to change jobs
- Hamilton is centrally located in my job between Niagara and Toronto (and London) and I travel a ton by car.
- Hamilton may become 'the place to be' with all these new projects -- we'll see.

I live downtown and work in the suburbs for the most part. There was an article in the Toronto Star about people "like me".

[RePinion]

I think it is the increase in housing prices which will drive up the demand for condos. I just want to be able to fasten on something solid to create a real need for condos, because let's face it, until it's an economic necessity, the vast majority of people will not choose a condo until they have to.

My confidence is buoyed recalling the very respectable increase in Hamilton's housing prices over the last decade. Another 5-10 of comparable or preferably even accelerated increases and condos will genuinely become a serious force in Hamilton's housing market. I know it is not going to happen overnight, though, as much as I would like it ...

[flar]

Originally Posted by RePinion

I would like to believe that Hamilton has a ton of latent demand which would allow for a real change in its residential dynamic towards denser, more efficient living options and, as a corollary, a revitalized and economically vibrant downtown

I agree that the residential dynamic has been focused on suburban homes of late, however that *may* change with the greenbelt legislation. There are a lot of "ifs" surrounding the Places to Grow act, the main one being when we will begin to see its effects. Intensification is one of the desired effects of course. If there is continued demand for single family houses (a good bet) but a lesser supply of new homes, then at some point the cheap houses in Hamilton will no longer be cheap and condos will be more of an option. Stinson could be betting on this scenario.

Hamilton also has a solid history of high density living, other Ontario cities (except Toronto!) could only dream of this kind of density downtown:



Edit: look at all the posts while I wrote this!

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by Millstone

Well that's a lie. I chose Hamilton because:

- The new condos springing up are cheap, for now
- The city has a ton of character, whereas Missy is an overgrown suburb
- Toronto is too expensive, and I'd need to change jobs
- Hamilton is centrally located in my job between Niagara and Toronto (and London) and I travel a ton by car.
- Hamilton may become 'the place to be' with all these new projects -- we'll see.

I live downtown and work in the suburbs for the most part. There was an article in the Toronto Star about people "like me".

Cheap? Hardly. Core Lofts and Chateau Royale were priced only somewhat below comparable units in TO. It's not as though they were several hundred thousand dollars cheaper than comparable TO units or hundreds of square feet larger.

As for your remark about Hamilton having an advantage in terms of character, I agree with you, and that's why I still live here. That being said, it's not as though Hamilton has the sort of architectural character comparable to a Montreal or New York. Our buildings are older than those of Mississauga, etc., and generally of a higher quality, but a great deal of our "heritage" architecture is really banal boring stuff and better architecture can be found in comparably sized American cities. I don't think our architecture is enough to draw the majority of people, but I definitely agree that Hamiltonians have a stronger sense of identity and community, and maybe that's enough.

As for everything else, that's just subjective ...

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by flar

I agree that the residential dynamic has been focused on suburban homes of late, however that *may* change with the greenbelt legislation. There are a lot of "ifs" surrounding the Places to Grow act, the main one being when we will begin to see its effects. Intensification is one of the desired effects of course. If there is continued demand for single family houses (a good bet) but a lesser supply of new homes, then at some point the cheap houses in Hamilton will no longer be cheap and condos will be more of an option. Stinson could be betting on this scenario.

Hamilton also has a solid history of high density living, other Ontario cities (except Toronto!) could only dream of this kind of density downtown:



Edit: look at all the posts while I wrote this!

This is a good point. It's stuff like decreased availabilty of new homes which will drive the need for densification. Thank god for the greenbelt and the fetters it will place on new home development in the Hamilton area. So long as new homes are being built at a steady pace, housing prices remain relatively stable and there is no need to seek out alternative property options such as co-ops and condos.

I don't think lifestyle choice is enough, though. It's gotta be something solidly economic. Otherwise we're just deluding ourselves ...

[RePinion]

Sorry, didn't mean to quote the pic ...

[raisethehammer]

we actually do have some fab architecture....more importantly is the architecture or design of our streets. Streetwalls of 3-4 storey mixed-use buildings. Sure, many are brick or stone and not overly ornate, but they are places that feel comfortable and have character.
Some of our buildings are downright gorgeous...a handful of others would be once fixed up.
Gore Park and it's surrounding streetscape could be one of the greatest public gathering/dining/entertaining/living spots in the entire country if we fix it up properly.
Hamilton certainly has that going for it...really, our downtown streets are similar in design and detail to those in Toronto. Neither city was graced with the great architecture as Montreal or Boston will present in almost every neighbourhood in buildings both expensive and cheap.
Our architecture is more simple, but very urban and cohesive.

[WhipperSnapper]

draw away ... now added to the database

[RePinion]

^ I certainly don't deny that Hamilton has some great architecture. I love the old buildings in this city. I take pride in the one's that are still beautiful and see a ton of potential in those which have been neglected.

But it's not as though Hamilton is a trove of veritable architectural treasures like Dresden, or Bath.

I just don't think that what we've got is that much of an attraction for the average person who doesn't already live here and have a real connection to the feel of this city ....

[HAMRetrofit]

Pure selfish economic property speculation will sell units in this condo. Persons from around the world who invest in Central Ontario real estate will be buying into this project. Low prices with the promise of growth are what will sell units. Hamilton is in a solid market for this development, and can be categorized the same way as MCC, Brampton, and Pickering. However, it offers all the amenities of an actual city like Toronto with a top caliber University and Health Care Facilities.

The macro real estate trends need to be looked at:

people moving into the city
people are looking for modern accommodations
demographics are shifting towards a metropolitan lifestyle
young adults are beginning families later or not at all
divorce is at an all time high reducing demand for single detached homes
boomers are aging and looking for an easier lifestyle

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by RePinion

Cheap? Hardly. Core Lofts and Chateau Royale were priced only somewhat below comparable units in TO. It's not as though they were several hundred thousand dollars cheaper than comparable TO units or hundreds of square feet larger.

As for your remark about Hamilton having an advantage in terms of character, I agree with you, and that's why I still live here. That being said, it's not as though Hamilton has the sort of architectural character comparable to a Montreal or New York. Our buildings are older than those of Mississauga, etc., and generally of a higher quality, but a great deal of our "heritage" architecture is really banal boring stuff and better architecture can be found in comparably sized American cities. I don't think our architecture is enough to draw the majority of people, but I definitely agree that Hamiltonians have a stronger sense of identity and community, and maybe that's enough.

As for everything else, that's just subjective ...

Well, from my experience, it is cheaper to buy in downtown Hamilton than it is to buy in downtown TO. Stinson wants to price his new units at $129,900 in the Connaught and that's about right. Most downtown units in TO start in the 200s and the sky's the limit.

[RePinion]

I really don't want to associate myself with the camp who thinks that nothing good will ever come for this city and that we might as well stick with our one-way streets and suburban mindset and forget about any sort of revitalization of the lower city. I can feel the change of attitude and growing optimism in this city, as well as the increase in urban awareness.

I can't tell you how excited I was when Stinson first announced the Connaught project and especially after hearing the radio interview. I definitely want this project to succeed.

But the further I get from that date, the sillier Stinson's idea seems. Maybe I'm just getting too conservative in my thinking in my old age, but I really expected Hamilton's downtown to recover through incremental change. A few more mid-sized condo projects here, some increased retail there, lowered vacancy rates, increasing income levels, etc, all at a steadily quickening pace. But one huge 80 storey tower all of a sudden? There just hasn't been anything to trigger something this dramatic. Maybe there's just been so much latent demand that I've been deaf to ...

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by Millstone

Well, from my experience, it is cheaper to buy in downtown Hamilton than it is to buy in downtown TO. Stinson wants to price his new units at $129,900 in the Connaught and that's about right. Most downtown units in TO start in the 200s and the sky's the limit.

Note that $129k was for "very compact" units in the Connaught. You can buy a small new condo in TO, or an average size older condo (usually converted from large older apartment blocks), for often well below $175k.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into an argument. I'm not here trying to prove that there's absolutely no reason to build condos in Hamilton and that our market can't be competitive. I just don't see a total shift in our urban dynamic towards a hyper densified downtown, at least not in the very near future.

[flar]

I don't think anyone actually thinks there will be an 80 floor supertall in Hamilton, but I do think something like 50 storeys is a possibility. Most importantly, a quality building. The original Connaught redevelopment had two 20-25 storey buildings planned for the site. The London Taphouse reno on the southwest corner of the block reduced the plan to one tower.