Third Harbour Crossing

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

2) City planning is needed. Do not allow single family homes, have higher density homes, and condos. Then, the demand for a LRT would exist, and be viable.

You aren't seriously implying it should be a criminal act to built a single family detached home in Halifax are you?

Just what we need - to have the peninsula crammed with commie blocks.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by pblaauw

Wikipedia article on the history on Georges Island.

Well, there you go. Build entry/exit ramps off the bridge and hey presto, a usable national historic site!!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You aren't seriously implying it should be a criminal act to built a single family detached home in Halifax are you?

Just what we need - to have the peninsula crammed with commie blocks.

Yeah, I just roll my eyes when I read comments like that...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Well, there you go. Build entry/exit ramps off the bridge and hey presto, a usable national historic site!!

Ha! That thought crossed my mind as well. Might even work except for the parking situation...

[Aya_Akai]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You aren't seriously implying it should be a criminal act to built a single family detached home in Halifax are you?

Just what we need - to have the peninsula crammed with commie blocks.

That's how I feel about Mount Royale... just feels like a modernized version of block style apartments.. imagining that everywhere? *cringe*

[pblaauw]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Well, there you go. Build entry/exit ramps off the bridge and hey presto, a usable national historic site!!

The infrastructure required for that would destroy the island. But anyway.

[halifaxboyns]

I wanted to follow up my previous post and now that I have a few minutes to sit in my comfy chair with a glass of wine, here it is. First, I'm going to say comments like outlawing single family houses; really doesn't work for me. As I mentioned earlier; I do support a 3rd link but I would prefer to see a tunnel rather than a bridge. I also support the idea of the crossing continuing over the Arm and connecting up with NW Arm Drive.

I've noticed a number of posts about concerns regarding Council going for it; South End Residents and costs. I tried to comment on costs about something once before and it showed my lack of understanding - so I'll try to stay away from it. As for the other two (Council/South End Residents) I think it comes down to planning goals.

One of the goals that Council has been pushing is for greater intensification of the Regional Centre (particularly the Peninsula). Part of that strategy is creating a more pedestrian friendly environment. This is where broad based planning that understands the relationship of transportation to zoning comes into play. This is also where some skillful discussions with the port and CN can help get some money (perhaps). As planners, we are skillful negotiators (for the most part). I will explain...

Agree with some previous posts - the crossing needs to provide a separate transit tunnel system for a future LRT (and I would suggest buses - like Seattle's transit tunnel). But I've met some folks with CN over the years in Halifax that tell me some of the issues they have with the Dartmouth line and shunting cars from the Autoport to the mainline. So why not offer up the opportunity for one additional tunnel over to the port for CN to change they way they shunt trains? Negotiate on how it could happen - then they may only need the Dartmouth line as far as Burnside. This could open up the railyard in DT Dartmouth and areas along the way - then as part of the negotiation of the costs of the tunnel; landswap for $. This way, HRM gets the railyard in Dartmouth. Also make sure that the port has direct access to and from the tunnel for goods movement both over to Woodside or the NW Arm. Then the Port could help with some of the costs too. This would benefit downtown - no more trucks going through downtown (which helps planning goals of a more pedestrian focused Regional Centre).

The other thing that needs to happen (we've beaten this horse to death) is detailed planning for future rapid transit. The City is growing - we need to start planning for LRTs now. What routes? Where does it go? Portland is the busiest corridor for transit - so that being the first LRT is a no brainer. But also the routes into Fairview/Clayton Park; Dartmouth and Bedford/Sackville.

The next thing is a detailed planning study of servicing capacities for all the vacant land on the Mainland around Williams and Colpitt Lake that are not inside the Provincial Park. Same thing for Eastern Passage and Cole Harbour and then what transportation connections can occur - can this develop at higher densities and have direct connection to the future LRT system? I've talked about a system of streetcars on the Peninsula and in Dartmouth - use that also as part of the transit system. The one I suggested that ends on Robie Street at SMU - extend it to the Mainland. Then (depending on servicing capacities) you can force upgrades or if it can accommodate higher densities - build a series of 'villages' along the extension of the streetcar line. Thus you achieve higher density development in the greenfield area - you don't have to get rid of all low density; but could limit it because of proximity to streetcar/LRT. One idea might be to look at the Calgary West Campus development as an inspiration - there is no low density in it at all.

In terms of costs and tolls, I can't see how the tolls couldn't go up given the potential for costs. But (and I could be wrong) wouldn't the NW Arm tunnel portion also bring in money too? Was that factored into some of the cost discussion that has occurred earlier?

Ultimately for me; one of my mentors put it best - City building isn't cheap. So part of the discussion ahead will have to be about building partnerships with the Port, CN (if my idea worked) and getting additional $ from the feds and the Province.

[MonctonRad]

Excellent post.

Occasionally, a "big fix" solution is necessary, especially if there is the potential for wide ranging benefits for the whole municipality. A well planned third crossing is just such a project (or mega project).

Personally, I wonder about relocating Halterm off the peninsula as part of this big fix. It would open up the rail cut for commuter rail and would provide oodles of land for development right on the harbour front near the cruise ship terminal.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Excellent post.

Occasionally, a "big fix" solution is necessary, especially if there is the potential for wide ranging benefits for the whole municipality. A well planned third crossing is just such a project (or mega project).

Personally, I wonder about relocating Halterm off the peninsula as part of this big fix. It would open up the rail cut for commuter rail and would provide oodles of land for development right on the harbour front near the cruise ship terminal.

Wright's Cove was considered for a container terminal but the possibilty of unexploded ordnance was an issue.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I wanted to follow up my previous post and now that I have a few minutes to sit in my comfy chair with a glass of wine, here it is. First, I'm going to say comments like outlawing single family houses; really doesn't work for me. As I mentioned earlier; I do support a 3rd link but I would prefer to see a tunnel rather than a bridge. I also support the idea of the crossing continuing over the Arm and connecting up with NW Arm Drive.

I've noticed a number of posts about concerns regarding Council going for it; South End Residents and costs. I tried to comment on costs about something once before and it showed my lack of understanding - so I'll try to stay away from it. As for the other two (Council/South End Residents) I think it comes down to planning goals.

One of the goals that Council has been pushing is for greater intensification of the Regional Centre (particularly the Peninsula). Part of that strategy is creating a more pedestrian friendly environment. This is where broad based planning that understands the relationship of transportation to zoning comes into play. This is also where some skillful discussions with the port and CN can help get some money (perhaps). As planners, we are skillful negotiators (for the most part). I will explain...

Agree with some previous posts - the crossing needs to provide a separate transit tunnel system for a future LRT (and I would suggest buses - like Seattle's transit tunnel). But I've met some folks with CN over the years in Halifax that tell me some of the issues they have with the Dartmouth line and shunting cars from the Autoport to the mainline. So why not offer up the opportunity for one additional tunnel over to the port for CN to change they way they shunt trains? Negotiate on how it could happen - then they may only need the Dartmouth line as far as Burnside. This could open up the railyard in DT Dartmouth and areas along the way - then as part of the negotiation of the costs of the tunnel; landswap for $. This way, HRM gets the railyard in Dartmouth. Also make sure that the port has direct access to and from the tunnel for goods movement both over to Woodside or the NW Arm. Then the Port could help with some of the costs too. This would benefit downtown - no more trucks going through downtown (which helps planning goals of a more pedestrian focused Regional Centre).

The other thing that needs to happen (we've beaten this horse to death) is detailed planning for future rapid transit. The City is growing - we need to start planning for LRTs now. What routes? Where does it go? Portland is the busiest corridor for transit - so that being the first LRT is a no brainer. But also the routes into Fairview/Clayton Park; Dartmouth and Bedford/Sackville.

The next thing is a detailed planning study of servicing capacities for all the vacant land on the Mainland around Williams and Colpitt Lake that are not inside the Provincial Park. Same thing for Eastern Passage and Cole Harbour and then what transportation connections can occur - can this develop at higher densities and have direct connection to the future LRT system? I've talked about a system of streetcars on the Peninsula and in Dartmouth - use that also as part of the transit system. The one I suggested that ends on Robie Street at SMU - extend it to the Mainland. Then (depending on servicing capacities) you can force upgrades or if it can accommodate higher densities - build a series of 'villages' along the extension of the streetcar line. Thus you achieve higher density development in the greenfield area - you don't have to get rid of all low density; but could limit it because of proximity to streetcar/LRT. One idea might be to look at the Calgary West Campus development as an inspiration - there is no low density in it at all.

In terms of costs and tolls, I can't see how the tolls couldn't go up given the potential for costs. But (and I could be wrong) wouldn't the NW Arm tunnel portion also bring in money too? Was that factored into some of the cost discussion that has occurred earlier?

Ultimately for me; one of my mentors put it best - City building isn't cheap. So part of the discussion ahead will have to be about building partnerships with the Port, CN (if my idea worked) and getting additional $ from the feds and the Province.

Some really creative thinking here. Our city planning office needs to look at hiring some talent from places such as... Calgary, for example.

Really, I think you could do some good work here.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Some really creative thinking here. Our city planning office needs to look at hiring some talent from places such as... Calgary, for example.

Really, I think you could do some good work here.

Appreciate that - not going to comment in the open forum, but it's unlikely to happen. Unless of course hell froze over...

I do appreciate the compliments; I don't like slamming other planners but I find folks who have a geography base in their learning (like me) have the ability to look bigger picture; where as folks who did specifically planning are more fine grain. I know I've learned a lot more in big picture thinking thanks to working with Rollin Stanley; whose ability to think big picture even surprises me.

I go back to what I said in other posts; one of my mentors (Paul Bedford) has said it constantly - City building isn't easy and it isn't cheap. Look at Toronto and the fact they haven't invested in Transit for years!

In this case, I think I've layed out a pretty good stance to deal with the concern of sprawl or that this might lend to it. I don't think I would want Wright's Cove to be a Container terminal; but I've always thought expanding the autoport and taking land over there for a bigger container terminal would be good if we could dredge the channel next to it to handle big container ships.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Appreciate that - not going to comment in the open forum, but it's unlikely to happen. Unless of course hell froze over...
I don't think I would want Wright's Cove to be a Container terminal; but I've always thought expanding the autoport and taking land over there for a bigger container terminal would be good if we could dredge the channel next to it to handle big container ships.

Wright's Cove is away from major developed areas and away from downtown Dartmouth. It already has the gypsum export terminal and is close to the large
new Armour trucking/warehousing terminal.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Wright's Cove is away from major developed areas and away from downtown Dartmouth. It already has the gypsum export terminal and is close to the large
new Armour trucking/warehousing terminal.

Yes if you look at part of the inner Wright Cove area - it's under going redevelopment with that area near Windmill Road. So I'm not sure I'd want a 24/7 container port operating next to an up and coming residential/mixed use area. If that had not developed - I would agree it's a good spot. But now...not so much (IMO).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Yes if you look at part of the inner Wright Cove area - it's under going redevelopment with that area near Windmill Road. So I'm not sure I'd want a 24/7 container port operating next to an up and coming residential/mixed use area. If that had not developed - I would agree it's a good spot. But now...not so much (IMO).

Not to mention that with current configurations it would also require significant investment in rail and highway infrastructure to support it.

Don't know what's going to happen to all that land currently taken up by the Imperial Oil refinery once it's gone, but I would think that would be a better location, if in fact Halterm were intending to relocate.

[David1gray]

You've also got to get those bigger boats under the bridges. Halifax often promotes itself as being able to host large post-panamax ships.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Appreciate that - not going to comment in the open forum, but it's unlikely to happen. Unless of course hell froze over...

I do appreciate the compliments; I don't like slamming other planners but I find folks who have a geography base in their learning (like me) have the ability to look bigger picture; where as folks who did specifically planning are more fine grain. I know I've learned a lot more in big picture thinking thanks to working with Rollin Stanley; whose ability to think big picture even surprises me.

I go back to what I said in other posts; one of my mentors (Paul Bedford) has said it constantly - City building isn't easy and it isn't cheap. Look at Toronto and the fact they haven't invested in Transit for years!

In this case, I think I've layed out a pretty good stance to deal with the concern of sprawl or that this might lend to it. I don't think I would want Wright's Cove to be a Container terminal; but I've always thought expanding the autoport and taking land over there for a bigger container terminal would be good if we could dredge the channel next to it to handle big container ships.

Hey, it's happened before...



Big-picture thinking is a valuable tool to have in your kit, and one that I find surprisingly few people in all careers and trades seem to have.

I feel that you will do well wherever you work, but the insight and energy that you devote to the Halifax portion of this website tells me that you have more than a passing interest in seeing this area be the best it can be, which I believe would be an asset to the city in the long run. It's our loss really.

Keep fighting the good fight!

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Don't know what's going to happen to all that land currently taken up by the Imperial Oil refinery once it's gone, but I would think that would be a better location, if in fact Halterm were intending to relocate.

That's where I could see it going. Rail connection and a highway right there. Also might reduce the cost of cleaning up the refinery lands if you're just going to put another industrial use on top of it.

I really have no concept of how much it would cost to move a port (i.e. is it even within the realm of possibility?). Anyone have any more insight?

[Keith P.]

The entire Halterm situation is one that needs examination.

There is simply not enough shipping business coming to Halifax right now to justify 2 container piers. It is largely dependent upon rail service and CN will not run trains with no cargo to put on them. While they say they would improve service should the demand arise, it really is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. The ship traffic will not increase to any extent with the rail connections as they are now.

So, one could easily fold Halterm into Ceres and be done with it. In fact, I had seen plans from 20 years ago of a proposal to use the Halterm site for a marina/residential redevelopment that was quite impressive. However, Halterm has owners who do not want to move, and the Port Authority receives rent that they do not want to place at risk.

It should be noted that even if Halterm were to relocate, you still would need the rail cut for passenger service, unless you would choose to build a new terminal for that elsewhere.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The entire Halterm situation is one that needs examination.

There is simply not enough shipping business coming to Halifax right now to justify 2 container piers. It is largely dependent upon rail service and CN will not run trains with no cargo to put on them. While they say they would improve service should the demand arise, it really is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. The ship traffic will not increase to any extent with the rail connections as they are now.

So, one could easily fold Halterm into Ceres and be done with it. In fact, I had seen plans from 20 years ago of a proposal to use the Halterm site for a marina/residential redevelopment that was quite impressive. However, Halterm has owners who do not want to move, and the Port Authority receives rent that they do not want to place at risk.

It should be noted that even if Halterm were to relocate, you still would need the rail cut for passenger service, unless you would choose to build a new terminal for that elsewhere.

If you follow the direction of the trend of passenger rail service in and out of Halifax, there may not be a need to keep the rail cut for that alone, much longer. Unfortunately.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Not to mention that with current configurations it would also require significant investment in rail and highway infrastructure to support it.

Don't know what's going to happen to all that land currently taken up by the Imperial Oil refinery once it's gone, but I would think that would be a better location, if in fact Halterm were intending to relocate.

Actually, I think the investment from the rail side would be rather minimal. There is already a rail line not too far from there to the gypsum terminal; so I think that would be covered off. The main concern would be proximity to a redeveloping area. I suspect it might not be compatible.

Esso refinery might work - I also thought the area next to the Autoport would be good (right below Main Road and Labrador Ave intersection).

Keith makes an interesting point - I seem to recall seeing a study on turning Halterm into a residential community too (now that would be a tax cash cow for the city given the land value). I would think that you would keep the rail cut open in the event that even if via service dried up; there would be a need for regional rail of some kind. Or you could use it for Halifax's version of the 'high line' - except it would be more like a low line (haha).

Keith's comment about CN rail makes my big picture thinking kick into economic development mode and I would want to sit down with both CN and the two container terminals and start having a discussion about growing business. What are the risks? How can the City help mitigate those risks for a certain period to help drum up business? For example - if CN won't increase train capacity; but it's needed to drum up business - could HRM (with help from the Province) float a subsidy for a couple of years as a means to help offset the risk to CN? Then - working together, take that news out to the shipping industry and see if that gets more traffic? This way you are helping CN mitigate the risks of losses for the additional trains and you may be able to get more traffic from the increased rail schedule. If you don't; then you just end the subsidy and CN drops the schedule back to what it was.

The emphasis in my way of thinking is cooperative risk taking. You never know unless you try - which is the opposite attitude to what (in general) seems to be the attitude of the maritimes which is "we have no money so don't bother". I don't believe that - the resources are there. Just have to partner with people to help mitigate risks.

I'd also add that if the rail service is something that we need to support for tourism; then perhaps that's yet another conversation to be had. I've yet to see any advertising for the Ocean and I've taken it twice - it's lovely. So was the Bras D'or tourist train. So perhaps there would be a way to float some $ to Via to help advertise this train elsewhere?