Many cities are losing inhabitants. Better to manage decline than try to stop it

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by lio45

Cheaper to bring it from Buffalo NY than from overseas, no? (For the same end result...)

I live in a city whose biggest tourist attraction features a ceiling from a Venetian palace. One of the three castles here also bolsters its castle cred by having a great hall imported from an English manor house. One of the churches has altar pieces from a 17th Century Spanish cathedral.

We're all about shipping a bit of Europe over in the cargo hold here. What's a bit more?

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by lio45

A bit of perspective...

Now in a context where you have a bunch of actual medieval and Renaissance buildings around why would anyone give a crap about a church from the 1870s? That's not a heritage building. It's brand effing new. The city has plenty of heritage buildings, listed and protected, but that church was far from being on that list.

That's the mindset that justified replacing so much of America's history and character with parking lots. You'd think Europeans would know better after watching us.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

That's the mindset that justified replacing so much of America's history and character with parking lots. You'd think Europeans would know better after watching us.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

There are tons of interesting places in the world. And yet the world is worse off if but a few of them should go.

I used to think like that, and as a heritage lover was regularly horrified by NYC construction when following SSP links to newyorkyimby, until people made me realize that it's a living city, and the buildings I like so much replaced other buildings in the past, etc.

You can't expect new construction to completely stop, so eventually you're going to have to accept to maybe get rid of some buildings once in a while. It's inevitable.

Ideally, you'll be totally keeping the best representatives of each era, and then some.

Within our lifetimes, we'll see brutalist architecture come down (it's already been happening) and other things built.

Eventually we'll see blue glass condo towers come down, too.

But the best we can hope for is that the nicer examples will be kept and treasured as architectural heritage -- hoping that ALL of them will is just unrealistic. New buildings will continue to be built, and we'll need to make room for them.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Chef

Abandoned churches can make good night clubs or live music venues. They usually have a built in stage and good acoustics.

Not to mention horny housewives.

[JManc]

Dismantling a stone cathedral, putting it on ships and reconstructing it in a new city would be prohibitively expensive. Still, I question the need to demo such a historic structure. It's not like it was going anywhere and probably would have lasted centuries with minimal maintenance.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

This is what the Socialist mayor said to justify himself (I'm translating in English). The level of hypocrisy is staggering, given that the municipality purposely left the church to deteriorate for years before claiming it was too late to save it, and never seriously studied other plans to restore the church as the art critics and journalist who interviewed the mayor explained in some long articles he wrote before and during 2013 in La Tribune de l'Art.

Imo this is only partially the mayor's fault. The church should have been designated a National historic landmark and prevented from being demolished by the national government. If a building is never landmarked and the people in the country are so apathetic and are unwilling to preserve their own culture, its fair game.

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by lio45

But the best we can hope for is that the nicer examples will be kept and treasured as architectural heritage -- hoping that ALL of them will is just unrealistic. New buildings will continue to be built, and we'll need to make room for them.

On an intellectual level I agree with you, and it's not as though France is exactly hurting for historic landmarks. On a visceral level though, I find the thought of demolishing something that exquisite, featuring so much handcrafted hard work, to be repellant.

Originally Posted by JManc

Dismantling a stone cathedral, putting it on ships and reconstructing it in a new city would be prohibitively expensive. Still, I question the need to demo such a historic structure. It's not like it was going anywhere and probably would have lasted centuries with minimal maintenance.

There's some city in Florida whose name escapes me at the moment, which boasts an entire monastery that was sent over from Europe, and Lake Havasu City, Arizona of course, features the original London Bridge. Nevertheless, I know what you're saying. Being able to spend lavishly on pet projects, with money not being an object, was one of the only good things about Gilded Age robber barons... which incidentally, is how my city ended up with that Venetian ceiling and great hall.

[Ryanrule]

we have such rich people now, but they buy mega yachts and hang out in tax evasion countries.

[LouisianaRush]

Originally Posted by kcexpress69

I still believe there's hope for some of the bigger cities such as Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland, and Baltimore.

Baltimore's population is growing. The city's population is larger now than it was in 2010.

[ThePhun1]

Given the events of the last 2 months, I don't expect that to continue.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Gantz

Imo this is only partially the mayor's fault. The church should have been designated a National historic landmark and prevented from being demolished by the national government. If a building is never landmarked and the people in the country are so apathetic and are unwilling to preserve their own culture, its fair game.

As a rule of thumb, recent buildings aren't designated national historic landmarks unless something really special happened in them.

The place is full of true heritage buildings, so yes, the people will seem apathetic if you judge them by the same yardstick as places where built heritage is super scarce. I have noticed that in Charlotte, the First Presbytarian Church (200 W Trade St) from ~1860 has landmark status. If the city had tons of buildings much older than that, and bunches of medieval and Renaissance buildings already listed as landmarks, that EXACT same church probably wouldn't be considered historic at all.

It would be really stupid for Charlotte to tear down that church. It's been there for most of the lifetime of the city, for chrissakes. Proportionally-speaking, looking at the spread of currently existing built heritage in Abbeville, the demo we're talking about is like Charlotte demolishing a 1960s-era church. Would you guys be up in arms about that, seriously?

[stax]

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

Given the events of the last 2 months, I don't expect that to continue.

Why is that? Most of the city wasn't affected at all. I understand what you're saying from an optics standpoint, but I don't know if anyone moving to Baltimore has rose-colored glasses about the type of city it is. Warts and all, it's still an awesome city, with great bones, and direct connectivity to every major city on the East Coast. Being a cheaper alternative to DC doesn't hurt either.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

On an intellectual level I agree with you, and it's not as though France is exactly hurting for historic landmarks. On a visceral level though, I find the thought of demolishing something that exquisite, featuring so much handcrafted hard work, to be repellant.

Out of curiosity, would you find the idea of demolishing the Cinderella castle in Bay Lake, FL, repellant?

(It was built in 1971 and believe it or not, the apathetic people of the USA have not yet given that building the national historic landmark status, despite its extremely high level of architectural detail!!!)


Just discussing, here...

[brickell]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

There's some city in Florida whose name escapes me at the moment, which boasts an entire monastery that was sent over from Europe

http://www.spanishmonastery.com/
In North Miami Beach. The city. Not the beach. And for exactly the reasons you stated.

Construction of the Monastery of St. Bernard de Clairvaux was begun in the year 1133 AD in Sacramenia, near Segovia in northern Spain. Completed eight years later in 1141, the Monastery was dedicated to the Blessed Mother and was originally named ‘The Monastery of Our Lady, Queen of the Angels.’ Upon the canonization of Bernard of Clairvaux in 1174, the Monastery was renamed in his honor. A Cistercian monk and mystic, the founder and abbot of the Abbey of Clairvaux, Bernard was one of the most influential church leaders of his time. Cistercian monks occupied the Monastery for nearly 700 years. After a social revolution in the 1830's, the Monastery’s Cloisters were seized, sold, and converted into a granary and stable.



In 1925, William Randolph Hearst purchased the Cloisters and the Monastery's outbuildings. The structures were dismantled stone by stone, bound with protective hay, packed in more than 11,000 wooden crates, numbered for identification and shipped to the United States. Soon after the shipment arrived, Hearst's financial problems forced most of his collection to be sold at auction. The massive crates remained in a warehouse in Brooklyn, New York, for 26 years. One year after Hearst’s' death in 1952, they were purchased by two entrepreneurs for use as a tourist attraction. It took 19 months and the equivalent of nearly $20 million dollars (in today’s currency) to put the Monastery back together. In 1953 Time magazine called it “the biggest jigsaw puzzle in history.”



In 1964, Colonel Robert Pentland, Jr, who was a multimillionaire banker, philanthropist and benefactor of many Episcopal churches, purchased the Cloisters and presented them to the Bishop of Florida. Today the parish Church of St. Bernard de Clairvaux is an active and growing congregation in the Episcopal Diocese of Southeast Florida. Services are held on Sundays and weekdays in both English and Spanish.

[LouisianaRush]

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

Given the events of the last 2 months, I don't expect that to continue.

According to the Baltimore Business Journal, home sales were up 17% in the month of may compared to 2014 and home prices are up 9.2%. It was the strongest month since 2006. So far the real estate market is still going strong. The couple of neighborhoods on the west side of town where the incident happened may be different story.

[tammantaik]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

[/img]

Out of more than 40,000 churches in France, perhaps one-quarter of them could be in danger of demolition in this century ...

In view of less and less people believing in either church and/or GOD, this seems completely justified.
If a building is useless, why keeping it?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by tammantaik

In view of less and less people believing in either church and/or GOD, this seems completely justified.
If a building is useless, why keeping it?

Heritage value? Architectural beauty? No?


The Pyramids of Egypt are "useless", sure... but I don't think humanity is currently land-starved critically enough that we should get rid of them to make room for... something else, whatever it is.

In fact the Pyramids' only useful modern use is to draw tourists -- but then the exact same thing could be said of France's vast medieval assortment of awesome churches even from a thoroughly agnostic point of view.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by brickell

http://www.spanishmonastery.com/
In North Miami Beach. The city. Not the beach. And for exactly the reasons you stated.

Fascinating.

If 100% correctly reassembled this is IMO a valid candidate for "oldest building in the Americas". The building is from 1141 AD... of course, it was restored, altered, (moved), etc. since, but then again, basically no buildings from that era haven't been somewhat touched up over the centuries.

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by stax

Why is that? Most of the city wasn't affected at all. I understand what you're saying from an optics standpoint, but I don't know if anyone moving to Baltimore has rose-colored glasses about the type of city it is. Warts and all, it's still an awesome city, with great bones, and direct connectivity to every major city on the East Coast. Being a cheaper alternative to DC doesn't hurt either.

Because people's perceptions are formed by what they're exposed to (media or otherwise, such as research). I'm sure the people moving to Baltimore last month had already been in the process of doing so for some time and couldn't or wouldn't back out even after seeing what happened there during the most recent riots. Some of them may keep a keen eye on it and be on the first moving truck out if the perception worsens.

If you don't believe me, look at what's happened to Detroit in the last 45 and especially 15 years.