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  #1  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2016, 12:53 AM
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Brunette Interchange and United Boulevard Connector

Re: Proposed new Brunette interchange at Hwy 1...

No schematics yet, but here are the details of the 3 three design options:

Option A: Brunette Interchange with Separate Municipal Connections and United Blvd. Connection – The main crossing of Highway 1 is separated into two corridors – a two-lane corridor for local traffic and a four-lane corridor for regional and provincial traffic.

Option B: Blue Mountain Interchange with United Blvd. Connection – This option extends Blue Mountain St. over Highway 1 to United Blvd. Interchanges become the main access to Highway 1.

Option C: Blue Mountain Interchange with Braid Industrial Area Connector – The direct connection between United Blvd. and Brunette is replaced by a two-lane connection from Blue Mountain St. to Columbia St. via a new connector with a two lane tunnel under the rail lines and Brunette River.
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  #2  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2016, 3:24 AM
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Brunette Interchange guess work

Thanks Stingray2004 for sharing. Since the other day I've been trying my best to understand the various options presented. As an aid to myself I've made up some maps to try and visualize what they are proposing. Would be a lot easier if they just released their concepts from the start. Also with the reworked ramps to east columbia from the new pattullo bridge and this project it seems we are slowly getting the NFPR delivered piece by piece.
Option A Guess
Brunette Option A Guess by mullux, on Flickr
Option C Guess
Brunette Option C guess by mullux, on Flickr
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  #3  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2016, 11:21 PM
red-paladin red-paladin is offline
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I moved the related posts from the Metro Van Infrastructure thread to this one.

Also, a website has been created for the interchange portion of the project: http://engage.gov.bc.ca/brunetteinterchange/
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  #4  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 12:24 AM
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Article in The Record: "Brunette changes will impact New Westminster". An interesting quote from Mayor Cote:
“I think residents will potentially see some options that might provide some relief to some of the transportation challenges we see, but I think there is going to be items in these options that are going to create significant concern for residents,” he said. “I think it’s important for residents across the city, particularly residents in the Sapperton neighbourhood, to pay close attention to this and have a good look. I think their input is definitely going to be important in this process.”
I don't like how this consultation is setup. Full information isn't going to be available until the day before the consultation. Generally people are not going to be informed. I worry that the provincial government will try to ram this through. I'm sure that they are trying to "learn" based on their experience with the UBE. It would be great if someone could post those resources for comparison. There are some good blog posts with diagrams at https://voony.wordpress.com/category/united-boulevard.
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Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickvug View Post
Article in The Record: "Brunette changes will impact New Westminster". An interesting quote from Mayor Cote:
“I think residents will potentially see some options that might provide some relief to some of the transportation challenges we see, but I think there is going to be items in these options that are going to create significant concern for residents,” he said. “I think it’s important for residents across the city, particularly residents in the Sapperton neighbourhood, to pay close attention to this and have a good look. I think their input is definitely going to be important in this process.”
I don't like how this consultation is setup. Full information isn't going to be available until the day before the consultation. Generally people are not going to be informed. I worry that the provincial government will try to ram this through. I'm sure that they are trying to "learn" based on their experience with the UBE. It would be great if someone could post those resources for comparison. There are some good blog posts with diagrams at https://voony.wordpress.com/category/united-boulevard.
To be fair, the City of New West has a history of scuttling things which are important to the region. Why do you think they had to repair the Patullo Bridge just to keep it standing while a replacement is being built?

New West got in the way at every opportunity. Then there's United Blvd.
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  #6  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 5:09 AM
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It is well past time for the province to ram this kind of project through. Nimbyminster just holds the area back at every opportunity when it comes to road transportation.

Either way, there's no way that Sapperton Green (land around Braid station) can go ahead without some massive improvements to the road network immediately surrounding it.
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  #7  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 6:47 AM
ilikeredheads ilikeredheads is offline
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lol nimbyminster

this is the same city that tries to push for a one lane bridge replacement between Braid and United blvd. A single lane, not 1 lane each direction, but just 1 lane. Do they still think they live in the 1800s?
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  #8  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 8:47 AM
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I am no fan of New Westminster's city government, but this old knock on the city doesn't actually make complete sense. Like it or not, New West (like central Vancouver and the City of North Van) is geographically different from most other municipalities.

But, the point is this: the infrastructure New West rejects doesn't fly anywhere else either. Just considering roads: there has been no major roadway expansions or new routes rammed through standing neighbourhoods anywhere in the region; not in Burnaby, Surrey, Richmond, or anywhere else. In all of those places there is room to route things (like the SFPR, Hwy1, the Alex Fraser Bridge, . . . ) through industrial or unused land. In those places corridors are already established and their expansion happens within them.

New West's rejections are usually tied to incomplete projects that don't carry all the traffic from and to where it needs to go. This usually means a money issue. Who can blame a city trying to makeover its downtown from rejecting the NSPR unless it were separated so it didn't contradict what the city wants to be. Tunnel it, along with the rail lines, they would accept that eventually. But for the money. The new Patulla Bridge: the 4, then six lane option is a bit of a joke. It will be six lanes sooner than later. But would any other municipality accept a six lane bridge that connects to no high capacity route in their town? Not likely. A good example is the lack of connector from the Lions Gate to the Upper Levels. Those city governments have acted parallel to New West every time anyone proposes a link there. For the new Patulla, the Storemont connector is obvious. If it was in a tunnel, New West residents, and then their politicians , would accept that. Budgets will reject it.

Truth is, New West has acted within its duties to its own citizens. We can't fault that. The fault should be aimed at the Province for not make regional infrastructure planning a reality.

Last edited by Marshal; Oct 28, 2016 at 9:02 AM.
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  #9  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
New West's rejections are usually tied to incomplete projects that don't carry all the traffic from and to where it needs to go. This usually means a money issue. Who can blame a city trying to makeover its downtown from rejecting the NSPR unless it were separated so it didn't contradict what the city wants to be. Tunnel it, along with the rail lines, they would accept that eventually. But for the money. The new Patulla Bridge: the 4, then six lane option is a bit of a joke. It will be six lanes sooner than later. But would any other municipality accept a six lane bridge that connects to no high capacity route in their town? Not likely. A good example is the lack of connector from the Lions Gate to the Upper Levels. Those city governments have acted parallel to New West every time anyone proposes a link there. For the new Patulla, the Storemont connector is obvious. If it was in a tunnel, New West residents, and then their politicians , would accept that. Budgets will reject it.

Truth is, New West has acted within its duties to its own citizens. We can't fault that. The fault should be aimed at the Province for not make regional infrastructure planning a reality.
I don't think New West has pushed for Stormont in conjunction with Patullo. They have plenty of room for McBride to be upgraded without a tunnel being construction. As is, it's almost an expressway. Just eliminate a few driveways to the strip malls and add overpasses at key intersections.
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  #10  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
I don't think New West has pushed for Stormont in conjunction with Patullo. They have plenty of room for McBride to be upgraded without a tunnel being construction. As is, it's almost an expressway. Just eliminate a few driveways to the strip malls and add overpasses at key intersections.
I have not heard Stormont been talked about at all. I don't think it is addressed in the Master Transportation Plan either. I'd actually say that the view is the opposite. There is specific conversation about the Pattullo Bridge landing in an urban environment, similar to say the Oak Street or Burrard Bridge, and that the design of McBride should be updated to reflect this. For example, if Option B for the new Pattullo bridge was chosen (it was not), it would have an additional stoplight on McBride. Many on council supported this as it would be a clear sign that you're now entering an urban environment and should slow your speed accordingly. The only way that I'd see Stormont being supported is if there was a massive amount of tunnelling on the New West side, not just in Burnaby along Newcombe Street. I'd see that being a non-starter budget wise.

I personally think that New West is doing the right thing by keeping the bridge to four lanes to start. They need leverage to demand necessary improvements to their infrastructure to mitigate the impacts of the additional traffic. The Bailey Bridge situation was unfortunate as it painted council as obstinate to any changes what-so-ever. In reality much of their concerns about road infrastructure are completely valid but are now viewed as NIMBYism by others.
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  #11  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rickvug View Post
Many on council supported this as it would be a clear sign that you're now entering an urban environment and should slow your speed accordingly.

I personally think that New West is doing the right thing by keeping the bridge to four lanes to start. They need leverage to demand necessary improvements to their infrastructure to mitigate the impacts of the additional traffic.
I'd counter by saying that McBride is about as urban Hwy #97 in Prince George. It's got Stroad written all over it, which is an awful compromise.

Almost no buildings face the road, except maybe strip malls and gas stations. So urban, much wow.
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  #12  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rickvug View Post
I personally think that New West is doing the right thing by keeping the bridge to four lanes to start. They need leverage to demand necessary improvements to their infrastructure to mitigate the impacts of the additional traffic. The Bailey Bridge situation was unfortunate as it painted council as obstinate to any changes what-so-ever. In reality much of their concerns about road infrastructure are completely valid but are now viewed as NIMBYism by others.
I have personally been to several consultations and meetings in New Westminster and the vast majority of spectators or "concerned" citizens are individuals older than age 60. Discussions I heard included proposals to limiting through-traffic by permanently closing Front Street and the Patullo (to all trucks as well) to requesting an immediate shutdown of the railyard.

Again, much like the NIMBYS of Arbutus. You have a few vocal NIMBY'S ruining a neighborhoods reputation. If it were up to some of them, they would ban cars from entering certain neighborhoods.
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  #13  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
I am no fan of New Westminster's city government, but this old knock on the city doesn't actually make complete sense. Like it or not, New West (like central Vancouver and the City of North Van) is geographically different from most other municipalities.
I don't really buy the special snowflake defence, sorry.
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  #14  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 7:02 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
I am no fan of New Westminster's city government, but this old knock on the city doesn't actually make complete sense. Like it or not, New West (like central Vancouver and the City of North Van) is geographically different from most other municipalities.

But, the point is this: the infrastructure New West rejects doesn't fly anywhere else either. Just considering roads: there has been no major roadway expansions or new routes rammed through standing neighbourhoods anywhere in the region; not in Burnaby, Surrey, Richmond, or anywhere else. In all of those places there is room to route things (like the SFPR, Hwy1, the Alex Fraser Bridge, . . . ) through industrial or unused land. In those places corridors are already established and their expansion happens within them.

New West's rejections are usually tied to incomplete projects that don't carry all the traffic from and to where it needs to go. This usually means a money issue. Who can blame a city trying to makeover its downtown from rejecting the NSPR unless it were separated so it didn't contradict what the city wants to be. Tunnel it, along with the rail lines, they would accept that eventually. But for the money. The new Patullo Bridge: the 4, then six lane option is a bit of a joke. It will be six lanes sooner than later. But would any other municipality accept a six lane bridge that connects to no high capacity route in their town? Not likely. A good example is the lack of connector from the Lions Gate to the Upper Levels. Those city governments have acted parallel to New West every time anyone proposes a link there. For the new Patullo, the Storemont connector is obvious. If it was in a tunnel, New West residents, and then their politicians , would accept that. Budgets will reject it.

Truth is, New West has acted within its duties to its own citizens. We can't fault that. The fault should be aimed at the Province for not make regional infrastructure planning a reality.
Completely agree with these statements.
The Lion's Gate carries almost as many trips as the Patullo. We accept that it's always backed up because the CoV and the CoNV won't build highways through their downtowns to get people around.

How about a Limited Access Road that accesses the number 1. Some Eminent Domain could widen Taylor Way to make it 6 lanes... or built out a free-flow Interchange at Lower Capilano / Marine.

No one suggests these things because we know it would reduce livability of the area.

It doesn't MATTER that New Westminster is in the middle of the region, so to speak. If the region wants to ram traffic through New West, then the region should be prepared to pay for the privilege. This means a boxed-in bypass along Front Street, or a free-flowing way to access to Patullo from Brunette so that the already-built SFPR can be used instead.

Does anyone have any renders of what a boxed in Front street would look like?
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  #15  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 8:20 PM
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Completely agree with these statements.
The Lion's Gate carries almost as many trips as the Patullo. We accept that it's always backed up because the CoV and the CoNV won't build highways through their downtowns to get people around.

How about a Limited Access Road that accesses the number 1. Some Eminent Domain could widen Taylor Way to make it 6 lanes... or built out a free-flow Interchange at Lower Capilano / Marine.

No one suggests these things because we know it would reduce livability of the area.

It doesn't MATTER that New Westminster is in the middle of the region, so to speak. If the region wants to ram traffic through New West, then the region should be prepared to pay for the privilege. This means a boxed-in bypass along Front Street, or a free-flowing way to access to Patullo from Brunette so that the already-built SFPR can be used instead.

Does anyone have any renders of what a boxed in Front street would look like?
Eminent Domain is American. The Canadian term is expropriation. Sorry to be picky but this particular usage really annoys me.
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  #16  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 9:22 PM
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What is a snowflake defense?
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  #17  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 9:27 PM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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What is a snowflake defense?
"I'm a special snowflake, those rules don't apply to me."
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  #18  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 9:39 PM
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As far as the Stormont connector goes:
- the comments that it is not part of current planning are correct (as far as I know)
- I raised it as a good solution to the north end traffic flow.
- But, it is not just a New West thing: Alex Mackinnon is correct that McBride could easily be turned into a freeway, but the real issue is in Burnaby where the Stormont would carry traffic to HWY 1 and so make a major connection that would be good for the region.
But, the argument for turning McBride into a freeway (or close) flies in the face of what most other municipalities arer working towards: Surrey want's King George to change its character away from being solely a throughfare; North Van District is doing the same to Marine; and there are many other cases - so why should New West favour doing the opposite?

As for the Lions Gate: the causeway is not a problem unless a bigger crossing is built, it is currently built to the same standard as the bridge. There is no reason to widen it to 4 lanes if the bridge is 3 lanes. The north end dumps onto Marine, which is fine, but the two connections to the Upper Levels are not good and do not handle the traffic very well. A true connector would be as valuable there as for the Patullo in New West. The issues are similar, and the resistance is similar.
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Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 9:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ilikeredheads View Post
lol nimbyminster

this is the same city that tries to push for a one lane bridge replacement between Braid and United blvd. A single lane, not 1 lane each direction, but just 1 lane. Do they still think they live in the 1800s?
It was actually just a one lane bailey bridge for years and years.. even before United Boulevard was completed. Rather than put in a real bridge or even another bailey bridge, New West just put up a big fence to block traffic that they didn't want coming that direction.
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Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 7:18 PM
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What on earth are you talking about?

The reason Lions Gate remains as ridiculous as it currently is has nothing to do with the north side traffic flows. It's all about the causeway. The Parks Board wants nothing to with a wider causeway. Widening that section of road is a huge uphill battle for any government. They would have widened that to 4 lanes long ago if there wasn't immense pushback about cutting down a small number of trees. The south side doesn't move quickly, but it definitely has a greater capacity than the bridge itself barring a major problem. The single-lane direction will always be the choke point unless they do a huge structural upgrade and double deck the bridge.

I've never been stuck in a jam waiting to get off the Lions Gate Bridge, especially when headed north. The big jams happen when the lanes switch direction, since the primary lane has to "decompress" before the middle lane can merge in. That's when the deck jams up.
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