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  #1041  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2011, 2:54 AM
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The plan for the 800 block of K Street will be reviewed by the Preservation Commission this Wednesday. Here's a link to the staff report:

http://sacramento.granicus.com/MetaV...meta_id=218914

Bottom line: More units (200 instead of 110), and taller than the original proposal (the new buildings will be 6 and 5 stories instead of 4.) 20,000 sf of ground-floor retail. Fewer parking spaces than units, but really good transit access.

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  #1042  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2011, 4:38 AM
CAGeoNerd CAGeoNerd is offline
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Neat, thanks for sharing wburg. I can't access that link, but if I understand the layout correctly, the second image is showing the corner or L and 8th looking north? There are existing structures there, are they demolishing what is there to build these new places?

It seems weird to me that Sacramento dots up 20-something high rises around the city then puts 5 story buildings right next to it. Better than a dirt lot, but as a lot of us on here would like, I wish they would go bigger when building adjacent to one of the prominent buildings in town.
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  #1043  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2011, 6:10 AM
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For some reason the staff report isn't working. The L Street half would require demolition of the Feldhusen Building (on the corner of 8th and L) and the old Sam's Hof Brau (most recently 815 L Street) and a 1910-vintage parking garage in between the two, but would retain the Bel-Vue Apartments building.

The building height is probably driven by available funds--there isn't money to go taller, and they wanted to have a project that was fiscally practical given the available budget. I think part of the equation is that it is better to have a completed project soon, on a site that really needs at least some kind of success, than to leave it vacant for another generation. Between this and the 700 block project, we'll have potentially about 500 more people in the downtown core, and hopefully a catalyst that leads to bigger things. Don't worry, we can still hope that sometime soon Downtown Plaza will be replaced with something very tall.
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  #1044  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2011, 7:13 AM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is offline
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These look like good projects. Downtown could certainly use some more life. Of course, my ultimate dream would be a Whole Foods opening in downtown, modeled after the one they have in the Pearl District in Portland, but I'll take what I can get when it comes to projects, and these apartments look like they could be the start of something wonderful.
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  #1045  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2011, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatDarnSacramentan View Post
These look like good projects. Downtown could certainly use some more life. Of course, my ultimate dream would be a Whole Foods opening in downtown, modeled after the one they have in the Pearl District in Portland, but I'll take what I can get when it comes to projects, and these apartments look like they could be the start of something wonderful.
Supposedly one of the options being considered for the Greyhound depot building is a market--although there is also a plan for a small market/deli in the 700 block where Texas Mexican was. Having a few hundred more downtown residents would certainly help attract such a business, not to mention the 100,000 or so daytime employees within walking distance.
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  #1046  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2011, 4:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGeoNerd View Post
It seems weird to me that Sacramento dots up 20-something high rises around the city then puts 5 story buildings right next to it. Better than a dirt lot, but as a lot of us on here would like, I wish they would go bigger when building adjacent to one of the prominent buildings in town.
Sacramento isn't New York or Chicago CAGeoNerd and just doesn't support that type of infill height where 300 ft buildings are going up one after the other. Jeez it is hard enough getting one tower of any appreciable height built here much less two side by side. If the project is a quality one with a nice mix of residential and retail then by all means someone hand the developer a shovel to get it going. I really like what I see from the renderings that wburg posted and would be thrilled to see that as the finished product.
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  #1047  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2011, 10:34 PM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
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Originally Posted by arod74 View Post
Sacramento isn't New York or Chicago CAGeoNerd and just doesn't support that type of infill height where 300 ft buildings are going up one after the other. Jeez it is hard enough getting one tower of any appreciable height built here much less two side by side. If the project is a quality one with a nice mix of residential and retail then by all means someone hand the developer a shovel to get it going. I really like what I see from the renderings that wburg posted and would be thrilled to see that as the finished product.
What are the factors that are holding Sacramento back from growing into one of these cities above? Or better yet, What factors cause our "non-support" of those type of infill projects?
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  #1048  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2011, 4:06 AM
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I'd say the fact that we have a fraction of their population (about one-eighth of Chicago, less than a tenth of New York) is a factor, that and not having been a major American trade port during the 19th century, and not having grown into a major city before the era of the automobile, and thus not having much of a dense, vertical 19th century urban core to grow from, probably explains very well why we don't look like Chicago or New York.

In the present day, I would imagine that being in the midst of the most serious economic downturn of the lifetime of pretty much everyone reading this, a downturn caused by a bubble in the housing market, and located in a housing market that was one of the most overinflated parts of that bubble, had just a little bit to do with it.

The project in question is the height it is because the city had X amount of money to work with, and that is how much building the developer could deliver for X dollars. In fact, the proposed project is two stories taller than the original version Taylor/CIM/Domus proposed--and an extra 90 units. It's not a 50 story skyscraper because the city can't afford a 50 story skyscraper, nor can the private sector.
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  #1049  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2011, 5:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Econgrad View Post
What are the factors that are holding Sacramento back from growing into one of these cities above? Or better yet, What factors cause our "non-support" of those type of infill projects?
Not sure if you understood me correctly or I am getting the wrong idea from your comment Econgrad but I should have said that the Sacramento market doesn't support the building height and not that Sacramento in general doesn't support height as a mindset which is how I think you took my comment. The reason is simply in my opinion. There just isn't a demand to justify a developer building higher at this time hence no supply in the pipeline. When the housing market was booming and banks where handing out loans like after-dinner mints we had some demand for high rise condos and were about a month away from actually getting the the first of The Towers on CM fully loan funded by meeting their loan quotes. Now demand for condos and additional office space is pretty scarce. I doubt a modest project the size of The Warren condos, which just started taking applications, will be able to sell enough units to get funded for build out. We shall see...
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  #1050  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2011, 6:00 AM
CAGeoNerd CAGeoNerd is offline
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I'm not saying they should build a 20+ story building there simply because it's next to the Renaissance Tower. What I'm saying is I don't like how Sacramento has planned the growth of its highrises. We have lots of highrises spread throughout downtown that are separated by blocks of smaller buildings, so our skyline looks like it's broken up and doesn't fit together cohesively. There's no cluster of highrises where downtown centers on and buildings naturally scale down from. When I see them putting up 5-story buildings next to our taller buildings I get discouraged because I know it will only continue our broken skyline for even longer
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  #1051  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2011, 7:20 AM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
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Originally Posted by CAGeoNerd View Post
I'm not saying they should build a 20+ story building there simply because it's next to the Renaissance Tower. What I'm saying is I don't like how Sacramento has planned the growth of its highrises. We have lots of highrises spread throughout downtown that are separated by blocks of smaller buildings, so our skyline looks like it's broken up and doesn't fit together cohesively. There's no cluster of highrises where downtown centers on and buildings naturally scale down from. When I see them putting up 5-story buildings next to our taller buildings I get discouraged because I know it will only continue our broken skyline for even longer
I asked the questions because I kind of see CAGeonerds point.
Arod74, I was asking why you think the demand is not there for High-Rises. Wburg's answer is the economy (please correct me if I am mis-quoting you Wburg), and population; but I meant: Why did these cities grow so large, what factors caused them to grow? I need to re-phrase I guess:

What are the factors in New York and Chicago, that made those cities large in the first place, and are we missing these factors in Sacramento?
I am sure many will say "Port Cities", but Sac was once and sort of still is a Port City.
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  #1052  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2011, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Econgrad View Post
I asked the questions because I kind of see CAGeonerds point.
Arod74, I was asking why you think the demand is not there for High-Rises. Wburg's answer is the economy (please correct me if I am mis-quoting you Wburg), and population; but I meant: Why did these cities grow so large, what factors caused them to grow? I need to re-phrase I guess:

What are the factors in New York and Chicago, that made those cities large in the first place, and are we missing these factors in Sacramento?
I am sure many will say "Port Cities", but Sac was once and sort of still is a Port City.
Well, for starters, we're on the wrong side of the country. East Coast cities and Midwest cities had a long head-start on population growth, while California was an economic backwater for a long time. Second is not just the economy but their place in the history of urban growth: cities that grew big in the 19th century did so in a very dense, compact fashion due to the transportation infrastructure of the era.

Third, and perhaps most applicable here, is competition: cities compete with each other for primacy in a region. New York competed with Boston, and won because they had a better harbor and better access to the transportation network (at the time, the rivers and canals.) Chicago competed with St. Louis, and won because they had not only a water connection but multiple rail connections, allowing them to leapfrog St. Louis.

Sacramento had some natural advantages (our location along waterways and our early lead in railroads) but we had immediate disadvantages. Getting to Sacramento's port meant passing up two other ports on the way (San Francisco and Oakland.) Our weather was also a disadvantage: before air conditioning, there wasn't much escape from Sacramento's oppressive summer heat, and it took decades to build a flood control network that could keep floods at bay: until the early 1900s, Sacramento was surrounded on four sides by levees, like the walls of a castle! In the meantime we had a reputation as a stiflingly hot, flood-prone place--while the Bay Area was far more temperate, aside from the occasional shake-up. When people like Stanford, Crocker, Huntington and Gallatin made money in Sacramento, they moved to San Francisco--and built the universities, banks, hotels and opera houses named after them in the Bay Area. We got stuck with their old houses and turned them into orphanages and civic buildings.

Los Angeles started out way behind us, but they leapfrogged us in the 1880s when a second railroad entered the LA Basin, resulting in a massive land boom (in many ways, an economic bubble like our recent one.) Their weather was even better than San Francisco's, and a combination of railroad rate wars and real estate speculation drove their growth very rapidly. The Bay Area also got a second transcontinental railroad connection, which fueled a lot more growth there--the two railroads competed with each other for business.

Meanwhile, Sacramento was strictly a Southern Pacific town until Western Pacific and the electric interurbans arrived by 1910--but by then, the era when a new railroad would trigger a land boom had mostly passed (although that era did trigger the growth of many of our early suburbs!) During that era, we went through a big period of civic questioning, including paying some very smart folks to tell Sacramento how it could grow up.

Last edited by wburg; Mar 4, 2011 at 8:28 PM.
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  #1053  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2011, 4:40 AM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
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Well, for starters, we're on the wrong side of the country. East Coast cities and Midwest cities had a long head-start on population growth, while California was an economic backwater for a long time. Second is not just the economy but their place in the history of urban growth: cities that grew big in the 19th century did so in a very dense, compact fashion due to the transportation infrastructure of the era.

Third, and perhaps most applicable here, is competition: cities compete with each other for primacy in a region. New York competed with Boston, and won because they had a better harbor and better access to the transportation network (at the time, the rivers and canals.) Chicago competed with St. Louis, and won because they had not only a water connection but multiple rail connections, allowing them to leapfrog St. Louis.

Sacramento had some natural advantages (our location along waterways and our early lead in railroads) but we had immediate disadvantages. Getting to Sacramento's port meant passing up two other ports on the way (San Francisco and Oakland.) Our weather was also a disadvantage: before air conditioning, there wasn't much escape from Sacramento's oppressive summer heat, and it took decades to build a flood control network that could keep floods at bay: until the early 1900s, Sacramento was surrounded on four sides by levees, like the walls of a castle! In the meantime we had a reputation as a stiflingly hot, flood-prone place--while the Bay Area was far more temperate, aside from the occasional shake-up. When people like Stanford, Crocker, Huntington and Gallatin made money in Sacramento, they moved to San Francisco--and built the universities, banks, hotels and opera houses named after them in the Bay Area. We got stuck with their old houses and turned them into orphanages and civic buildings.

Los Angeles started out way behind us, but they leapfrogged us in the 1880s when a second railroad entered the LA Basin, resulting in a massive land boom (in many ways, an economic bubble like our recent one.) Their weather was even better than San Francisco's, and a combination of railroad rate wars and real estate speculation drove their growth very rapidly. The Bay Area also got a second transcontinental railroad connection, which fueled a lot more growth there--the two railroads competed with each other for business.

Meanwhile, Sacramento was strictly a Southern Pacific town until Western Pacific and the electric interurbans arrived by 1910--but by then, the era when a new railroad would trigger a land boom had mostly passed (although that era did trigger the growth of many of our early suburbs!) During that era, we went through a big period of civic questioning, including paying some very smart folks to tell Sacramento how it could grow up.
Thank you for a well written good answer. It is still not what I am looking for, but I will start this discussion on another thread when I have more time. Many great historical points made above, I hope others read your post.

Now back to K Street:

I have a question for all of you:

If we lose the Kings (and I will bet anyone we will), wouldn't the money we spent on K street for the last 20 years have been better spent on a new arena?
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  #1054  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2011, 4:47 AM
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Now back to K Street:

I have a question for all of you:

If we lose the Kings (and I will bet anyone we will), wouldn't the money we spent on K street for the last 20 years have been better spent on a new arena?[/QUOTE]

we needed a new arena 20 yrs ago??

maloofs are in need of money.....i say shouldnt they just sell to someone??
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  #1055  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2011, 5:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web View Post
Now back to K Street:

I have a question for all of you:

If we lose the Kings (and I will bet anyone we will), wouldn't the money we spent on K street for the last 20 years have been better spent on a new arena?
we needed a new arena 20 yrs ago??

maloofs are in need of money.....i say shouldnt they just sell to someone??
Mayor Johnson said the city would still be looking toward building a new sports complex, so even after the kings leave, the city's money still will go into saving for a new arena.

I don't think K street will get to much more funding until we either a, have a new arena, or b, vote out Johnson, and to me, the arena is still priority

To change the subject, if the kings move, what are the chances sacramento gets a d-league team?
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  #1056  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2011, 8:07 AM
Pistola916 Pistola916 is offline
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Originally Posted by KingsFan#1 View Post
Mayor Johnson said the city would still be looking toward building a new sports complex, so even after the kings leave, the city's money still will go into saving for a new arena.

I don't think K street will get to much more funding until we either a, have a new arena, or b, vote out Johnson, and to me, the arena is still priority

To change the subject, if the kings move, what are the chances sacramento gets a d-league team?
D-league? I hope the city goes after Major League Soccer - and maybe NHL. Who knows, the revival of the Sacramento Monarchs? Think about it.

The loss of our only pro team will hurt no doubt, at least psychologically. But there are other leagues/sports we can go after.
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  #1057  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2011, 1:18 PM
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We did build a new arena for the Kings 20 years ago. It was called "Arco Arena."
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  #1058  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2011, 7:05 PM
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I will say this, in a few weeks Sacramento will have a huge black eye of being by far the largest city/media market (by almost half a million people) without a major sports team.

Current title holder: Hampton Roads, VA (1,671,683)
New title holder: Sacramento CA (2,127,355)

Grats Sacramento
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  #1059  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2011, 9:18 PM
Pistola916 Pistola916 is offline
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so how about them River Cats? i hope they win the PCL championship. That will sure put Sacto on the map.
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  #1060  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2011, 9:48 PM
ThatDarnSacramentan ThatDarnSacramentan is offline
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so how about them River Cats? i hope they win the PCL championship. That will sure put Sacto on the map.
You mean like they have many times before? Yep, sure. As much as I love the Rivercats, they don't really do that much for the city, especially since they're in West Sac, of all places. If the Kings move, we should focus more on developing what we already have and finding other means of attracting outsiders and businesses here. San Jose has Silicon Valley, San Francisco has the banks, and Los Angeles has the entertainment industry. I mean, sure, we're decades, maybe even a century, behind everyone else, but surely there must be some sort of industry we can attract to set up shop here.
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