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  #241  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2018, 9:17 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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I'd rather just move away from ageism or all generalizations about people, for that matter. Time and time again in society these days so many people seem to be working hard at making divisions and driving others away through personal judgments based on race, religion, age, sexual orientation, political affiliation, etc. etc., and it's no more right now than it was when MLK gave his life in his efforts to try to change society for the better. Chances are, if your views contain anything with an 'ism' attached, it's probably not improving the conversation...

Regarding all the opposition to this project, the arguments seem even more lame than usual. There is already a tallish building and a parkade there, and it's already a high traffic area, one of the busiest in the city. What is there currently has been looking pretty run down for years and I wouldn't describe the architecture to be beautiful by any means... so tearing this down and putting in a new tall building can only be an improvement for everybody, IMHO.

So... to me it seems like an ideal location for an iconic building of 25+ levels to act as an 'entrance' to the Quinpool district. As long as the architecture and materials are of a high level (this one is still kinda 'meh' for me, but acceptable in comparison to other buildings that are going up now), then why not have a tall building in a highly-visible location, one that would be significant enough to likely be used on websites promoting Halifax in the future.

Honestly, if I lived in the neighborhood I'd be more concerned that it had great street-level amenities than how high the damn thing is. An aspect that seems to be over the heads of those arguing against it based on height.

But in terms of comments on this forum that involve age or generation, I'd be happy if we could just leave that out of the conversation. It all comes down to people who live in the area not wanting change and getting too much attention for it.

Hopefully it'll go through at 25 and we can move on.
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  #242  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 12:21 AM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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[Q It all comes down to people who live in the area not wanting change and getting too much attention for it.

Hopefully it'll go through at 25 and we can move on.[/QUOTE]
The Haivens live in Schmidtville, Alan Ruffman lives in Fergusons Cove, Mike Bradfield lives close to Dal. Regular speakers at any 'tall' development hearing.
I prefer to speak only to a development close to where I live. I stayed away from the King's Wharf hearings.
Not many of the speakers were from the immediate area and the opinion of the Quinpool Road merchants organisation seems to have had a significant influence on the outcome. I don't care how much money APL makes, I do care about a good design in such a prominent location. Let Mr Armoyan build 35 or 40 storeys if he wants to take a gamble. Or perhaps he can buy up the rest of that block and build the 7-8 storey Parisian boulevards favoured by Bradfield et al.
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  #243  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 1:40 AM
beyeas beyeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I'd rather just move away from ageism or all generalizations about people, for that matter.
100% agreed, and I have made similar points before on here about how these generalizations are just poor excuses for actual debate. It is endemic that people always want to have a "Them" who is a reason for all the problems. One week that might be "rich south enders', the next week it is "hipster north enders" who are to blame. Next up I fully expect Haitians to be blamed for all that ills Halifax.
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  #244  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 2:51 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Originally Posted by Colin May View Post
[Q It all comes down to people who live in the area not wanting change and getting too much attention for it.

Hopefully it'll go through at 25 and we can move on.
The Haivens live in Schmidtville, Alan Ruffman lives in Fergusons Cove, Mike Bradfield lives close to Dal. Regular speakers at any 'tall' development hearing.
I prefer to speak only to a development close to where I live. I stayed away from the King's Wharf hearings.
Not many of the speakers were from the immediate area and the opinion of the Quinpool Road merchants organisation seems to have had a significant influence on the outcome. I don't care how much money APL makes, I do care about a good design in such a prominent location. Let Mr Armoyan build 35 or 40 storeys if he wants to take a gamble. Or perhaps he can buy up the rest of that block and build the 7-8 storey Parisian boulevards favoured by Bradfield et al.[/QUOTE]

Great points, Colin.

The big problem here is that it is ultimately becoming a race to the bottom. They set it at 20 story max and suddenly, in some location, that will be too tall the next time something gets proposed.

I'd love to have more 7-8 non-Clayton Park specials (meaning good design, not just short) covering empty lots, but Spirit Place couldn't even get approved on Windsor Street.

There is no debate here, it is just people that fundamentally want different things. The perception of 25 vs 20 stories is hilarious because it is not something that can be justified as right or wrong.

I'm more concerned about the proposal for the funeral home lot... the current building on the lot looked like a disaster last time I saw it (white vinyl siding) and it is a perfect place for height next to the Welsford (if one believes in more people on the peninsula).
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  #245  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 2:13 PM
yal yal is offline
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Originally Posted by beyeas View Post
100% agreed, and I have made similar points before on here about how these generalizations are just poor excuses for actual debate. It is endemic that people always want to have a "Them" who is a reason for all the problems. One week that might be "rich south enders', the next week it is "hipster north enders" who are to blame. Next up I fully expect Haitians to be blamed for all that ills Halifax.
I find your thinking very naive. If it is rich south enders I will call them out as rich south enders. If it is hipster north enders, I will call them out as hipster north enders. Throwing in Haitians in this discussion is borderline strawman.

These words for those certain groups of people did not appear out of thin air. There are patterns and trends. You need sides (us and them from each sides' perspective) to have an actual debate.

It is baffling how scared people are to say it like it is these days.
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  #246  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 3:54 PM
Phalanx Phalanx is offline
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It's not 'saying it as it is', it's unfairly accusing a broad demographic of a belief that has no direct correlation with that demographic. Unless there is a direct correlation between an entire demographic and a belief, then accusing everyone in that demographic very much not 'saying it as it is'.

It's counterproductive, alienating, and unnecessarily combative.
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  #247  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 4:14 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by yal View Post
I find your thinking very naive. If it is rich south enders I will call them out as rich south enders. If it is hipster north enders, I will call them out as hipster north enders. Throwing in Haitians in this discussion is borderline strawman.

These words for those certain groups of people did not appear out of thin air. There are patterns and trends. You need sides (us and them from each sides' perspective) to have an actual debate.

It is baffling how scared people are to say it like it is these days.
BS response. And you know it is.

Just look at this exact thread. It is suggested that "Old farts" don't want new developments of any height. Yet, somebody in this thread has already taken exception to being placed into that generalization.

You seem to think that you are being 'real' by calling out groups of people, but in reality it's just lazy thinking. Nothing 'real' about it. Just grouping people into a stereotype that you have built built up a certain resentment for without considering the individual, and then demonizing the whole group because "they all are that way".

Donald Trump would be proud...
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  #248  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 4:59 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post

You seem to think that you are being 'real' by calling out groups of people, but in reality it's just lazy thinking. Nothing 'real' about it. Just grouping people into a stereotype that you have built built up a certain resentment for without considering the individual, and then demonizing the whole group because "they all are that way".

Nobody said that. Except you, just here.

There were a lot of old folks speaking out against the proposal at the hearing. Nobody said that it was every senior in HRM. But there was surely a pattern. Just as there is in every similar hearing.

I don't see what the fuss is all about. People don't like change, especially older people, generally speaking. This is hardly divisive. It is reality.
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  #249  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 6:11 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Nobody said that. Except you, just here.

There were a lot of old folks speaking out against the proposal at the hearing. Nobody said that it was every senior in HRM. But there was surely a pattern. Just as there is in every similar hearing.

I don't see what the fuss is all about. People don't like change, especially older people, generally speaking. This is hardly divisive. It is reality.
OK, I was making a point. No fuss, just a point. Hopefully all of us are intelligent enough to understand it. Conversation finished.
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  #250  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 7:39 PM
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The median age in Halifax is something like 35 but I recall seeing a Herald picture of a public consultation and the median age looked more like 65. Pointing out that there is a problem with this doesn't make you anti-senior.

It's even stranger when you realize most of these older people won't be around in 20 or 30 years when the full weight of our current collective planning decisions is felt.

More generally there's also the "lobbying" problem. Those with more time and money get a greater voice, and the acute concerns of a few will always outweigh the diffuse concerns of a much greater number of people. For this reason these town hall style consultations will always be limited in their usefulness if they are unstructured. They can be a bit more useful if they're more like workshops built around the idea of trade-offs or compromise and understanding everyone's underlying motivations.
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  #251  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 8:13 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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The median age in Halifax is something like 35 but I recall seeing a Herald picture of a public consultation and the median age looked more like 65. Pointing out that there is a problem with this doesn't make you anti-senior.
It was very much an older crowd. The sense I got was that it was A: The old reliable NIMBYs who come out for almost everything, and B: A lot of neighbourhood old timers from the Quinpool-adjacent neighbourhoods, who've probably owned those houses for 20, 30, 40 years.

There were some younger people, though, to be fair, like the woman who moved from Vancouver and begged council not to let Halifax turn into a cost-of-living nightmare like Van. (She seemed to believe that condos are the cause of Vancouver's housing crisis, whereas you could make a convincing argument that one of Vancouver's problems is not enough condos/apartment towers.)

I was thinking the same thing about the town-hall style events, too, and how much more useful it would be if a conversation of some kind could develop. Most of the opponents were arguing in good faith, and genuinely seemed to think that the tower would have all kinds of negative effects. I wonder if having a real roundtable type of environment might have helped the different appreciate each others' perspectives (which I think would lead to greater acceptance of height for some of the anti-tower types who weren't radicalized NIMBYs, who really only represent a fraction of the opponents).
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  #252  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 8:49 PM
Takeo Takeo is offline
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Arguing over 25 stories seems ridiculous to me. It’s not the Burj Khalifa. But my question to those opposed would be... if not at the intersection of Quinpool and Robie... two of the busiest streets in one of the most urban areas on the Penninusla... then where?! I read about people complaining about it making the area less livable and walkable. I’d say a big part of making an area livable and walkable is having a ton of people living, walking and working there. If you prefer 2 story development I’d recommend Cole Harbour.
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  #253  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 8:58 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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So, what you're saying is that those lazy, entitled young people didn't bother to show up and give support to this project to counter the cranky, old people who are resistant to change?

Just kidding...
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  #254  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 8:59 PM
yal yal is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
BS response. And you know it is.

Just look at this exact thread. It is suggested that "Old farts" don't want new developments of any height. Yet, somebody in this thread has already taken exception to being placed into that generalization.

You seem to think that you are being 'real' by calling out groups of people, but in reality it's just lazy thinking. Nothing 'real' about it. Just grouping people into a stereotype that you have built built up a certain resentment for without considering the individual, and then demonizing the whole group because "they all are that way".

Donald Trump would be proud...
Hahaha Donald Trump would be proud yeah. So many snowflakes here old or young.

Show me where I demonized everyone? Show me the damn sentence where I demonized entire demographics?

Geez. Are you guys too blind to see the very simple patterns? Do I need to give you statistical analysis to make a point for something every single time?

Actually, I am out of here. You guys keep patting yourselves in the back here in your echo chamber. This is ridiculous.
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  #255  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 9:29 PM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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It would have been nice if the older folks had found a way to acknowledge the change of opinion by the Quinpool merchants, all those small businesses who take a lot of risk trying to make a living and put a few dollars away for their retirement. Or even mentioned the Armoyan efforts to cloth and furnish the Syrian refugees instead.
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  #256  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 9:48 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by yal View Post
Hahaha Donald Trump would be proud yeah. So many snowflakes here old or young.

Show me where I demonized everyone? Show me the damn sentence where I demonized entire demographics?

Geez. Are you guys too blind to see the very simple patterns? Do I need to give you statistical analysis to make a point for something every single time?

Actually, I am out of here. You guys keep patting yourselves in the back here in your echo chamber. This is ridiculous.
So you're leaving over this, but you are referring to other board members as snowflakes?

Chill out, man. I was just expressing my opinion, much in the same way as you were. It's all good, no hard feelings intended. Calling it like I see it, as warped as it may be...
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  #257  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 10:11 PM
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TheNovaScotian TheNovaScotian is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
So, what you're saying is that those lazy, entitled young people didn't bother to show up and give support to this project to counter the cranky, old people who are resistant to change?

Just kidding...
I spoke to a few lazy entitled young people afterwards. It was the same reason a few friends of mine couldn't show up. They were too tired from working 2 or 3 jobs and can't spare the time. They're thinking was that the elected officials would be able to do their job and read reports about shadow studies, which Clouncillor Smith decided conveniently not to do.

What I can tell you with certainty is the rude comments I heard were from older people and there was no shortage of scoffs and mob mentality. You could tell older people knew they were in the majority in the room, the only respite was knowing that fact wouldn't hold true for long. You can call it agist and it is. I have a great disdain for the Boomer generation, they have been sacrificing the generations after it since day one. Nations rarely ran massive debts before they became a majority voting block in industrialized nations. So self important Boomers decided it was smart to mortgage the future for the present gains with no idea how to pay any of it back.....Feeling almost "entitled" to it?

This lazy entitled younger generation will be paying the bills so you can retire the most opulent generation in human history so that same respect you expect, try offering it. Themselves not having a good chance at the same living through constant calls for austerity to pay your debts. This world will be a better place in 20-30 years due to the disappearance of the worst decision making generation our species has produced yet. I have parents and grand parents I'm not a monster, I love them but that doesn't change the huge debts left to pay after they are gone. Some of us have to still struggle for a better tomorrow and the day after that and so on, catch my drift?
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  #258  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2018, 10:25 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian View Post
I spoke to a few lazy entitled young people afterwards. It was the same reason a few friends of mine couldn't show up. They were too tired from working 2 or 3 jobs and can't spare the time. They're thinking was that the elected officials would be able to do their job and read reports about shadow studies, which Clouncillor Smith decided conveniently not to do.

What I can tell you with certainty is the rude comments I heard were from older people and there was no shortage of scoffs and mob mentality. You could tell older people knew they were in the majority in the room, the only respite was knowing that fact wouldn't hold true for long. You can call it agist and it is. I have a great disdain for the Boomer generation, they have been sacrificing the generations after it since day one. Nations rarely ran massive debts before they became a majority voting block in industrialized nations. So self important Boomers decided it was smart to mortgage the future for the present gains with no idea how to pay any of it back.....Feeling almost "entitled" to it?

This lazy entitled younger generation will be paying the bills so you can retire the most opulent generation in human history so that same respect you expect, try offering it. Themselves not having a good chance at the same living through constant calls for austerity to pay your debts. This world will be a better place in 20-30 years due to the disappearance of the worst decision making generation our species has produced yet. I have parents and grand parents I'm not a monster, I love them but that doesn't change the huge debts left to pay after they are gone. Some of us have to still struggle for a better tomorrow and the day after that and so on, catch my drift?
Ha ha... well said!

Obviously when one uses negative descriptors to generalize an entire demographic (i.e. lazy, entitled), it stirs up emotions in those who feel they don't fit into that generalization, or even moreso when they don't feel it's true for the majority of that demographic, nor fair to be judged in that light.

My original point proven. Thanks!

And yes, I agree with much of what you are saying, but I feel it the situation is much more complex than you and the majority of the population think that it is.

Just wait and see what the next generation says about your generation... all the things that you should have been doing when it wasn't necessarily obvious to you at the time. And all the struggles that they are faced with will be your fault. Hindsight is always 20/20, and I hope you get to benefit from it when you become old someday. Read up on some world history - this sentiment isn't unique to our time, nor will it ever be as long as humans populate the planet.



Have a great evening, all. It's been fun!
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  #259  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 12:38 AM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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This FB post from everyone's favorite, John Wesley Chisholm, sums up the delusional thinking that the antis have embraced:

https://www.facebook.com/johnwesley....55661465598500

The comments that follow are equally entertaining/depressing.
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  #260  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 6:53 PM
DT Hfx DT Hfx is offline
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This FB post from everyone's favorite, John Wesley Chisholm, sums up the delusional thinking that the antis have embraced:
The comments that follow are equally entertaining/depressing.
Chisholm has a massive trump-size ego and a know-it-all, loud mouth personality.
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