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  #301  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 5:25 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Eau Claire View Post
I think that's part of my question. How much of a subsidy would it take to make this a viable industry?
That's a good question, and I don't think anyone knows the answer. I'd suggest start with a generous credit, something like $200 a ton. See if companies take the government up on that. If it turns out to be too generous and thus too expensive, lower it.

Once you find an approximate level where the credit makes sense, increase the carbon price paid to emit to be higher than the credit to take carbon out. Done, climate change solved, if everybody does this.

There is probably a more efficient way of setting the prices, but that's the just of it.
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  #302  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 9:00 PM
Eau Claire Eau Claire is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
That's a good question, and I don't think anyone knows the answer. I'd suggest start with a generous credit, something like $200 a ton. See if companies take the government up on that. If it turns out to be too generous and thus too expensive, lower it.

Once you find an approximate level where the credit makes sense, increase the carbon price paid to emit to be higher than the credit to take carbon out. Done, climate change solved, if everybody does this.

There is probably a more efficient way of setting the prices, but that's the just of it.
I'm not sure if we're getting mixed up here but I was talking specifically about that electrolysis process in the chemistry link and the products it produces vs. the cost of producing them, and what it would take to make that viable. in general, right now we seem to be at about $15-$20/tonne to sequester CO2 using regenerative agriculture and silvopasture, and $30/tonne using capture from the exhaust stream of an industrial facility, and $100/tonne for direct air capture. The first is the cheapest, and it has huge potential in terms of the amount that could be sequestered, but the CO2 would not be available for other purposes. The second is not much more expensive and the CO2 captured could be used as a feedstock in another process, so depending on what you could sell it for it could be the cheapest, but you'd have to transport it from the plant to the end user. The third is the most expensive but since you're capturing it from the air you can put the capture facility in a lot of places. The Carbon Engineering DAC unit they're building near Houston will be near a depleted reservoir where they want to use the CO2 for EOR, so it makes sense there. There is a huge amount of CO2 to use up, however, so the more ways we have to do it the better.
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  #303  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 10:20 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Very interesting and well-balanced piece by CNBC.

Bill Gates-Backed Carbon Capture Plant Does The Work Of 40 Million Trees

In Squamish, British Columbia, there’s a company that wants to stop climate change by sucking carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere.

Video Link
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  #304  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 11:42 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
Very interesting and well-balanced piece by CNBC.

Bill Gates-Backed Carbon Capture Plant Does The Work Of 40 Million Trees

In Squamish, British Columbia, there’s a company that wants to stop climate change by sucking carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere.

Video Link
How do you suggest paying for it?

Edit, did you actually watch the video? You'll notice the answer to my question lies within it.

Last edited by milomilo; Jun 23, 2019 at 12:03 AM.
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  #305  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 11:48 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Eau Claire View Post
I'm not sure if we're getting mixed up here but I was talking specifically about that electrolysis process in the chemistry link and the products it produces vs. the cost of producing them, and what it would take to make that viable. in general, right now we seem to be at about $15-$20/tonne to sequester CO2 using regenerative agriculture and silvopasture, and $30/tonne using capture from the exhaust stream of an industrial facility, and $100/tonne for direct air capture. The first is the cheapest, and it has huge potential in terms of the amount that could be sequestered, but the CO2 would not be available for other purposes. The second is not much more expensive and the CO2 captured could be used as a feedstock in another process, so depending on what you could sell it for it could be the cheapest, but you'd have to transport it from the plant to the end user. The third is the most expensive but since you're capturing it from the air you can put the capture facility in a lot of places. The Carbon Engineering DAC unit they're building near Houston will be near a depleted reservoir where they want to use the CO2 for EOR, so it makes sense there. There is a huge amount of CO2 to use up, however, so the more ways we have to do it the better.
There's been a lot of claims of cost, but no proof yet. The only way to find out is to actually offer up the money.

To refine my proposal, it might be better to offer up some competitive bid process, like the government says there are 100,000 tons of carbon credits up for grabs, whoever can do the job cheapest gets the money.
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  #306  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 5:24 AM
Eau Claire Eau Claire is offline
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Another potentially BIG one.

BECCS
https://www.drax.com/press_release/w...o2-beccs-ccus/
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  #307  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 5:43 AM
Eau Claire Eau Claire is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
There's been a lot of claims of cost, but no proof yet. The only way to find out is to actually offer up the money.

To refine my proposal, it might be better to offer up some competitive bid process, like the government says there are 100,000 tons of carbon credits up for grabs, whoever can do the job cheapest gets the money.
What do you consider proof? Most of these numbers come from pilot plants at the least. Getting numbers from full scale operating plants would obviously be better, but a pilot plant should give you a pretty good idea. They're not all as low as the numbers I quoted, I should add. Those are more like industry best numbers at this time. A plant like the Quest plant near Edmonton is at $80 now, but they say the next generation plant would be at $60/tonne.
https://www.jwnenergy.com/article/20...trending-down/
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  #308  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 6:23 AM
Eau Claire Eau Claire is offline
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https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...limate-change/
Here’s an interesting and overall very good discussion on regenerative agriculture, but it also shows some of the problems there can be going from good science to good policy. Some scientists are really just scientists – which is still much better than the ones who misrepresent the science of course – and they don’t really understand good policy or even the full potential of their findings. Here’s an example from the above article:

“Tim Searchinger, a researcher at Princeton who closely studied the potential of carbon farming for an upcoming World Resources Institute report, took an even more skeptical stance.
He said there are limits on how much farmers can change their soil management practices, and other restrictions on how much more carbon we can reliably store in soils that we continue to farm. In addition, some efforts that could be credited as carbon farming might have taken place anyway.”
-Even if there are “limits”, and unfortunately the article tells us noting about those limits, the potential here is so HUGE that this area is clearly very much worth exploring. And even if some of these would have taken place anyway, this is a way to make sure they keep taking place and to quantify what they are doing, and by signing farmers up to a program like this you could make them part of a research project that tell you how to do this even more effectively.

““Our view generally is that it’s been a huge diversion,” he said. “We have … an enormous number of things that need to done to be solve agriculture and climate change, and soil carbon ain’t it, at least from a mitigation standpoint.”
The first and most important priority for minimizing the climate impact of agriculture is to stop clearing more land for it, Searchinger stressed.
“There’s no scientific uncertainty about that,” he said. “You clear a forest and you lose a lot of carbon.”
In particular, he said, we need to make extra efforts to conserve or restore peatlands, a type of wetland that releases vast amounts of carbon dioxide when it’s dried out and converted to agricultural uses.”
-Without knowing what his alternatives are it’s hard to respond to his top statement, but pretty clearly the massive potential of this means that it should be one of the first things we focus on. And note that this solves two problems at once. It sequesters carbon and it regenerates the soil.
-And he fails to realize that a properly designed program would protect the forests and peatlands as well. Paying famers X dollars per tonne of sequestered carbon would add another revenue stream and earn the farmers more money on the land they currently farm. Clearing forest would release carbon and probably wipe out the carbon profits they make on their other farmland. Silvopasture might be an option for some of these forested areas and if so that sequesters carbon and would earn them more money.

“Boosting productivity on grazing and croplands—through, say, better processes, nutrients, crops, or seeds—can deliver bigger benefits, he argued, by easing pressure to expand agricultural operations. Better still would be for farmers to convert some fields back to grasslands and forests, which store far more carbon in their leaves, trunks, roots, and soil.”
- Again, if you’re paying farmers to sequester carbon then you’re increasing their income without increasing the productivity of the land, at least not in the traditional sense. You are essentially adding a “carbon farming” stream and in that way you are making the land more productive. This scientist clearly doesn’t understand how a properly designed program could achieve most of the things he wants.
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  #309  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 1:21 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Eau Claire View Post
What do you consider proof? Most of these numbers come from pilot plants at the least. Getting numbers from full scale operating plants would obviously be better, but a pilot plant should give you a pretty good idea. They're not all as low as the numbers I quoted, I should add. Those are more like industry best numbers at this time. A plant like the Quest plant near Edmonton is at $80 now, but they say the next generation plant would be at $60/tonne.
https://www.jwnenergy.com/article/20...trending-down/
Essentially, yeah, seeing the numbers from full scale profitable businesses. All we've seen so far have been small scale projects usually tacked onto to a larger fossil fuel plant.

The only way carbon capture can make a meaningful contribution to carbon reduction is to make it into a profitable business, and the way to do that is to pay them to do so. And if you're paying people to take the molecule out, it's obvious we should also charge people to put the molecule into the atmosphere.
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  #310  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 2:32 PM
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Small town NetZero.

This project is in the heart of conservative bible belt in Alberta.

You are seeing more and more small installations at farms around the province as well. Farmers were jumping on the Last governments programs. those have more or less been put on hold.

During a drive north last week I noticed quite a few solar installations being used for the Cell tower network in more remote regions.

https://www.producer.com/2019/06/net...al-holy-grail/
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  #311  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 9:09 PM
Eau Claire Eau Claire is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Essentially, yeah, seeing the numbers from full scale profitable businesses. All we've seen so far have been small scale projects usually tacked onto to a larger fossil fuel plant.

The only way carbon capture can make a meaningful contribution to carbon reduction is to make it into a profitable business, and the way to do that is to pay them to do so. And if you're paying people to take the molecule out, it's obvious we should also charge people to put the molecule into the atmosphere.
I wouldn't say they're all small scale, although the bigger ones are all first generation and will undoubtedly get more efficient and cheaper with each revision. The non-CDR ones can either be built with with anything with a suitable exhaust stream - I'm sure we'll see a lot of them built with cement plants - or as they did with the SaskPower one at the Boundary Dam in Estevan they can also be retrofitted to existing plants, which is huge. It had been thought that we were going to have to wait until the many coal fired power plants in the world lived out their useful lives before their emissions could be dealt with, but this technology changes that.

And I agree that a properly applied carbon tax can expedite the process. I voted for Rachel Notley and I generally supported the carbon tax here, but I think that even now only a modest carbon tax is needed. David Keith in that video above was talking about a $100/tonne tax, but as much as I like Keith you have to remember that his DAC/CDR process is the most expensive, and HIS cost is $100/tonne, so it's understandable that that's the number that comes off the top of his head. You also also have to remember that with his process and the Quest and SaskPower type processes you end up with a carbon stream as a salable product. I know that when oil was at it's peak in some places in Texas CO2 for EOR was going for $100/tonne. Recently it's been much less. I believe SaskPower was selling it's CO2 for $30/tonne, but the point is that Keith doesn't need the full $100 to make his technology viable.

Also remember that governments are supporting these projects in many other ways as well. I believe that Keith's full scale plant in Texas is going to be supplying the California market, so it's their emission standards that are essentially funding that plant. And I believe that both federal and provincial governments put money into both the Quest and SaskPower plants.

edit:
Also note that there are some tax credits that come into play as well.
https://medium.com/@carbon180/45q-cr...s-731bf382ab1d

Last edited by Eau Claire; Jun 24, 2019 at 9:30 PM.
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  #312  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 9:17 PM
Eau Claire Eau Claire is offline
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This is a BBC article, so more and more this is creeping into the mainstream media.


Turning carbon dioxide into cash
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48723049
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  #313  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 6:34 PM
Eau Claire Eau Claire is offline
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And now the CBC is publishing articles on small modular reactors. These are poor articles with all kinds of mistakes, but the fact that the CBC is publishing them at all is noteworthy. It took forever for the fear industry media outlets to acknowledge the huge advances that were being made in solar and wind power, but eventually they couldn't deny it anymore. Maybe we're getting to that point with the new nuclear and carbon capture technologies?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/s...-smr-1.5187469
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nuc...ctor-1.5188048
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  #314  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 7:04 PM
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Not climate change related, but certainly pollution related:

This house was built using 600,000 recycled plastic bottles
Bottles are shredded, melted, formed into slabs and made into walls for the house.
Brett Ruskin · CBC News · Posted: Jun 25, 2019 12:52 PM AT | Last Updated: June 25
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...otia-1.5188749

I find the amount of plastics finding their way into the ocean very troubling. This seems like an excellent way to recycle plastics and take them out of the environment for the long term.

This house is apparently the first of its kind in the world and is located in Nova Scotia.
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  #315  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 9:20 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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If the goal is just to remove bottles, why not landfill them? Does this method result in a better house? Is it cheaper, is it more energy efficient? If it isn't, what is the point, other than interest? Using plastic in place of lumber is probably a net negative in terms of CO2.
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  #316  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 9:36 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
If the goal is just to remove bottles, why not landfill them? Does this method result in a better house? Is it cheaper, is it more energy efficient? If it isn't, what is the point, other than interest? Using plastic in place of lumber is probably a net negative in terms of CO2.
- Why would landfilling existing bottles be better than recycling them into building materials? Burying them in the ground doesn't seem to be a better alternative vs creating a building with them.

- According to the article, the materials were able to withstand Cat 5 Hurricane-level winds, though the testing criteria was not detailed in the article. Also, insulation properties are said to be better, though R-value data is not given. So presumably it could result in a better house.

- According to the article, cost about the same as a conventional house, it also stated it could be built more quickly, which one could assume would save labour costs.

- Using plastic in place of lumber would probably be a net improvement for the environment, with less trees being cut, less forests being disturbed. But of course the lumber industry would complain about that - though it could free-up more Canadian lumber to sell to other nations...

Definitely interesting, and IMHO worth a study to understand positives and negatives compared to the current situation.
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  #317  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 9:48 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Processing the bottles into construction material will use a considerable amount of energy, likely more than the lumber. So it's likely better to just landfill the bottles and use the lumber, from a CO2 perspective, while being exactly equivalent from the perspective of just getting rid of the plastic.

There's an easy way to find out - apply a universal carbon price. If it's better to use the bottles, industry will use them as it will be cheaper.
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  #318  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 10:01 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Processing the bottles into construction material will use a considerable amount of energy, likely more than the lumber. So it's likely better to just landfill the bottles and use the lumber, from a CO2 perspective, while being exactly equivalent from the perspective of just getting rid of the plastic.

There's an easy way to find out - apply a universal carbon price. If it's better to use the bottles, industry will use them as it will be cheaper.
It's not clear how recycling them into building materials would compare to the recycling that's already being done to them. Could be little to no difference. Then we have to remember that lumber requires processing (i.e. cutting, 'kiln drying', etc.) as well.

And then, if it actually resulted in less trees being cut down you might have a net reduction in CO2 due to absorption by the extra trees that were allowed to remain alive.

Without data, we can only speculate. Regardless, in the big picture (not just CO2) reusing materials seems like a better result than burying them in the ground 'forever' (though some day somebody will probably have to figure out what to do with buried plastics, I'm sure, nothing is 'forever'...).
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  #319  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 10:16 PM
Eau Claire Eau Claire is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Processing the bottles into construction material will use a considerable amount of energy, likely more than the lumber. So it's likely better to just landfill the bottles and use the lumber, from a CO2 perspective, while being exactly equivalent from the perspective of just getting rid of the plastic.

There's an easy way to find out - apply a universal carbon price. If it's better to use the bottles, industry will use them as it will be cheaper.
You're asking the right questions, but further to the BECCS link above I wonder if the best thing to do with unrecyclable plastics might be to burn them in a BECCS plant and sequester the carbon. Plastic and rubber have a high energy content and if you burn them at a high temperate they burn completely. Using them as fuel in a cement kiln would be another good option. They would replace some of the natural gas there.

Here's a side story. Probably 20+ years ago there was a proposal to burn used tires in a cement kiln near here. It was a excellent solution. You'd get rid of the tires. You'd reclaim the energy sored in the tire and use less natural gas. Burning at the high temperatures that cement kilns operate at burns the rubber completely and all you're left with is the steel belts, which can be recycled. But a local extremist "environmental" group could only understand that burning = bad, and they were able to stop the project. So they ended up hurting the environment in the name of environmentalism.
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  #320  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 10:21 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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It's not clear how recycling them into building materials would compare to the recycling that's already being done to them. Could be little to no difference. Then we have to remember that lumber requires processing (i.e. cutting, 'kiln drying', etc.) as well.

And then, if it actually resulted in less trees being cut down you might have a net reduction in CO2 due to absorption by the extra trees that were allowed to remain alive.

Without data, we can only speculate. Regardless, in the big picture (not just CO2) reusing materials seems like a better result than burying them in the ground 'forever' (though some day somebody will probably have to figure out what to do with buried plastics, I'm sure, nothing is 'forever'...).
Seems better, but actually probably isn't by any meaningful metric. You are right that without data, it's partially speculation. But if industry isn't doing it now, it likely isn't cost effective. And even so, it would still probably be more energy efficient just to make the plastic from raw material.
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