New Ottawa Civic Hospital [930 Carling Ave + 520 Preston St] | U/C

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

This seems to make a whole lot of sense.


Except that Central Park is full of people and things to do... baseball diamonds, soccer fields, lakes, trails, etc, etc, etc. Other than biking, walking, running, or roller blading through the CEF, there is nothing for the average person to stop and do there.

When my kids were smaller and into Soccer, I had to drive from Westboro to Barrhaven, Orleans, or some other far flung corner of the city a couple of times a week. I kept wondering why they couldn't carve out just a little corner of the CEF and put in a couple of centrally located Soccer Fields... would be a much more practical use of space.

I do get the history and know nothing is going to happen in the short term.. but I do see value in at least having these conversations..

I am not totally against redevelopment but it should be with compatible purposes. I don't see sports fields as being compatible with the history and purpose of the site. I do see a National Botanical Gardens being a suitable re-use especially in parts that are underutilized such as close to Hartwell Locks. Of course, we saw what happened with the last attempt and those people who suggested that a Botanical Gardens are equivalent to Disney Land don't do credit to this city. As an aside, Botanical Gardens are great tourist attractions, which would again be suitable for a national facility such as the CEF.

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

When my kids were smaller and into Soccer, I had to drive from Westboro to Barrhaven, Orleans, or some other far flung corner of the city a couple of times a week. I kept wondering why they couldn't carve out just a little corner of the CEF and put in a couple of centrally located Soccer Fields... would be a much more practical use of space.

Sorry, but there are soccer fields all over that area of the city. There is one in central park, 2 at Carleton, 2 at St Pius off Fisher, etc. Driving to other parts of town for sports is just how sports works. There are more teams if you include the whole city

[HighwayStar]

To put this in context... both my sons are now off to university, and soccer was nothing more than a Rec League hobby with the Ottawa Royals..

Originally Posted by silvergate

Sorry, but there are soccer fields all over that area of the city. There is one in central park, 2 at Carleton, 2 at St Pius off Fisher, etc.

Yes... I know... but those fields are pretty much fully booked by the higher competitive teams. There's a HUGE shortage of fields for kids in Recreational Leagues in the "older" parts of town. From my home in Westboro, when the closest "home field" is Hunt Club/Greenbank or Lorry Greenberg Drive... that speaks of demand for more facilities. I am NOT the only parent in this situation

Originally Posted by silvergate

Driving to other parts of town for sports is just how sports works. There are more teams if you include the whole city

Tell me about it.. I once clocked 240km one Saturday just juggling conflicting tournaments in Kanata and Orleans Had a great time, by the way!

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

... I do see a National Botanical Gardens being a suitable re-use especially in parts that are underutilized such as close to Hartwell Locks. Of course, we saw what happened with the last attempt and those people who suggested that a Botanical Gardens are equivalent to Disney Land don't do credit to this city. As an aside, Botanical Gardens are great tourist attractions, which would again be suitable for a national facility such as the CEF.

No complaints about this... sounds like a great idea... but it's just a couple of % in the corner of the whole site.

I'm just tossing out what I feel are practical ideas. MountainView provided excellent insight into some of the issues involved in taking over some of that property.

I guess the point is what (if anything) should be done with the Experimental Farm. If people want to leave the whole thing as it is, no skin off my nose really... and believe me, the LAST thing I'm advocating is paving the place over to put up 27 story buildings.

I know it's a slippery slope, but as the city matures, I really don't see the harm in having a discussion to free-up some of that space, and maybe move some of the appropriate research to more rural locations.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Yes... I know... but those fields are pretty much fully booked by the higher competitive teams. There's a HUGE shortage of fields for kids in Recreational Leagues in the "older" parts of town. From my home in Westboro, when the closest "home field" is Hunt Club/Greenbank or Lorry Greenberg Drive... that speaks of demand for more facilities. I am NOT the only parent in this situation

This is exactly right. There is a huge shortage of soccer fields in the central area. My son's centrally-based team had to practice in Barrhaven this summer, as that was the closest field they could get on a weekly basis. There were more than a few occasions when we were too "busy" to make the drive.

[Norman Bates]

Okay. So I think we have an agreement here. Build the new civic on the former carling building site. Tear down the old civic and install soccer fields for inner-city recreation leagues. Now we just need skippy to ram this through cabinet and...

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

Okay. So I think we have an agreement here. Build the new civic on the former carling building site. Tear down the old civic and install soccer fields for inner-city recreation leagues. Now we just need skippy to ram this through cabinet and...

...and, its gone.

What do you mean?

The electorate gave skippy an idea, and he realized it wasnt his, and its gone.


But yes, absolutely. This idea connects with Transit, and doesnt do an injustice to the CEF.

[Norman Bates]

Proven leadership for a strong Canada. <insert sarcasm emoticon here>

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

Okay. So I think we have an agreement here. Build the new civic on the former carling building site. Tear down the old civic and install soccer fields for inner-city recreation leagues. Now we just need skippy to ram this through cabinet and...

The old Civic will be marked as heritage (if not already). It's not going anywhere.

[Norman Bates]

Skippy will shepherd a secret order in council that will retroactively remove heritage designation from what will be publicly described as the "old, decrepit, rat-infested, civic".

Remember kids: "the people of Canada voted for this".

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

The old Civic will be marked as heritage (if not already). It's not going anywhere.

Ah, but only one or two buildings would be heritage. The H-shaped building with the copper roofs including the little tail behind it would be restored, and possibly the building to the far left in the photo below ("Parkdale Clinic") could be preserved. The rest of the campus can easily be demolished and something new could be built. There's several small buildings, a bunch of surface parking lots and one large parkade that could be demolished and replaced with new buildings.

The main issue is that it would be very expensive. They would have to have a plan where buildings would be built in phases to shift clinics and beds to so that other buildings can be torn down and have something new built in its place. The restoration of the heritage buildings would also increase costs. But if they built underground parking and left the front along Carling grass, they could build a new hospital in a couple of decades on the same lot.



I've sinced changed my position and wish they would either use their campus better or move closer to downtown (Bayview or Lebreton) because we need a more central hospital along a decent transit line (the buses aren't reliable to get to the Civic, especially not if your shifts start before 6am). The fields are spectacular when viewed from the higher floors of the hospital, and losing that sight would be a shame. Studies find that just having a view of nature can calm people and help improve people's health.

[Mikeed]

The Central Experimental Farm is one of the oldest Federal institutions in Ottawa, and in Canada. It's destruction should not be treated lightly. It has, and continues to do world renowned research, including the creation of the very wheat that has turned the west into a breadbasket for the world.

It's existence makes Ottawa unique and honestly the Canada would be a better place if the triple AAA farm land around the GTA had been protected in a similar way- with urban farm fields mixed in with development. But the same developmental pressure of more soccer fields would have eaten way at those too.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Urbanarchit

Ah, but I only one or two buildings would be heritage...

True.

But I wonder how much of the hospital will actually move. Are they planning to vacate the entire current site? Or will it still house all kinds of ancillary medical services for decades to come?

And I agree they could have made better use of the current site but like many government/institutional complexes, it's planned piecemeal without really thinking of how all the future additions will fit together.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

The Central Experimental Farm is one of the oldest Federal institutions in Ottawa, and in Canada. It's destruction should not be treated lightly. It has, and continues to do world renowned research, including the creation of the very wheat that has turned the west into a breadbasket for the world.

It's existence makes Ottawa unique and honestly the Canada would be a better place if the triple AAA farm land around the GTA had been protected in a similar way- with urban farm fields mixed in with development. But the same developmental pressure of more soccer fields would have eaten way at those too.

Not exactly. Pretoria also has an experimental farm within municipal boundaries.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

True.

But I wonder how much of the hospital will actually move. Are they planning to vacate the entire current site? Or will it still house all kinds of ancillary medical services for decades to come?

And I agree they could have made better use of the current site but like many government/institutional complexes, it's planned piecemeal without really thinking of how all the future additions will fit together.

I'm pretty sure that the Heart Institute would not move, at least not in the near future. Don't know about the various clinics etc, but I expect that some will stay put.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Actually, I think that the location of the old Sir John Carling Building is a good idea. It allows better transportation connections; closer to the Trillium Line, providing road access directly from Prince of Wales Drive. It is on a site that has already been built on, so there should be no issue of protecting the land. All-in-all, I think it would be a good location.

But is that enough space for them? Take a look again at the map from page 1:



The current campus is about 25 acres, they claim they need 60 though the area in white is only about 40.

Are you including just the site of the old Sir John Carling building, or are you including everything east of Birch Drive (i.e. more-or-less to the roundabout) above the ravine, or that and the field opposite Dow's Lake next to the Trillium Line (which Google Earth identifies as Queen Julianna Park)?

Even the last option in that list isn't appreciably larger than the current campus, especially with a cliff in the site. That's not to say it wouldn't be enough since starting from scratch allows for better site planning (including integration of below grade parking facilities rather than varied above grade options) than working around existing buildings, but it's still no more land to work with.

[Richard Eade]

I was thinking about the 25+ acres, or so, bordered by Birch/Maple, Prince of Wales, Preston, and Carling. This area includes the site of the previous Sir John Carling Building and Queen Julianna Park. (Yes, the NCC temporarily named the area in honour of Queen Julianna, but the NCC is planning on developing it.)

The hospital has asked for 60 acres – which, in my opinion, is obscene. (As you correctly point out, the property being taken from Agcan is about 40 acres. I expect that the ultimate plan is to use both the old and the new areas.) Currently the hospital is a very low density institution on a 25 acres site which was built piece-meal. If the new site is properly designed, including taking advantage of the grade change, a much more efficient, dense, facility can be built.

The biggest problem with the above specified land is that it is partly controlled by the NCC directly (the park portion) and the NCC has deemed that it can make money developing that land. The NCC is not going to give up the possibility of income if they have the option of giving up Agcan land instead.

[MountainView]

The NCC should not have any of AAFC's land to begin with. The only reason they have any is because the feds transferred it over to them so they could give it to the Hospital for 'dirt' cheap (if not free / $1/yr).

The portion of land that the Carling building was on is 24.5 acres (area in red). If we include the park, which as noted the NCC plans on selling for development, is 33.5 acres (area in blue). The new hospital can be built up instead of a bunch of low rise buildings. 60 acres is insane. If they plan on using the current Hospital site (demolish and rebuild) they will have plenty of room.

[Richard Eade]

I would also suggest that the land can be extended across (over) the Trillium Line, out to Preston. Parking can be provided on the lower grade level in a multilevel structure. This would include public parking for Dow’s Great Swamp, Preston Street, and all of the development that is anticipated for the area. (I am expecting retail being added along the Carling side of the parking structure.) On top of the parking, hospital buildings can be very tall, in keeping with the surrounding buildings.

Also, because the building will span the O-Train, I would suggest that a new Carling Station be built to stretch under Carling Ave, with access on all four corners. The accesses on the hospital side should be integrated into the building.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I would also suggest that the land can be extended across (over) the Trillium Line, out to Preston. Parking can be provided on the lower grade level in a multilevel structure. This would include public parking for Dow’s Great Swamp, Preston Street, and all of the development that is anticipated for the area. (I am expecting retail being added along the Carling side of the parking structure.) On top of the parking, hospital buildings can be very tall, in keeping with the surrounding buildings.

Also, because the building will span the O-Train, I would suggest that a new Carling Station be built to stretch under Carling Ave, with access on all four corners. The accesses on the hospital side should be integrated into the building.

Yes, that was what I was thinking, extending right to Preston so there could be full integration with the Trillium Line.

I believe the main hospital buildings should be right next to and over the Trillium Line. Parking structures could be located further away from the transit line. We need to be thinking transit integration first. This is a much superior location compared to Island Park in this respect. But then, emergency vehicle access (access to the Queensway) may take precedence as far as preferred location.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Yes, that was what I was thinking, extending right to Preston so there could be full integration with the Trillium Line.

I believe the main hospital buildings should be right next to and over the Trillium Line. Parking structures could be located further away from the transit line. We need to be thinking transit integration first. This is a much superior location compared to Island Park in this respect. But then, emergency vehicle access (access to the Queensway) may take precedence as far as preferred location.

There is some access to the Queensway in this area. Rochester and Bronson have on- and off-ramps, but the on-ramp going East isn't until Metcalfe. They could just build the on-ramp at Bronson if they aren't doing that now.

One concern might be with helipad. Currently it's located across from the hospital. If they wanted to they could build a new helipad beside the hospital or on the roof (the roof would need to be specially designed to support it, and therefore would be much more costly). However, there might be an issue with the highrises nearby.

Airports have restricted height limits nearby not to interfere with flights, but I don't know if something similar exists for helicopters. It might not be a problem, but it's worth considering.

Another issue of concern is whether highrises hospitals are best. The current hospital is at its highest 8 floors, but they estimate ("they" being the fire department in the Civic) would take 10 hours to evacuate every patient, many of whom are connected to machines or have low mobility. It would be advisable to design a hospital that's more spread out and less tall with better egress routes for evacuation in case of fire that the hospital's fire department can't handle (we have a Code Red multiple times a day usually).. A highrise would take more time and effort to evacuate, unless they could put offices and some clinics higher up so that immobile patients at the lower levels could evacuate faster. It would be worth looking at how CHUM tries to account for this.

Otherwise, this is probably a much better location. It's more central, similar access, lots of residential opportunities, transit and cycling is adjacent to the site. They just need to build lots of underground parking instead of anything on the surface or parking garages. Arguably, its proximity to the Prince of Wales Parkway might make it easier for some people driving to access the hospital.

(One more thing to consider is how they would integrate the former dining hall for the SJC Building, as that is all that's left).