High Speed Rail in Canada

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The problem is Western Canada did not (and still does not) have the population density to build rail networks around early last century when rail was the only form of long distance transportation for the majority of people - Europe did. Cities were built around the railway lines and ridership formed over decades and the infrastructure was already there.

Southern Ontario actually had a very dense railway network built in the 19th and early 20th centuries that connected every city, every major town, and almost every village, too. The vast majority of these are now abandoned.

At one point Ottawa had 12 railway lines radiating out from it.

[milomilo]

Any HSR line will be fully grade separated and fenced off, so wildlife/farm animals should (in theory) be a non issue. I'm sure there would be animal bridges/tunnels too.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal HSR route would pass through the Canadian Shield for about 60km or so between Kingston and Smiths Falls (roughly paralleling the Rideau Canal). Those 60km are sparsely populated by humans, and full of lakes & forests.

I was curious about the Edmonton/Calgary corridor. I've never been out that way so I didn't/don't know what the land is like out there and how much of it is Natural and how much has been Tamed.

As for the Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal one, I did acknowledge that "Near Ottawa" there would be some very rural/natural territory. (Apparently more than I even really realized. ) The rest of that route (even if you extend to Windsor, Niagara and Quebec City) would still mainly be passing through land that has for the most part long since been tamed by man.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The Chinese northern HSR example isn't really valid. The part of China that line goes to is VERY bitterly cold, the winters are actually much worse than in populated parts of Canada. The analogy to that line would be building an HSR from Edmonton to Yellowknife, not Calgary to Edmonton or Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal.

Have another look. I don’t think Harbin is much colder than Edmonton. It’s colder than Montreal and Toronto, but I think it’s pretty close to Edmonton.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

Most of the land in the corridor, if it isn't part of any number of towns and villages, has been farmed for over a century. Biggest wildlife risks I can see (and I'm hardly an expert on this) would be in terms of wetlands and riparian zones, not from migration of land animals. For example, caribou habitat starts around 100km to the north and west of the corridor.

I wasn't really thinking about migration routes, but there are just a lot more wild animals, and perhaps some domestic ones as well (cows), that could find their way onto the track here than in Europe or China or other densely populated areas with HSR. I haven't seen any studies on what the real risk is, btw. This was just something that it seemed to me could be an issue.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Europe has a much denser freeway network than Canada.

Originally Posted by rbt

Many of the European HSR leaders have some of the more extensive and better maintained inter-city freeway systems.

You're right, but there's more to the decision to drive than the quality of highways in the region. In Germany, for example:

-the price of gas is nearly double what it is here
-car ownership per capita is ~10/less
-walking modal share in Berlin, Munich, and Hamburg are around 4 x that of Toronto's
-cycling modal share in Berlin, Munich, and Hamburg are around 6 x that of Toronto's
-private vehicle modal share in Berlin, Munich, and Hamburg are around 2/3 that of Toronto's

Of course, maybe this is a chicken-and-the-egg thing ... I'm all for HSR!

Maybe I'm just bringing up Canada's commitment to highways, since AB has just committed $5B to Calgary's SW ring road, following a couple billion for the rest of the ring, a couple billion for Edmonton's ring road, $1B for Hwy 63 twinning, all while there has been no commitment to HSR or LRT in Calgary (although, to be fair, Calgary just finished a $1B LRT leg a couple years ago, and Edmonton is currently expanding their system). My point is that competing with major highway projects for funding may be a major hindrance to HSR progress. It seems as though, for every billion we spend on transit capital, we spend 5-10 billion on roads. At a municipal level, it is much closer to 50/50 in both Calgary and Edmonton.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by Allan83

First off, the old studies (2008) showed that for a 320 km/h train the ridership in 2021 would be more like 10,000 per day as a base case estimate, and 15,000 as a best case estimate*, and since then our population growth has trended towards the best case line. Keep in mind that the Calgary-Edmonton corridor has “the highest trip generation rate in North American city pairs, about three to four times the Toronto-Montreal trip generation rate.”** So if you’re familiar with the traffic numbers between other cities you can’t just transfer that over and do a rough approximation. There is a LOT more traffic between Edmonton and Calgary, and in the corridor in general, than there is between other cities.

As for why they haven’t gone ahead yet, I think there are still some big technical issues, and that may be why no real blue chip candidates have stepped forward with proposals. The only other true high speed train that’s as far north that I know of is one in China, and they’ve been having troubles in the winter and have had to slow down the trains substantially in the winter. I also wonder about all the wildlife we have along the line, and the impact of impacts. How far does a deer fly when you bounce it off the nose of a train going 320 km/h, for example? In many ways I think an elevated line would be better, and studies say that elevated maglevs are getting much cheaper, for example, but there’s only one currently in operation, and it’s a dated version of this technology, so we’d really have to do our homework before deciding to go with that one. And currently I don’t think any private company is proposing to build a line with that technology. So, still many questions.


*see p. 6/7 here: http://www.vanhorne.info/node/267
** http://www.assembly.ab.ca/committees...l%20Report.pdf

Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The Chinese northern HSR example isn't really valid. The part of China that line goes to is VERY bitterly cold, the winters are actually much worse than in populated parts of Canada. The analogy to that line would be building an HSR from Edmonton to Yellowknife, not Calgary to Edmonton or Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal.

January in Harbin, China (nicknamed "Ice City" for it's frigid Siberian winters, near the northern extreme of China's HSR)
Average high: -12.5
Daily Mean: -18.3
Average low: -24.1
Record Low: -38.1
Percipitation: 3.4 mm

January in Calgary
Average high: -0.9
Daily Mean: -7.1
Average low: -13.2
Record Low: -44.4
Percipitation: 9.4 mm

So, yes, on average the line in China could be colder, but Alberta has more snow, more extreme cold, and greater day-to-day temperature variations. Edmonton and other points along the track may be worse. Surely the HSR lines through the passes of the Alps encounter similar problems, no? What about lines in Scandinavia? Winter is Canada's nemesis and can be overcome!

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

January in Harbin, China (nicknamed "Ice City" for it's frigid Siberian winters, near the northern extreme of China's HSR)
Average high: -12.5
Daily Mean: -18.3
Average low: -24.1
Record Low: -38.1
Percipitation: 3.4 mm

January in Calgary
Average high: -0.9
Daily Mean: -7.1
Average low: -13.2
Record Low: -44.4
Percipitation: 9.4 mm

So, yes, on average the line in China could be colder, but Alberta has more snow, more extreme cold, and greater day-to-day temperature variations. Edmonton and other points along the track may be worse. Surely the HSR lines through the passes of the Alps encounter similar problems, no? What about lines in Scandinavia? Winter is Canada's nemesis and can be overcome!

Swedish trains are only semi-high speed. Their top speed is 200 km/h, but they’re also looking into the possibility of using the German maglev trains.

Study into magnet-trains - 2014
http://www.ft.dk/samling/20131/almde...88/1341701.pdf

Some of the trains in the Alps go through extremely long tunnels. HSR needs long, straight, fairly level track, so maybe where there aren't tunnels they slow down through the mountains.

Edit:
“Switzerland has no high-speed trains of its own yet. French TGV (TGV Lyria) and German ICE lines extend into Switzerland, but given the dense rail traffic, short distances between Swiss cities (because of the country's small size) and the often difficult terrain, they do not attain speeds higher than 200 km/h (ICE3) or 160 km/h (TGV, ICE1, ICE2).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-sp...pe#Switzerland

[Taeolas]

I was watching a recent ep of Top Gear (UK); a "race" between getting from London to Milan via Car vs HSR. Once the train got into the Alps, the hosts were lamenting at how slow they had to go, due to the incline, the curves ,and all the stops it had to make. I have no clue how truthful that is, but it does make a bit of sense.

[Acajack]

I just wanted to mention another factor that is a plus for HSR, but which is never mentioned by anyone: the fear or at least unease with flying.

Apparently some 25% of the population is either aerophobic or at least not super comfortable with the idea of being on airborne plane.

I am one of them though not extremely aerophobic. I have flown oodles of times as there is often no other practical choice or because of time constraints.

If I could go to Toronto by train as fast (or at least comparably) in total time as it takes by plane, then I'd take the train every single time I have to go there.

I am sure there are many people like me.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Southern Ontario actually had a very dense railway network built in the 19th and early 20th centuries that connected every city, every major town, and almost every village, too. The vast majority of these are now abandoned.

At one point Ottawa had 12 railway lines radiating out from it.

Yeah - the east of North America is much better in this regard, and that's why it's these areas that make the most sense for HSR. There's already proven demand for rail transit, the cities are somewhat built around railways and the network effects will be far greater.

[vegeta_skyline]

Originally Posted by Allan83

The only other true high speed train that’s as far north that I know of is one in China, and they’ve been having troubles in the winter and have had to slow down the trains substantially in the winter.

True. Our current highest standard and best maintained track(CWR, class 5), is frequently subject to system-wide TSO(Temporary slow orders) of 60mph for passenger trains once temperatures drop below -30. HSR track would of course be built to an even higher standard but I can't imagine that it would be able to safety operate anywhere near top speed at those temperatures.

How far does a deer fly when you bounce it off the nose of a train going 320 km/h, for example?

It doesn't, it disintegrates. A person basically comes apart at 90mph, a deer may be more robust than a human but nothing is going to remain intact considering the kinetic energy involved with an impact at 320mph. Thought that's not to say it won't cause any problems for the train.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

In Toronto, the urban approach will be decently fast as the rail corridors going into the city are all being upgraded to high standards as part of the GO RER project.

Only one corridor is being/needs to be upgraded, the Weston sub. The eastern 'urban approach' to Union station has been relatively fast for a very long time.
Coming in from Montreal, the track speed all way from Oshawa(mile 302.2) to Union station(mile 333.8) is in the range of 85mph to 100mph except for two tiny stretches of 75 & 80mph. It doesn't drop considerably(to 60mph) until your less than 3 miles away from Union. The only improvement that is coming is at last mile(mile 332.2 to 333.2) where the speed will be upgraded from 30 to 60mph, saving precisely one minute.

Originally Posted by Aylmer

By reducing both fuel costs (with lighter DMU vehicles), travel times and crew requirements (by modifying the rules surrounding on-board crew requirements

Not debating the merit of your point but realistically there is absolutely zero appetite for such right now and going forward, post Chatsworth post Lac-Mégantic. Metrolinx was seriously considering implementing such for its new Union-Person express but they voluntarily abandoned that plan/idea(not sure it even got to the planning stage) before TC even had the opportunity to scrutinize it. As most people know the railways are largely self-regulated, in addition they salivate(especially the freight carriers) at the mere prospect of reducing crewing requirements. Yet despite this, all movement towards lessening the crewing requirements in the industry has virtually grinned to a halt and in fact has become more restrictive in some areas re; minimum two crew standard now in effect for trains carrying dangerous goods. I may stand to be corrected but I have a hard time believing these standard will lessen by the time any HSR line comes into service, say 10 years from now. Aside from that I think the actual cost of crewing is exaggerated. One additional crew member may add 1 to 2 dollars per fare, for a train of 400-500 people - this is taking into account all costs not just wages. I'm pretty sure that will hold up well in any cost-benefit analysis.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

I was watching a recent ep of Top Gear (UK); a "race" between getting from London to Milan via Car vs HSR. Once the train got into the Alps, the hosts were lamenting at how slow they had to go, due to the incline, the curves ,and all the stops it had to make. I have no clue how truthful that is, but it does make a bit of sense.

I'm pretty sure that is the exact plot of an episode of Thomas the Tank Engine.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by vegeta_skyline

True. Our current highest standard and best maintained track(CWR, class 5), is frequently subject to system-wide TSO(Temporary slow orders) of 60mph for passenger trains once temperatures drop below -30. HSR track would of course be built to an even higher standard but I can't imagine that it would be able to safety operate anywhere near top speed at those temperatures.

How often does it drop to -30 Celsius (windchill doesn't matter to metal) during regular operating hours (6am to 1am) around Toronto?

I checked East York weather records for 2008, 2009 and 2014 (they were convenient to access). Toronto only dropped below -20 for 4 days in those 3 years, both they were all above -25.

[Mikemike]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

I'm pretty sure that is the exact plot of an episode of Thomas the Tank Engine.

But he was racing Bertie the Bus. Thrilling!

[1overcosc]

In Southern Ontario it's rare for temperatures to drop below -30. When it does happen, it's almost always in the middle of the night, for only a few nights in the entire winter. It wouldn't be much of an issue for an HSR to be given a slow order for those rare occasions. Whereas for Calgary-Edmonton, while going below -30 is still fairly rare it's more common, and it can easily happen in the daytime when slow-orders can be more disruptive.

Rail is one of the most weatherproof forms of transportation known to man. It's actually the most logical choice of transport for Canada for that reason.

Regarding the crew reduction discussion, I think Aylmer's point was more the benefits of regulatory reforms allowing multiple-unit trains to replace passenger locomotives.

[Innsertnamehere]

actual -30 tempuratures almost never occur, it only gets that low with windchill. -20ish is about as low as it gets in southern ontario.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

actual -30 tempuratures almost never occur, it only gets that low with windchill. -20ish is about as low as it gets in southern ontario.

Huh. I double checked my numbers and you're right, even in Ottawa (the coldest city in southern Ontario) -30C is rare. The last time the temperature in Ottawa dipped below -30C was on January 24, 2011.

[vegeta_skyline]

Originally Posted by rbt

How often does it drop to -30 Celsius (windchill doesn't matter to metal) during regular operating hours (6am to 1am) around Toronto?

I checked East York weather records for 2008, 2009 and 2014 (they were convenient to access). Toronto only dropped below -20 for 4 days in those 3 years, both they were all above -25.

Allan83 was referring to HSR in Alberta, I was agreeing that it might pose a significant problem there not here in Ontario.

I mentioned that we are "frequently subject to system-wide TSO(Temporary slow orders) of 60mph for passenger trains once temperatures drop below -30". I suppose I should elaborate on what I meant. Everyday we get a DOB or TGBO, basically its a set of documents/paperwork listing the track restrictions that we may encounter on our intended route. During the colder days of the winter its very common to see a system-wide GBO(basically an individual note referencing a specific restriction) telling us that if the temperature drops below a certain point(usually -30 but sometimes -20) we are to proceed at a reduced speed(usually 60mph for passenger trains, less for freight). It's indeed very rare that this restriction actually comes into play in the GTA and of course it doesn't happen during the day, but nonetheless its frequently listed in there.