Western Expresso

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

What you are suggesting is impractical and nonsensical. There are many people with an education out there barely making it by, working minimum wage jobs. There just isn't enough good-paying jobs out there in this world of automation, globalization, consolidation and vertical integration. Also, as Authentic_City has alluded to, you can't fit square pegs in round holes. There are going to be many people out there who just aren't fit for the few good paying jobs that are available.

You're right, there are only so many good paying jobs available. It is your job as an individual to make yourself the best version of whatever the employer requires to ensure you obtain that job and wage that you want. If you are unable to accomplish that then you will not obtain the wage that you feel you want or are worth.

I don't understand the problem with that? I think people have it wrong. It is everyone responsibility to push society forward by rewarding the best with the best, not holding them back to help help those that can't keep up.

Progress is the only thing society should be concerned with. Improving technology, being less of a burden on the planet, helping Musk get to Mars, figuring out how to create live on a dead planet, discovering all the universe has to offer.

But no, Curmudeon needs his trip to Turk and Caicos because Winnipeg is cold in the winter.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Sorry, but not true. Sure, there is no shortage of folks who want these jobs, but not all applicants are qualified. But hey, if you want to include those who can't pass the test, don't meet physical fitness requirements, don't pass the background checks, you could build yourself a nice little police force.

Plenty of qualified worthy candidates are passed over every year at both the WPS and WFPS, with details of their salaries and benefits public knowledge don't think for minute that they couldn't find more than enough qualified applicants! Right now it's like winning a lottery getting into either service, of course a friend or family member on either service really helps!

It's sad that here in Winnipeg that the WPS and WFPS are looked at as plum jobs it's an overall sign that maybe the economy here isn't as robust as many think especially when most are employed by one level of govt. or another directly or indirectly! There isn't really a lot of wealth creation here despite what some believe!

The role of govt. needs to be to facilitate growth and jobs in the private sector and not to have everyone employed in the public sector as the past NDP govt. was trying to do!~

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by dmacc

You're right, there are only so many good paying jobs available. It is your job as an individual to make yourself the best version of whatever the employer requires to ensure you obtain that job and wage that you want. If you are unable to accomplish that then you will not obtain the wage that you feel you want or are worth.

I don't understand the problem with that? I think people have it wrong. It is everyone responsibility to push society forward by rewarding the best with the best, not holding them back to help help those that can't keep up.

Progress is the only thing society should be concerned with. Improving technology, being less of a burden on the planet, helping Musk get to Mars, figuring out how to create live on a dead planet, discovering all the universe has to offer.

But no, Curmudeon needs his trip to Turk and Caicos because Winnipeg is cold in the winter.

The problem is there is very little room at the top no matter how hard someone works. As a society, we have to be worried about this and the fact only the top 20% of income earners are actually increasing their wealth. Writing it off as an expected outcome gets us no where.

[dmacc]

Also, you who complain about the 1% getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Try to look a little internally, what are you willing to give up to help those who are struggling? Would you give up a trip to Turks and Caicos to help? In many cases most of you are being hypocritical because YOU are the global 1%.

https://www.diygenius.com/the-global...ality-problem/

[Authentic_City]

^Sorry, but simply saying something doesn't make it true. I've heard lots of stories of supposedly qualified people unable to get on with the WPS, but then it turns out there is a reason they are passed over. If they want to be a cop so badly, they could easily move to Edmonton, Calgary, RCMP, etc. and get on. If they are truly qualified. There is a shortage of qualified recruits nationally.

Also, it's not just Winnipeg that pays police like this. It's nationwide. So how is this a poor reflection on Winnipeg's economy? Cops in Edmonton and Calgary earn more. It's like winning the lottery in any Canadian city.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

^Sorry, but simply saying something doesn't make it true. I've heard lots of stories of supposedly qualified people unable to get on with the WPS, but then it turns out there is a reason they are passed over. If they want to be a cop so badly, they could easily move to Edmonton, Calgary, RCMP, etc. and get on. If they are truly qualified. There is a shortage of qualified recruits nationally.

Also, it's not just Winnipeg that pays police like this. It's nationwide. So how is this a poor reflection on Winnipeg's economy? Cops in Edmonton and Calgary earn more. It's like winning the lottery in any Canadian city.

You're contradicting yourself, you say there is a shortage of qualified recruits (which there isn't) and they you say it's like winning a lottery in any Canadian city ( as in so many recruits to choose from)

Actually getting onto the police force in Calgary or Edmonton is no easier than here, that's another myth. Sure Calgary and Edmonton hire from outside their jurisdictions but they want trained police officers looking to move from other locales which saves them the expense of training!

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

^ The myth that hard work, intelligence, ability etc. solely determine a person's economic well-being has been empirically debunked. Social capital, family wealth and social standing are better predictors of economic success of children. Some the dimmest and laziest people I went to highschool with had wealthy parents and are doing just fine today because they were set up in the family business or some other venture bankrolled by the parents.

And what if you're just not naturally intelligent? Should you be subjected to a lifetime of poverty for that? Not everyone has the capacity to work in STEM. Everyone that contributes something to society should at least be able to get by. After that, the more skilled positions can earn much more obviously, but we should still work towards a floor that somewhat resembles a decent life, not hardship.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by dmacc

You're right, there are only so many good paying jobs available. It is your job as an individual to make yourself the best version of whatever the employer requires to ensure you obtain that job and wage that you want. If you are unable to accomplish that then you will not obtain the wage that you feel you want or are worth.

I don't understand the problem with that? I think people have it wrong. It is everyone responsibility to push society forward by rewarding the best with the best, not holding them back to help help those that can't keep up.

Progress is the only thing society should be concerned with. Improving technology, being less of a burden on the planet, helping Musk get to Mars, figuring out how to create live on a dead planet, discovering all the universe has to offer.

But no, Curmudeon needs his trip to Turk and Caicos because Winnipeg is cold in the winter.

I would think society should be more concerned with ensuring the well-being of everyone within it before getting to Mars.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I would think society should be more concerned with ensuring the well-being of everyone within it before getting to Mars.

Innovations in the space industry have led to countless improvements in the well being of people with medical advancements.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/in...n-medicine.htm

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2008/tech_benefits.html

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by dmacc

Innovations in the space industry have led to countless improvements in the well being of people with medical advancements.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/in...n-medicine.htm

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2008/tech_benefits.html

Maybe, but I think you know that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not talking in absolutes. Space exploration is cool and all, but innovation is only useful when its benefits are accessible to all.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Maybe, but I think you know that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not talking in absolutes. Space exploration is cool and all, but innovation is only useful when its benefits are accessible to all.

What are you willing to give up to ensure there is funding for people to access to everything you do? Will you give up your pension? Pay more in taxes? give up property?

Things become more accessible when they become commodities, before that only people of a certain means can afford, until a new innovation comes along to lower the cost.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by dmacc

What are you willing to give up to ensure there is funding for people to access to everything you do? Will you give up your pension? Pay more in taxes? give up property?

Things become more accessible when they become commodities, before that only people of a certain means can afford, until a new innovation comes along to lower the cost.

Good thing we live in a mixed-market social democracy with wealth redistribution so we don't have to rely on individuals to lift up society. Libertarianism, which it sounds like you are suggesting, would never work and would lead to the total collapse of our society.

Ps There's absolutely nothing a regular individual can do on their own to help with economic inequality. I am willing to pay more in taxes to improve inequality and better prepare our country for the future. The key is having that money spent wisely.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Good thing we live in a mixed-market social democracy with wealth redistribution so we don't have to rely on individuals to lift up society. Libertarianism, which it sounds like you are suggesting, would never work and would lead to the total collapse of our society.

Ps There's absolutely nothing a regular individual can do on their own to help with economic inequality. I am willing to pay more in taxes to improve inequality and better prepare our country for the future. The key is having that money spent wisely.

I rather enjoy my universal health care, education roads and infrastructure and security funded through government. I'm saying it isn't possible for everyone to be pulled along. It is not economically feasible. I believe in everyone being expected to provide their fair share, flat tax.

Communism, which it sounds like you are suggesting, would never work and would lead to the total collapse of our society.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I rather enjoy my universal health care, education roads and infrastructure and security funded through government. I'm saying it isn't possible for everyone to be pulled along. It is not economically feasible. I believe in everyone being expected to provide their fair share, flat tax.

Communism, which it sounds like you are suggesting, would never work and would lead to the total collapse of our society.

Lol communism? Really? That’s what you think I’m suggesting? Try again. I have suggested to lower inequality, not get rid of it.

Btw, life isn’t fair. Go down to a homeless shelter, or a mental health ward or cancer ward at a hospital. Just like it’s impractical to expect full equality, the same should be said about “fairness”. Asking higher income workers like myself to pay more in taxes might not be fair but it’s subjectively the right thing to do and objectively, according to history and many economists, the practical thing to do. Unless you really aren’t concerned with where society will be once all the wealth is concentrated at the top. How has that worked out for us in the past? Ever heard of the Great Depression?

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Lol communism? Really? That’s what you think I’m suggesting? Try again. I have suggested to lower inequality, not get rid of it.

Btw, life isn’t fair. Go down to a homeless shelter, or a mental health ward or cancer ward at a hospital. Just like it’s impractical to expect full equality, the same should be said about “fairness”. Asking higher income workers like myself to pay more in taxes might not be fair but it’s subjectively the right thing to do and objectively, according to a majority of economists, the practical thing to do. Unless you really aren’t concerned with where society will be once all the wealth is concentrated at the top.

haha, I know that was a stretch but the communism comment is the same as calling me a libertarian.

Almost seems strange that I want fairness and you want equality and we're on opposite sides of the spectrum. My mother has been refused certain services, she has MS and is wheel chair bound, because my dad's income is too high but he can't afford the service on his own. Why should someone of lesser means be granted a lift to get in and out of her home but my mother can't because my dad doesn't have $10,000. Suggesting I need a lesson in the lack of fairness in live isn't needed.

I don't know where you get that a majority of economists suggest it's the right thing to do. 8 US states use it and so does the UK and they seem to be doing just fine. Maybe the UK more so on the social equality front.

[Roger Strong]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I would think society should be more concerned with ensuring the well-being of everyone within it before getting to Mars.

Spending on the US space program was chopped and Saturn V production capped in the mid-1960s, before the first moon landing. Based on the same concern you give above.

That was 50 years ago. Is everything fixed yet? Do you need a couple more years?

There are 7 billion people in the world. If a few thousand concentrate on building rockets, it's not going stop the rest from coming up with a solution. In order to fix suffering we need social/political solution. Not a scientific one, and not a financial one.

And why space exploration? We spend far more tax dollars (let alone private money) on professional sports so that teams full of millionaires can play against each other. Why not cut THAT until you've ensured the well-being of everyone? Or maybe skip the occasional war?

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by dmacc

haha, I know that was a stretch but the communism comment is the same as calling me a libertarian.

Almost seems strange that I want fairness and you want equality and we're on opposite sides of the spectrum. My mother has been refused certain services, she has MS and is wheel chair bound, because my dad's income is too high but he can't afford the service on his own. Why should someone of lesser means be granted a lift to get in and out of her home but my mother can't because my dad doesn't have $10,000. Suggesting I need a lesson in the lack of fairness in live isn't needed.

It seems your expectations for your father isn't the same as it is for others, especially those with lesser means.

Originally Posted by dmacc

I don't know where you get that a majority of economists suggest it's the right thing to do. 8 US states use it and so does the UK and they seem to be doing just fine. Maybe the UK more so on the social equality front.

Really? I'm no expert on the UK but they have been having serious problems lately, particularly with the funding of their health care system. Also look what happened to Alberta when oil prices sank. They could have used a progressive tax system to have those with more means to contribute to a contingency fund of some sort or to diversify their economy, instead of having their oil-based economy crash. Could have saved many of them their entire incomes for only a little more in tax payments. Take a look at the highest performing economies coupled with the highest standard of living in the world and let me know what you find out about their tax systems.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

It seems your expectations for your father isn't the same as it is for others, especially those with lesser means.

I believe in Health equality not health equity. Everyone should have the same level of access to everything. If it's offered to you it's offered to me. I don't believe in providing extra to someone because of how much they make or where in the city they live.

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Really? I'm no expert on the UK but they have been having serious problems lately, particularly with the funding of their health care system. Also look what happened to Alberta when oil prices sank. They could have used a progressive tax system to have those with more means to contribute to a contingency fund of some sort or to diversify their economy, instead of having their oil-based economy crash. Could have saved many of them their entire incomes for only a little more in tax payments. Take a look at the highest performing economies coupled with the highest standard of living in the world and let me know what you find out about their tax systems.

I believe most of the issues in the UK are due to Brexit and not their tax system. Their economy is likely to shrink which will mean less mean less tax revenue for public services. Brexit isn't the fault of the UK government but the citizen who voted to leave in the referendum. The people have no one to blame but themselves for that problem.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I believe in Health equality not health equity. Everyone should have the same level of access to everything. If it's offered to you it's offered to me. I don't believe in providing extra to someone because of how much they make or where in the city they live.

I agree with you for the most part. People with higher incomes can afford secondary health insurance that may cover things like your mother's wheelchair, while the poor and jobless cannot however.

Originally Posted by dmacc

I believe most of the issues in the UK are due to Brexit and not their tax system. Their economy is likely to shrink which will mean less mean less tax revenue for public services. Brexit isn't the fault of the UK government but the citizen who voted to leave in the referendum. The people have no one to blame but themselves for that problem.

I also agree with you here somewhat on Brexit. It seems pretty obvious though that they got a "leave" majority in the same way Trump got in office in the US: with the help of propaganda and a misinformation campaign by Russians with the goal of destabilizing the West.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

You're contradicting yourself, you say there is a shortage of qualified recruits (which there isn't) and they you say it's like winning a lottery in any Canadian city ( as in so many recruits to choose from)

Actually getting onto the police force in Calgary or Edmonton is no easier than here, that's another myth. Sure Calgary and Edmonton hire from outside their jurisdictions but they want trained police officers looking to move from other locales which saves them the expense of training!

Again, just 'cause you say it's so, doesn't make it so. And there's no contradiction. I'm just saying being a cop or firefighter is a well paying job in any major Canadian city. It's not a Winnipeg thing. Major police services from outside the province regularly send recruiters to Winnipeg colleges and universities. I know you won't believe it, but it's hard to find enough qualified recruits. The RCMP has actually lowered some of its requirements.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp...ay-1-1.3561511

Obviously it's even better if you can poach trained officers, but they'll take any good applicants at this point.