French language-related stuff

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

Where did you hear that Quebecers look down upon proper Acadian French? Iv never heard this. Acadian French actually sounds better than Quebec French, the accent is much cleaner.

I've heard this from every Acadian and Brayon in Grand Falls and (especially) Edmonston with whom I've spoken about this topic.

My francophone friends from Edmonston who worked in call centres in Moncton frequently tell me horror stories about their customers from Quebec, who say rude things like...'Oh, you should just speak English so I can understand you better.'

The separate francophone groups in Canada, I've found, are oddly critical of each other's dialects.

You, yourself, are seeming to be quite the French language critic. 'Proper' Acadian French is better than Quebec French, eh?

There are African immigrants living in Moncton who would disagree with you.

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I've heard this from every Acadian and Brayon in Grand Falls and (especially) Edmonston with whom I've spoken about this topic.

My francophone friends from Edmonston who worked in call centres in Moncton frequently tell me horror stories about their customers from Quebec, who say rude things like...'Oh, you should just speak English so I can understand you better.'

The separate francophone groups in Canada, I've found, are oddly critical of each other's dialects.

You, yourself, are seeming to be quite the French language critic. 'Proper' Acadian French is better than Quebec French, eh?

There are African immigrants living in Moncton who would disagree with you.

I'm guessing those who are being criticised are speaking Chiac as many in the call centres of Moncton do. I don't like to call my self a language critic, but I think its important to master ones language. Chiac just seems like a very lazy way to speak French.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

I'm guessing those who are being criticised are speaking Chiac as many in the call centres of Moncton do. I don't like to call my self a language critic, but I think its important to master ones language. Chiac just seems like a very lazy way to speak French.

These Brayons working in Moncton call centres don't speak Chiac. The dialect of French in Edmonston is quite similar to what you find in Quebec. And yet there are still awfully harsh criticisms from Quebecers.

Do you feel as though Modern English is lazy for adopting words from other languages, instead of exclusively creating its own?

Everyone I know who speaks Chiac can also speak General Canadian French; however, they are choosing to speak Chiac for cultural reasons. I don't except it to stop, considering the degree to which anglophones and francophones in the Moncton area intermarry.

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

These Brayons working in Moncton call centres don't speak Chiac. The dialect of French in Edmonston is quite similar to what you find in Quebec. And yet there are still awfully harsh criticisms from Quebecers.

Do you feel as though Modern English is lazy for adopting words from other languages, instead of exclusively creating its own?

Everyone I know who speaks Chiac can also speak General Canadian French; however, they are choosing to speak Chiac for cultural reasons. I don't except it to stop, considering the degree to which anglophones and francophones in the Moncton area intermarry.

Cultural reasons? What Cultural reasons are those? Proximity to English speakers?

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

Cultural reasons? What Cultural reasons are those? Proximity to English speakers?

Well, the Acadian community considered itself distinct from the global French community before Le Grand Dérengement even occurred. So it makes sense that Acadians in general would not have a strong regard for the French language and would be proud of their own dialect, even if it is basically just a hybrid of English and French. It speaks to the history of this culture much better than 100% French (or 100% English) would.

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Well, the Acadian community considered itself distinct from the global French community before Le Grand Dérengement even occurred. So it makes sense that Acadians in general would not have a strong regard for the French language and would be proud of their own dialect, even if it is basically just a hybrid of English and French. It speaks to the history of this culture much better than 100% French (or 100% English) would.

Well the Acadian language is unique in the fact that it still uses words that have long since been forgotten in other dialects. We should be very proud of this, as our isolation has given us something very unique. Chiac on the other hand seems like a more modern phenomenon, and I hope that it isn't the future of the Acadian language in general.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Well, the Acadian community considered itself distinct from the global French community before Le Grand Dérengement even occurred. So it makes sense that Acadians in general would not have a strong regard for the French language and would be proud of their own dialect, even if it is basically just a hybrid of English and French. It speaks to the history of this culture much better than 100% French (or 100% English) would.

Perhaps, but they certainly never considered themselves a French-English hybrid. Even today most Acadians do not speak Chiac, and the vast majority don't consider themselves to be the product of some French-English meshing. The only people who would feel that way are people who are born of one francophone and one anglophone parent, and these are a fairly small minority. Plus, most of these 50-50 people would probably speak primarily English as a first language, not Chiac. Most Chiac speakers are descended from two Acadian parents.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

Cultural reasons? What Cultural reasons are those? Proximity to English speakers?

A separate identity, away from other francophone and anglophone groups, speaking a dialect they share with friends and family. You make it seem as though they are surrendering to English speakers.

They are not.

They have chosen to incorporate English into their French, just as northern Acadians have to a degree, just as dialects in France have to a degree.

[Acajack]

Can someone tell me where the French - Chiac discussion went (if anywhere?). I have a bunch of things to say!

[Acajack]

Oh yeah, and all this stuff about people in Quebec hating the Acadian accent is greatly overstated. I live in Quebec and do not have an Acadian accent (so people are not just being polite) and I overhear many more positive comments than negative ones. Many people here are quite curious about the colloquialisms and archaisms of Acadian French, and also find it quite charming and endearing.

[cormiermax]

100% agree with what Acajack said.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh yeah, and all this stuff about people in Quebec hating the Acadian accent is greatly overstated.

I've spoken to a few people in Quebec who thought that Acadians spoke "fake" French (or that all New Brunswickers can only form sentences that are half English and half French) but that is a classic self-reinforcing stereotype. If you start by assuming that people of group X do Y, everything you see will be consistent with your theory.

A lot of the comments on Quebec French are pretty similar. The reality is that there isn't one Quebec dialect or accent, and there seems to have been a strong shift toward more standardized French over the past 3 generations or so (just as there has been a shift toward standard English -- if you want to hear some strange accents, just listen to some recording from the Maritimes in the 20's or 30's).

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh yeah, and all this stuff about people in Quebec hating the Acadian accent is greatly overstated. I live in Quebec and do not have an Acadian accent (so people are not just being polite) and I overhear many more positive comments than negative ones. Many people here are quite curious about the colloquialisms and archaisms of Acadian French, and also find it quite charming and endearing.

I have spoken with far too many Brayons and Acadians -- and have personally witnessed far too many rude encounters between local francophones and Québécois tourists -- to accept your claim that what I'm suggesting may be overstated.

To be clear, I never intended to convey that the majority of Québécois 'hate' Acadian dialects of French. I would surmise that there is a fair bit of criticism between francophone groups, at least compared to anglophone groups in North America.

The number of Quebec enthusiasts for Acadian French I've personally met have been very few indeed; though, I admit, I have met some. I am relieved by you're reinforcement of this.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I have spoken with far too many Brayons and Acadians -- and have personally witnessed far too many rude encounters between local francophones and Québécois tourists -- to accept your claim that what I'm suggesting may be overstated.

To be clear, I never intended to convey that the majority of Québécois 'hate' Acadian dialects of French. I would surmise that there is a fair bit of criticism between francophone groups, at least compared to anglophone groups in North America.

The number of Quebec enthusiasts for Acadian French I've personally met have been very few indeed; though, I admit, I have met some. I am relieved by you're reinforcement of this.

FYI, this stuff is actually quite popular in Quebec. Like mainstream:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cRPH4lb8UI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF7DW_mZatA

Lisa Leblanc was actually one of the biggest winners at the most recent Quebec music awards.

And this Radio Radio song was featured in a hugely popular TV commercial in Quebec.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Biggest news story here:

People in France hate all forms of Canadian French and can't understand our phrasing and accents for the most part.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Biggest news story here:

People in France hate all forms of Canadian French and can't understand our phrasing and accents for the most part.

And what is this based on?

Interesting your should refer to ''OUR phrasing and accents'' - are you a native French-speaking Canadian? If not, why do you feel qualified to speak on our behalf?

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And what is this based on?

Interesting your should refer to ''OUR phrasing and accents'' - are you a native French-speaking Canadian? If not, why do you feel qualified to speak on our behalf?

Obviously not everyone. If I were to make a judgement call, some even bring it up before I even ask if they know about Quebec.

Its sort of like Latin American spanish with Spain. I find most Latin American Spanish actually easier to understand and better to Spain's Espanol (everybody bickers and looks down on the other ones, or certain ones). I'm not saying I view it as worse, I've just seen the discrimination in action time and time again. I also find it ignorant that many of us with some relatives in the province of Quebec ignore the multi-cultural ancestry of everybody, mainly Irish and French, but with common language. Also, any french relatives were not really the best friends of france in the colonie

I lived in Quebec for over 5 years, have some Quebecois ancestry and get made fun of when my french pronounce things or use sayings that aren't common in France. Vous form? Didn't even know it existed before my first time living to France (hyperbole). I'd say I've met a representative sample size for the population that espouses these negative beliefs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I also find it ignorant that many of us with some relatives in the province of Quebec ignore the multi-cultural ancestry of everybody, mainly Irish and French, but with common language. .

Not sure what you mean by this. Francophones who are of Irish descent in Quebec are considered totally Québécois by everyone.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I lived in Quebec for over 5 years, have some Quebecois ancestry and get made fun of when my french pronounce things or use sayings that aren't common in France. Vous form? Didn't even know it existed before my first time living to France (hyperbole). I'd say I've met a representative sample size for the population that espouses these negative beliefs.

I know you said hyperbole but seriously, native French-speaking Canadians learn the vous (vs. tu) form around the time they are five years old.

Once again, a lot of this seems to come from being a native speaker vs. a non-native speaker.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know you said hyperbole but seriously, native French-speaking Canadians learn the vous (vs. tu) form around the time they are five years old.

Once again, a lot of this seems to come from being a native speaker vs. a non-native speaker.

It's burned into my brain through thousands of repetitions throughout public school... I guess colloquially it isn't as common in Canada? But yeah I think even non-immersion French students get bombarded with conjugation exercises which invariably include je, tu, il/elle/on, nous, vous, ils/elles.