Tsawwassen First Nation Updates

[phesto]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

This thing will never get built, IMHO. Tooooooo far from major trade market areas in an already over-built Metro retail market.

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

I still believe that it's a pipedream from an access/market/development/economic perspective.

Trust me, Ivanhoe Cambridge has done their homework. And they aren't relying on the approx. 5,000 new residents planned for the adjacent TFN lands over the next 10+ years to materialize.

At 1.2M sq ft, it will be a large super-regional, and as Jlo said, people will go to it. I don't think the distance or access will be much of a factor, particularly given relatively short distance to Surrey, Richmond, and the ferries.

I find it funny when people argue that Metro Van has an overbuilt retail market despite the fact that it is among the lowest in NA, even moreso if you look at enclosed malls that many retailers prefer due to its predictability for traffic (unlike streetfront/strata/lifestyle retail which can vary wildly based on location).

Demand from retailers looking to lease will be the determining factor and given IC's due diligence on these large scale projects, they probably already have large-scale retailers lined up (think Walmart). The smaller retailers take more time and closer to actual completion, but they will follow.

Certainly the fact that they could get a large site easily and without the amount of red-tape from other municipalities was a plus, but they don't gamble on large malls without doing vast amounts of research on the market/trade area/demographics etc, and they already know the region based on their existing assets (Metrotown, Guildford Town centre, Oakridge, Richmond Centre).

[idunno]

http://formretail.catylist.com/jsp/l...?ID=55_2108984
-There's also a rendering there

Phase I is 619,000 sq ft., enclosed mall by 2012

Phase II is a 1,200,000 sq ft enclosed mall - 2014

So at a proposed 1,819,000 sq ft, this will be the largest mall in BC (Metrotown is 1,783,000 sq ft), if you include all components of the development.

I'm imagining something like the Supermall of the Great Northwest south of Seattle.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by phesto

Trust me, Ivanhoe Cambridge has done their homework. And they aren't relying on the approx. 5,000 new residents planned for the adjacent TFN lands over the next 10+ years to materialize.

At 1.2M sq ft, it will be a large super-regional, and as Jlo said, people will go to it. I don't think the distance or access will be much of a factor, particularly given relatively short distance to Surrey, Richmond, and the ferries.

Certainly the fact that they could get a large site easily and without the amount of red-tape from other municipalities was a plus, but they don't gamble on large malls without doing vast amounts of research on the market/trade area/demographics etc, and they already know the region based on their existing assets (Metrotown, Guildford Town centre, Oakridge, Richmond Centre).

I fully appreciate and I agree with much of what you are saying. I've been involved with 3 smaller ones over the years (80,000 - 100,000 sq. ft.) and was very conservative and detailed in terms of due diligence.

Neverthless, growing up in Tsawwassen, my gut still tells me that it's still a pipedream in terms of locale and everything flowing therefrom.

As an aside, I can imagine NIMBY Tsawwassenites will be up in arms over this proposal. If it ever does get built, perhaps it will finally provide the impetus for Hwy 17 interchanges at 56th St. and 52nd St. paving the way for a freeway standard highway right to the beginning of the ferry causeway.

[hollywoodnorth]

Originally Posted by idunno

http://formretail.catylist.com/jsp/l...?ID=55_2108984

*vomits*

Tsawwassen Mills Power Centre

Property Status: Under Construction



c/o http://formretail.catylist.com/files...en_Commons.jpg



what really pisses me off ... is this is farm land ... at the very least this project should be LEED ..... but obviously the Natives just want to make as much $$ as possible and anything LEED or pleasing for the eye even ... is not gonna happen. Surface parking lots? ICK! there should be parking on the roofs (or underground) and there would be 50% more green space available ....

[bardak]

Honestly the render is better then I expected. That being said it is just a render and it still is horrendous. It's just not as bad as I thought it was going to be.

The thing that irks me the most is how low the residential density is when you have this monstrosity sitting in the back.

[phesto]

Originally Posted by bardak

Honestly the render is better then I expected. That being said it is just a render and it still is horrendous. It's just not as bad as I thought it was going to be.

The thing that irks me the most is how low the residential density is when you have this monstrosity sitting in the back.

The actual density is higher than this rendering probably portrays. It's not high density by any means, but there is quite a bit of townhouse and lowrise apartment in the mix with single family lots.

From my understanding of the TFN planning process, they weren't opposed to greater densities, but unfortunately a lot of the plan was dictated by what the development market would pay for now (single family/townhouse), as oppose to waiting several years until the market would justify higher densities and maybe more open area.

A lot of the band members stood to make a great deal of money by selling their lots as soon as the land was designated so single family lots make the most sense to get the cash today...

[Millennium2002]

They seem to be doing something along the lines of Park Royal... but in reverse.

Frankly I wished everything was done as one single building... and also maybe incorporated some indoor water elements to replace outdoor Splashdown Park aka West Edmonton Mall? That would have made it more palatable, but atm it just seems like another sprawl in the middle of nowhere.

Also I feel that they may be over-extending themselves by estimating that any of their demand will come from the ferry terminals... commuters between cities normally don't buy groceries on the way back I don't think... Maybe the local residents might like it afterwards too but that still seems like a very small population for one super-mall to rely on....

phesto I think your comment makes the most sense... that is, make a quick buck and run with it while you can... I think this also explains the expansion of suburbs in Surrey, Langley Township, Abbotsford, and Mission... (sigh) Doesn't the government have any powers to veto developments like this for ALR intrusion or anything like that? I guess it's not ALR land that they're building it on though... (sigh)

[SpongeG]

its a destination mall and should be home to a number of brands and stores not anywhere else in the city which makes its a draw for the region thus forcing people in other parts of the LM to travel there - I can imagine people will venture out a few times a year - the "outlet" mall in surrey draws some people from vancouver apparently

the vaughn mills mall has some fancy upscale bowling place - lucky strike from the states and a nascar speedpark for its entertainment portion

i don't know what calgary has to offer

[metroXpress]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

They seem to be doing something along the lines of Park Royal... but in reverse.

Frankly I wished everything was done as one single building... and also maybe incorporated some indoor water elements to replace outdoor Splashdown Park aka West Edmonton Mall? That would have made it more palatable, but atm it just seems like another sprawl in the middle of nowhere.

Also I feel that they may be over-extending themselves by estimating that any of their demand will come from the ferry terminals... commuters between cities normally don't buy groceries on the way back I don't think... Maybe the local residents might like it afterwards too but that still seems like a very small population for one super-mall to rely on....

Splashdown Park is great, I'd rather keep a water park outdoors. Even if it means half-year operations, it's fine. At least I can get out and enjoy the weather.


I do have friends coming from the Island, not for groceries, but for other shopping sprees in the lower mainland. There are many chains stores that they don't have but would like to go to.


Not a bad news for Delta I suppose.

[Millennium2002]

Oh i see... point taken about chains existing here that don't exist on the island. Having said that, I still believe a redesign is necessary... if they are genuinely concerned about the environment they'd fix the design because at the moment this proposal flies in the face of what other environmental wrongdoings they sometimes oppose. Or otherwise I suggest they give up their other environmental commitments too. It only works either way if one doesn't wish to be hypocritical. =S

[SpongeG]

there is a bus company that runs every weekend - special trips to IKEA from victoria i think they also hit a mall or something in richmond

with a mall that close to the ferry people from victoria etc could park at the ferry and just come over for the afternoon to the mall

[dreambrother808]

Looking at the Crossiron and Vaughan Mills websites, I don't see anything that Metrotown doesn't have other than outlet versions of a few stores. Meh... not very impressive if this will be similar.

My issue with shopping in the metro area is lack of variety. I certainly don't see how it could ever be considered overbuilt. We really need more choices, which this development doesn't hold much promise of providing.

[hollywoodnorth]

also looking at the rendering I posted .... in the bottom right center of the photo ... seems like what is a Movie Theater.

[invisibleairwaves]

Meh. I'm not too bothered by the proposal. It's a car-dependent area regardless of whether they build this thing or not. The best we can hope for is that they'll at least put in some sidewalks. It's not like they were ever going to build a pedestrian-friendly urban environment way out in friggin' Tsawwassen. I mean really, what were you guys expecting?

[Millennium2002]

I think some of us have gotten used to Vancouver building requirements more than the lenient requirements imposed by other cities...

And I have to ask... with a mall of that size... would it be harder to walk around all of those stores? I guess it doesn't matter if you're an avid shopper and willing to spend at least two hours there for some good deals, but for a person like me with a set needs and wants based shopping list mentality, it seems like overkill. =S I guess that's the point?

[wrenegade]

Most of this area should be industrial. It is nice to see at least some will be. This being a Mills mall and not just another large power centre should attract more attention from both retailers and customers though. They do usually bring with them a couple interesting tenants (Bass Pro Shops, the bowling place that was mentioned). Also, Vaughn Mills has a "StyleSense" store. Part of the Winners/Homesense family, it is basically 15k-20k square feet of shoes and accessories. It's actually a fantastic concept. When I toured Vaughn almost 3 years ago they were working on bringing the concept out west but I'm sure the recession put a damper on things. Anyways, perhaps they will enter the market here.

It certainly won't be a beacon for sustainable development, but what do you expect? Land values out here won't really support large densities.

[officedweller]

The project makes sense for where it is.
Take a smaller urban "lifestyle" centre like Morgan Crossing - does anyone travel from Vancouver to go to Morgan Crossing?
Even other traditional malls in more built up areas like Brentwood, Lougheed, Guildford, Lansdowne and Coquitlam Centre haven't yet built on their parking lots.
In time, if the surrounding area becomes a town centre, then maybe the mall site will get built up too.

[Metro-One]

OK, I am going to have to chime in here, how much ALR is being lost here?

That is my biggest concern, I don't care who is doing the development, native, non native, martian, if the plan is to take away some of the best farmland in Canada (with the longest growing season in the nation and in a province with very limited agricultural space) then I am against it, unless in return they are replacing this loss with equal or greater quality and size farmland elsewhere in Metro Vancouver.

This potential loss of farmland is also why I am sour with the idea of the SFPR having traffic lights instead of interchanges, because arteries with traffic lights are far easier to insert new intersections into them, allowing more chipping away of the farmland. I also thought that akin to Japan the SFPR should have been elevated in the areas that it cuts farms in half, allowing farming to still continue as unhindered as possible below and beside, and also again further discouraging the possibility of new intersections being added to the road in the future.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

OK, I am going to have to chime in here, how much ALR is being lost here?

That is my biggest concern, I don't care who is doing the development, native, non native, martian, if the plan is to take away some of the best farmland in Canada (with the longest growing season in the nation and in a province with very limited agricultural space) then I am against it, unless in return they are replacing this loss with equal or greater quality and size farmland elsewhere in Metro Vancouver.

This potential loss of farmland is also why I am sour with the idea of the SFPR having traffic lights instead of interchanges, because arteries with traffic lights are far easier to insert new intersections into them, allowing more chipping away of the farmland. I also thought that akin to Japan the SFPR should have been elevated in the areas that it cuts farms in half, allowing farming to still continue as unhindered as possible below and beside, and also again further discouraging the possibility of new intersections being added to the road in the future.

Quite a bit of farmland lost actually. Unlike the Richmond Garden City Lands, this area is actually being farmed at this moment.

[Metro-One]

So then why all the support on here? Is it PC support because it is a native band doing it?