Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by Dallas Snob

Sorry, Old & New. Im not trying to inflame this, but youre not gaining a fan in me. Your approach just turns me off. You could most likely convince more people over if you could find a better way to convey your message. In my experience, honey wins people over more effectively than one sided abrasiveness. Im just stating the facts here, but i dont think your open to hearing it.

Really? Because I said “bullshit” once about someone comparing the Utah Pantages Theatre to a surface parking lot? Your response comes across as smug/holier than thou. Could be a cultural thing I guess, considering your username.

Anyway, 35-40 million tops is the price tag to restore the Utah Pantages Theatre, not 80 million. It’s definitely doable.

And now, as of Jan 1, 2022, it has qualified for the National Registry of Historic Places, and therefore qualifies for 20% tax credits.

[mstar]

Originally Posted by Atlas

MVE posted an update on Sugar Alley. These pictures confirm what I had been thinking for awhile: only half of the wood-framed part of the building has been built on top of the concrete podium. Anyone know why? Hopefully they didn't just axe the other half permanently.

Originally Posted by msbutah

The best part about the view from Liberty Sky is that you don’t have to see Liberty Sky.

Originally Posted by Old&New

Really? Because I said “bullshit” once about someone comparing the Utah Pantages Theatre to a surface parking lot? Your response comes across as smug/holier than thou. Could be a cultural thing I guess, considering your username.

Anyway, 35-40 million tops is the price tag to restore the Utah Pantages Theatre, not 80 million. It’s definitely doable.

And now, as of Jan 1, 2022, it has qualified for the National Registry of Historic Places, and therefore qualifies for 20% tax credits.

Hey Guys, it's OK to have a disagreement. Actually, different viewpoints are a good thing. Respectful dialog is what we need. In my opinion, yes it would be nice to have another theater downtown. However, I think the benefit of having the Hines tower far out weighs the benefit of having a third theater downtown. Hines tower will dramatically change that area of main street. It will give Salt Lake a much more "large city" feel. I think with the Eccles and Capital theaters being awesome facilities and the cost of saving the Pantages being so astronomically high, the Hines tower is the best option. My opinion.

[meman]

I agree completely with you, Mstar. Its easy to talk about restoring the Pantages theatre without having to pony up the money to get it done,

I havent seen anybody on this forum suggesting how to raise the approx 50 million dollars or more to restore the theatre.

Its a done deal with Hines and the demolition of the theatre is inevitable no matter how many people (which doesnt seem to be a lot of Salt Lakers) are against tearing down the theatre.

The new tower will add a great deal to the virbrancy of downtown and will give to much needed to living spaces to downtown.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Old&New

Really? Because I said “bullshit” once about someone comparing the Utah Pantages Theatre to a surface parking lot? Your response comes across as smug/holier than thou. Could be a cultural thing I guess, considering your username.

Anyway, 35-40 million tops is the price tag to restore the Utah Pantages Theatre, not 80 million. It’s definitely doable.

And now, as of Jan 1, 2022, it is listed on the National Historic Registry, and qualifies for 20% tax credits.

A few items here. The $35-40 Million is for the restoration/replacement of the items to bring the theater back to what it once was. This price does not include the $30-40 Million needed for seismic upgrades. Once the seismic items are included, the total cost is inline with the $60-80 Million that the City and others have provided.

Next, at this point, roughly 70% of the theater would be a replacement, not a restoration. You cannot restore what is missing, only replace it. Let's look at this differently: If you take 30% of timbers from a 500 year old ship, put the timbers where they were historically and then used modern timbers to build around and rebuild the ship as it looked originally, is the ship a restoration or is it a historic replication?

If you are using the date of Historic registration as a significant date to use as a way to save the theater, you must also recognize the date the City and Hines completed their transaction in 2021. This means that the City has no ability to force a restoration/replacement on the owner. It also means that Hines could remove the items they are going to use in the Apartment tower under the guise of restoration and then leave the rest of the theater open to the elements. In a year or so, enough damage would have happened to the remaining items in the theater that what is left wouldn't be worth even saving. This would lead right back to the current situation of requesting to demolish the building. Hines could crack the roof today and as long as it isn't structural and there is nothing that could be done to stop it.

This takes us to Atlas' comment which is still true. Without an injunction, and proof of fraud, nothing will stop the theater from being demolished.

I still say that those that want to save the theater have better odds of working with Hines to relocate the theater - brick by brick, to another location than to get it rebuilt in place. This would still be a better plan for the "Save the Pantages" group than their current course of actions.

It doesn't matter how many times people talk about the old days or what other cities have done, it just cannot change the facts that Salt Lake divested itself of the theater and land it sits on and both now belong to Hines. Hines has the ultimate decision of what happens with their property. Going to court won't change this fact, especially in a developer friendly State.

While there is other land for apartment towers, the land isn't owned by Hines and isn't adjacent to a Hines property. So the argument that the tower could be built elsewhere is no better than an argument that the theater could just be moved.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by meman

I agree completely with you, Mstar. Its easy to talk about restoring the Pantages theatre without having to pony up the money to get it done,

I havent seen anybody on this forum suggesting how to raise the approx 50 million dollars or more to restore the theatre.

Its a done deal with Hines and the demolition of the theatre is inevitable no matter how many people (which doesnt seem to be a lot of Salt Lakers) are against tearing down the theatre.

The new tower will add a great deal to the virbrancy of downtown and will give to much needed to living spaces to downtown.

Why did you just inflate the numbers by 10-15 million? Where do you get your numbers? The tower can bring vibrancy located on some other vacant parcel, and theatre will bring even more vibrancy to the theater district.

We can raise the money. One individual who is not a Huntsman or the like has already offered a million to the restoration. The city nor the rda never even bothered trying to put the theatre onto the National Registry of Historic Places to qualify for 20% tax credits from the federal government. No, the citizens did that, and now it has qualified.

I’d take a vaudeville era theatre over a glassy anywhere-usa tower any day.

But why choose between the two? Let’s have both. Just work with Hines to build the tower elsewhere and give them a massive tax break for the trouble. I don’t think anyone would be against that.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by Makid

A few items here. The $35-40 Million is for the restoration/replacement of the items to bring the theater back to what it once was.

You are incorrect. Jeff Greene said that would only cost around $5-7 million, but he could do it for $4 million. The rest of the $35-40 million covers the seismic upgrades.

The demolition permit has not yet been approved. It is still pending, AND there is an active legal dispute about it. So no, Hines can’t just crack the roof. No demolition can happen until a permit has been granted.

[TMoneySLC]

Originally Posted by meman

The new tower will add a great deal to the virbrancy of downtown and will give to much needed to living spaces to downtown.

People keep talking about vibrancy and street activation, but I’m downtown enough to see all these apartments opening and yet nobody out on the streets. One has to wonder: where exactly are all these people who have moved in? Because they aren’t walking around in the evenings, that’s for sure.

[Schmoe]

I, for one, am going to miss all the great events the Pantages/Utah Theatre hosts.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by Schmoe

I, for one, am going to miss all the great events the Pantages/Utah Theatre hosts.

Out of town? Boycott? We all know it’s not currently functional. Not sure what you’re getting at.

[ThePusherMan]

Originally Posted by TMoneySLC

People keep talking about vibrancy and street activation, but I’m downtown enough to see all these apartments opening and yet nobody out on the streets. One has to wonder: where exactly are all these people who have moved in? Because they aren’t walking around in the evenings, that’s for sure.

My bar saw over 2k on Saturday. Sorry they weren’t on the street for you to look at.

[Marvland]

[QUOTE=Old&New;9553215. We can raise the money. One individual who is not a Huntsman or the like has already offered a million to the restoration. The city nor the rda never even bothered trying to put the theatre onto the National Registry of Historic Places to qualify for 20% tax credits from the federal government. No, the citizens did that, and now it has qualified..[/QUOTE]

"We can raise the money". Hmmmm. Who is the we? Please disclose your interest in this project for the sake of clarity.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Old&New

You are incorrect. Jeff Greene said that would only cost around $5-7 million, but he could do it for $4 million. The rest of the $35-40 million covers the seismic upgrades.

The demolition permit has not yet been approved. It is still pending, AND there is an active legal dispute about it. So no, Hines can’t just crack the roof. No demolition can happen until a permit has been granted.

I severely doubt that any seismic work can be done for $5-7 Million. To do proper seismic work, the building would need to be placed on piers, jacked up, excavated underneath, additional piers laid 50' to 75' into the ground, an new foundation put in place, a stabilization system added, and then theater then lowered onto the new foundation and stabilization system. This is before work starts in the theater to reinforce the masonry, joists, roof, and anchor everything together correctly.

An easy estimate based on the approximate size of the theater and age, puts it at no less than $25 Million. For someone to say they could do it for 25% the cost or lower makes me question the rest of the lower cost estimates. It seems as if the low estimates are published just to cause sentiment to shift to support a reconstruction of the theater. While sentiment may shift, once funds run out and there is still 50% or more of the project remaining due to the false estimates, are people still going to donate again based on still false estimates?

This can then lead to questions on the estimates used on the programming of the reconstructed theater. If the reconstruction cost estimates are so off base, why should the estimates on the programming be accepted? Remember, there is no dedicated parking for the theater, it would need to contract with other garages that are a full block + away from the theater, especially when counting the walking distance. This will hamper the ability to draw people, which lowers the ability to program the theater.

Using the theater as an Art House or for Sundance can help a bit but overall, the patronage will be sparse for the vase majority of the year. This leads to higher ticket prices, or the need for subsidies from the ZAP tax. Even with this, ZAP is limited in what it can provide and it is doubtful that it would provide sufficient funds to allow the theater to survive.

Now, if the theater were to be moved (brick by brick) to an area with parking, on or very near transit, I could see the cost to reconstruct the theater coming in at $30-40 Million.

I would love the theater to be reconstructed, I won't use restored as there is too much gone to restore it, but I am also a realist who understands costs and budgets. The real world needs to come into this and the fantasy needs to be let go.

Lastly, all estimates from the City for reconstruction were done prior to construction costs increasing roughly 30%. The estimates provided by the Save the Pantages group were done after this 30% increase. This alone should make people question the estimates.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

My bar saw over 2k on Saturday. Sorry they weren’t on the street for you to look at.

I am happy to hear of the nice patronage. Hopefully this is a sign of many brighter days to come.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by Marvland

"We can raise the money". Hmmmm. Who is the we? Please disclose your interest in this project for the sake of clarity.

Simply proponents of the Utah Pantages Theatre. The Pantages is something I’ve been interested in for a very long time. We the public were consistently assured the theatre would be restored during Ralph Beckers administration. Then he lost to Jackie Biskupski and the movement on the theatre stoped. The public could not foresee the sale of the theatre for $0, nor had enough time to react. Members of the public have been scrambling to do what the mayor and RDA should have been doing all along. Bringing in theater restoration experts, getting the Pantages listed on the National Registry of Historic Places to get the 20% tax credits from the federal government, which would also open it to certain grants from the Federal Government.

Restoring the Pantages has been the overwhelming response from the public every time their was a public hearing or open house for public input. A restored Pantages was even in the Salt Lake City Masterplan. There’s still hope for the Pantages, and the voice of the people.

The active legal disputes will likely put a halt to the project and shine light on Dany Waltz’ involvement, what his motives were in inflating the restoration numbers, unethical dealings, etc. a court may also decide that the city’s contract with the developer has been violated by both the city and Hines for not following the correct process and is thus null and void. It’ll be interesting to see what comes out and what decisions are made.

[Reeder113]

I'm anxiously awaiting the day the Pantages theater gets demo'd. Mostly so we can all stop talking about it, but also because I have zero connections to that theater.

I'm also a big fan of the tower that will take it's place.

[Old&New]

I can’t wait to buy season tickets to the Pantages.

[Blah_Amazing]

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

Not sure what we are trying to save here with the theater. The outside isn’t of much value and never seemed to be of much value from the beginning. It’s more of an entrance and corridor from what I have seen. The structure I’m sure is in need of a ton of work if you are going to invest tens of millions of dollars to save an interior that is basically gutted already. Sure, the Main Street tower can be built elsewhere but the same is true for the theater that is basically starting from scratch given its current state of disrepair and structural deficiencies. I would not be for tax dollars to save this theater as I view it as a money pit with very little in return on investment for the community. Donations and private funding only.

There is more intact in SLC's theatre than there was in the Minneapolis Pantages theatre that was restored. It can be done.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Makid

I severely doubt that any seismic work can be done for $5-7 Million. To do proper seismic work, the building would need to be placed on piers, jacked up, excavated underneath, additional piers laid 50' to 75' into the ground, an new foundation put in place, a stabilization system added, and then theater then lowered onto the new foundation and stabilization system. This is before work starts in the theater to reinforce the masonry, joists, roof, and anchor everything together correctly.

...

Go back and re-read. He said $35-40 million for seismic work. $5-7 million to restore the decorative elements.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Go back and re-read. He said $35-40 million for seismic work. $5-7 million to restore the decorative elements.

Thank you Stenar, I did miss this as I was tired when I read the post.

I would love to see a breakdown of the $5-7 Million for the restoration, recreation, and reconstruction of the theater itself.

I had heard from many that the balcony would need to be fully replaced and that alone would cost nearly $15 Million. The Lobby and corridors was around $5 Million, the seating was $1-2 Million, and the replacement of missing and damaged scroll-work/ornate features plus painting was around $15 Million itself.

If these estimates from multiple sources are high, we should see a breakdown to fully see this. Even Howa estimated around $25 Million for just the recreation when he owned the theater. It was Howa's estimate that lead to the City purchasing the theater ($25 Million for the theater work and $15 Million for seismic upgrades - $40 Million total).

Without a breakdown of the estimates that also not only refute what the RDA put in the estimate package but also that of the prior owner, who was a developer and could estimate costs, let's try not to impugn the character of someone just because their name is on a compiled report and others don't like what the report states.