NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[drumz0rz]

The long term plan is to relocate the entire Amtrak operation out of Penn and into Moynihan / Penn South, correct?

I'd love to see a plan to renovate Penn (ideally demolishing that ugly cylinder above) by that time. 10 years maybe?

Hopefully by the time I die we'll get something completed there. I won't hold my breath.

[vkristof]

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

The long term plan is to relocate the entire Amtrak operation out of Penn and into Moynihan / Penn South, correct?

I'd love to see a plan to renovate Penn (ideally demolishing that ugly cylinder above) by that time. 10 years maybe?

Hopefully by the time I die we'll get something completed there. I won't hold my breath.

Do NOT hold your breath if you want to see a New Penn Station/Moynihan Station.

AFAIK, the plan is still to relocate Amtrak into Moynihan/Farley, which is reinforced by this 2014-1018 Fiscal Plan snippet: the transformation of the historic Farley Post Office Building into the new "Moynihan Station" serving Amtrak’s intercity operations and providing the station capacity to support the growth of Amtrak's Acela and future NextGen high-speed rail services.

"Penn South" would require serious demolition in that 780 block. The upper level platforms would be terminal/dead end at the 7th Ave end, so they could not be used as easily for the Amtrak NEC trains as the existing century+ old Penn RR/Amtrak platforms.

Regarding the Dolan's MSG/"ugly cylinder": the new lease runs out in 2023, AFAIK.

[Perklol]

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

The long term plan is to relocate the entire Amtrak operation out of Penn and into Moynihan / Penn South, correct?

I'd love to see a plan to renovate Penn (ideally demolishing that ugly cylinder above) by that time. 10 years maybe?

Hopefully by the time I die we'll get something completed there. I won't hold my breath.

So I was right?

I would also like to see MSG razed for a grand railroad terminal sometime soon. Politicians should think about those huge investments for their children and grandchildren at least.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

The long term plan is to relocate the entire Amtrak operation out of Penn and into Moynihan / Penn South, correct?

Yes, but again, Moynihan is Penn. They are the same station.

If you mean the current Amtrak concourse in the existing Penn, then yes, Amtrak has signed an agreement for Moynihan. But everything will be connected and the same station complex.

[drumz0rz]

I guess my question was more, what will they do with the current Amtrak waiting areas? Would NJ Transit / LIRR be able to make use of any of that space? They currently occupy the lower level.

[vkristof]

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

I guess my question was more, what will they do with the current Amtrak waiting areas? Would NJ Transit / LIRR be able to make use of any of that space? They currently occupy the lower level.

I am assuming YES, NJ Transit & the LIRR would make use of the current Amtrak waiting areas under MSG. From the photos I've seen NJT could definitely use the space.

Just speculation on my part, but, I put a higher probability on Amtrak moving to Farley/Moynihan than Penn South getting built. At least in the short, 10 year time frame. Especially when you contemplate the diruption a Penn South would require:

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

I guess my question was more, what will they do with the current Amtrak waiting areas? Would NJ Transit / LIRR be able to make use of any of that space? They currently occupy the lower level.

NJ Transit, LIRR and Metro North would all be possibilities.

Remember that Metro North will need Penn Station space once LIRR shifts some operations to Grand Central. Metro North will run trains up the West Side Amtrak line to the upcoming East Bronx line and existing Metro North service northbound.

[vkristof]

Originally Posted by Crawford

NJ Transit, LIRR and Metro North would all be possibilities.

Remember that Metro North will need Penn Station space once LIRR shifts some operations to Grand Central. Metro North will run trains up the West Side Amtrak line to the upcoming East Bronx line and existing Metro North service northbound.

Good point.
Lots of possibilities regarding what might happen in the next decade.
Hopefully what happens is useful.
Penn has gotten better over the last couple of decades but ridership continues increasing.

[Perklol]

Originally Posted by Crawford

NJ Transit, LIRR and Metro North would all be possibilities.

Remember that Metro North will need Penn Station space once LIRR shifts some operations to Grand Central. Metro North will run trains up the West Side Amtrak line to the upcoming East Bronx line and existing Metro North service northbound.

True but we won't have to worry about that yet. According to some articles East Side Access could open beyond 2021.

[vkristof]

Originally Posted by Eveningsong

True but we won't have to worry about that yet. According to some articles East Side Access could open beyond 2021.

Yes, the FTA estimates 2023, according to the Newsday article yesterday on subsidence issues due to ESA work at Harold Interlocking in Queens.

That's why I stated a few days ago "Lots of possibilities regarding what might happen in the next decade."

But, I hope and believe they can finish the West End Concourse work under Moynihan/Farley by the end of 2016.

[fimiak]

Originally Posted by Eveningsong

True but we won't have to worry about that yet. According to some articles East Side Access could open beyond 2021.

Another seven years?

[BrownTown]

The time and money for East Side Access just blows my mind. They are using an existing tunnel for half the route and the total route is only a couple of miles. In most other countries a project like this would take 2 years, not 15. I don't understand how NYC can even exist when they pay construction workers five times what most places do and they still work slower than molasses.

[vkristof]

Originally Posted by fimiak

Another seven years?

You can take your pick of various FORECAST dates below, which is from a January 2014 MTA document. The document itself gives you an inkling of the scale and complexity of the overall project and is worth a skim.
http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/d...Report_ESA.pdf

These ESA schedule slippages and forecast completion dates have relevance if/when actual schedules for Penn/Moynihan are revealed. And ESA slippages impact the REALITY of whatever proposals of bringing Metro-North into Penn (via the Empire Connection tunnel under West Side/Hudson Yards) are mentioned.

[vkristof]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

The time and money for East Side Access just blows my mind. They are using an existing tunnel for half the route and the total route is only a couple of miles. In most other countries a project like this would take 2 years, not 15. I don't understand how NYC can even exist when they pay construction workers five times what most places do and they still work slower than molasses.

Yeah, it is very interesting that NYC even exists. But it does exist and the population is rising. AND lots of tourists come to NYC and are amazed, and probably some are amazed "how NYC can even exist".

And it started with the Dutch looking for a route to India through North America 400+ years ago, not finding it, but finding Native Americans who they could trade with for beaver pelts to export to Europe...

PS: Just to be technically accurate, the "existing tunnel" that BrownTown references is the long partly dormant 63rd street TUNNEL under the East River (not the 63rd St BRIDGE in John Carpenter's seminal work "Escape from New York", but takes it's name from the same Manhattan street).
"By the time that construction on the LIRR tunnel level stopped, the tunnel was built for a distance of 8,600 feet (2,600 m).[12]" - wikipedia
The tunneling for ESA in this millenia is essentially completed and is considerably more than twice the length of the existing 63rd st tunnel.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by vkristof

Yeah, it is very interesting that NYC even exists. But it does exist and the population is rising. AND lots of tourists come to NYC and are amazed, and probably some are amazed "how NYC can even exist".

And it started with the Dutch looking for a route to India through North America 400+ years ago, not finding it, but finding Native Americans who they could trade with for beaver pelts to export to Europe...

PS: Just to be technically accurate, the "existing tunnel" that BrownTown references is the long partly dormant 63rd street TUNNEL under the East River (not the 63rd St BRIDGE in John Carpenter's seminal work "Escape from New York", but takes it's name from the same Manhattan street).
"By the time that construction on the LIRR tunnel level stopped, the tunnel was built for a distance of 8,600 feet (2,600 m).[12]" - wikipedia
The tunneling for ESA in this millenia is essentially completed and is considerably more than twice the length of the existing 63rd st tunnel.

If you look at the maps it might be slightly less than half the length, but that isn't really the point. Even if they had to tunnel the entire length that wouldn't justify this much time and cost. As for all of New York "amazing" infrastructure, how much of it was built in the last 50 years exactly? New York used to be an example of how to get things done in this world, but I doubt many would argue that's still true today.

[vkristof]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

If you look at the maps it might be slightly less than half the length, but that isn't really the point. Even if they had to tunnel the entire length that wouldn't justify this much time and cost. As for all of New York "amazing" infrastructure, how much of it was built in the last 50 years exactly? New York used to be an example of how to get things done in this world, but I doubt many would argue that's still true today.

Yep. Times have changed.

One of the many, many things that have changed over the last 50 years is the creation of the NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission:

demolition of the original [NY Penn] station began in 1963.
Though assorted protests took place, there was little organized resistance to the demolition of Pennsylvania Station. The destruction was a catalyzing factor in the development of the modern historic preservation movement. The New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission was created in 1965, and is credited with preventing a similar fate for Grand Central Terminal.

-wikipedia

[drumz0rz]

Originally Posted by Crawford

NJ Transit, LIRR and Metro North would all be possibilities.

Remember that Metro North will need Penn Station space once LIRR shifts some operations to Grand Central. Metro North will run trains up the West Side Amtrak line to the upcoming East Bronx line and existing Metro North service northbound.

I'm not sure sure MNCRR needs Penn access, but it certainly would be a nice to have. I've also heard that they want to run trains through the east river tunnels and then up through Amtrak's existing Northeast Corridor and over the Hell's Gate Bridge.

If we're lucky, by that time, the MTA will take over ownership of those tunnels because any LIRR commuter can tell you what a bang up job Amtrak has done maintaining those tunnels!

Originally Posted by BrownTown

The time and money for East Side Access just blows my mind. They are using an existing tunnel for half the route and the total route is only a couple of miles. In most other countries a project like this would take 2 years, not 15. I don't understand how NYC can even exist when they pay construction workers five times what most places do and they still work slower than molasses.

The ESA is the largest public works project in the country. It's not as simple as just digging a tunnel. It took the Pennsylvania Railroad 5 years (1904-1909) to build the existing east river tubes. In that 5 years many workers died including some who were blown out into the river when the soft soil above gave way to the pressurized tunnel head. They also had the luxury of connecting into Penn Station just below grade. For the ESA they need to excavate and construct an entire new terminal way below ground (below and north of GCT)

The ESA has been under construction since 2006. By 2011, the Manhattan tunnels were completed (5 years) and by 2012 the tunnels under the river were fully bored (6 years). Now, why it'll take another 8 years to complete... that does seem a bit ridiculous...

[DCCliff]

It's my understanding that the incredible intricacy of the new tunnel link connection the 63rd St tunnel trackage into the Sunnyside yards area is the big time element remaining. Tunneling is going under active elevated structures, streets, and other active rail lines just after they emerge from the Penn Sta tunnels. The emergence from the 63rd St tunnel is being arranged so its train traffic does not have to cross any other existing traffic at grade. If you've walked around the area at all, it is a truly awesome (tho organized) mess!

[vkristof]

Originally Posted by DCCliff

It's my understanding that the incredible intricacy of the new tunnel link connection the 63rd St tunnel trackage into the Sunnyside yards area is the big time element remaining. Tunneling is going under active elevated structures, streets, and other active rail lines just after they emerge from the Penn Sta tunnels. The emergence from the 63rd St tunnel is being arranged so its train traffic does not have to cross any other existing traffic at grade. If you've walked around the area at all, it is a truly awesome (tho organized) mess!

yes, the last tunnels bored were the FOUR tunnels under Sunnyside Yards, Queens. Those TBMs (long since gone) were launched from what is called the Q-tip excavation in Long Island City, just east of 25A, between 41st Ave and 40th Rd. The Plaza Interlocking structures (concrete & steel walls, floors, roofs, etc.) are now being built within the Q-tip (the Q-tip has at least two levels). The Q-tip excavation connects west underground through a recently built tunnel under 25A (& the L above 25A) to the extended 63rd St tunnels that lead to Manhattan.

The subsidence problems that were publicized by Newsday et al are related to Harold Interlocking, which extends along the south side of Sunnyside yards and under Honeywell and 39th streets. Harold is a VERY active interlocking, which is also being upgraded with a another pair of tracks so that Amtrak can bypass a good deal of the new switching for the LIRR's ESA, etc.
The snip of page 15 (below) from the Jan 2014 ESA report gives a brief description of Harold Interlocking work, but leaves out the micro-tunnels that are being jacked under this area:


http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/d...Report_ESA.pdf


Anyway, this shows a very small slice of the work for ESA and gives you an inkling on how large a project this is. The spread in the various forecasts for the ESA open-for-revenue service date also gives an idea that speculation about east-of-Hudson Metro-North service into NY Penn is pure speculation since it should not feasible till the 2020s. And LOTS of other events can influence the priority of bringing east-of-Hudson MN into Penn...

[Submariner]

I've always wondered what those giant holes were for. Now I know.

Originally Posted by vkristof

yes, the last tunnels bored were the FOUR tunnels under Sunnyside Yards, Queens. Those TBMs (long since gone) were launched from what is called the Q-tip excavation in Long Island City, just east of 25A, between 41st Ave and 40th Rd. The Plaza Interlocking structures (concrete & steel walls, floors, roofs, etc.) are now being built within the Q-tip (the Q-tip has at least two levels). The Q-tip excavation connects west underground through a recently built tunnel under 25A (& the L above 25A) to the extended 63rd St tunnels that lead to Manhattan.

The subsidence problems that were publicized by Newsday et al are related to Harold Interlocking, which extends along the south side of Sunnyside yards and under Honeywell and 39th streets. Harold is a VERY active interlocking, which is also being upgraded with a another pair of tracks so that Amtrak can bypass a good deal of the new switching for the LIRR's ESA, etc.
The snip of page 15 (below) from the Jan 2014 ESA report gives a brief description of Harold Interlocking work, but leaves out the micro-tunnels that are being jacked under this area:


http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/d...Report_ESA.pdf


Anyway, this shows a very small slice of the work for ESA and gives you an inkling on how large a project this is. The spread in the various forecasts for the ESA open-for-revenue service date also gives an idea that speculation about east-of-Hudson Metro-North service into NY Penn is pure speculation since it should not feasible till the 2020s. And LOTS of other events can influence the priority of bringing east-of-Hudson MN into Penn...