HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #3541  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 3:00 AM
YOWflier's Avatar
YOWflier YOWflier is offline
Melissa: fabulous.
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: YOW/CYOW/CUUP
Posts: 2,974
There may have been some truth to that in the past (exaggerated as it may be), but it's hardly true any more, and it will be even less true moving forward. There's a retail explosion happening in this town right now.

People who go to Syracuse from Ottawa go for bargains primarily, for Macy's second, and for outlet shopping third (maybe swap 2-3). Although, with Tanger outlets opening soon, the Syracuse outlets may become obsolete. Heck, with Nordstrom and Simons coming online soon, the Macy's run may become less appealing, too.

Of course, all of this is contigent on pricing discrepancies.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3542  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 3:03 AM
MustangJay MustangJay is offline
MustangJay
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa/Toronto
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
In less diplomatic terms, they're cheap!
I lived in Ottawa for many years and worked at The Bay's flagship Rideau Street store where "is it on sale?" was the customer mantra, in both official languages! It's clear that demographically, Ottawa is a very misleading city for retailers because the high percentage of government workers tends to skew reported income levels higher. While a large middle class is great, retailers like Holt Renfrew don't sell to the masses; they sell to the proverbial 1% ers, of which Ottawa has virtually none. Holt Renfrew's exiting of the Ottawa market will only add to its reputation of driving luxury department stores out of business (dare I mention the disaster that was Les Ailes?) I applaud HR for paying credit to the Ottawa store by saying it was "performing well" when in actuality the location's poor performance has not exactly been a state secret. Doubling down on it's core markets in major urban centres makes sense for Holt's if it's going to go toe-to-toe with Saks and Nordstrom's.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3543  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 3:17 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
The New Republic
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Provinces of America
Posts: 10,791
Ottawa is bound to grow into the type of place that can support luxury retailing. Holts may be abandoning Ottawa, but I sense that they'll come back to this market 15-20 years down the road.
__________________
World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3544  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 3:46 AM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 23,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Ottawa is bound to grow into the type of place that can support luxury retailing. Holts may be abandoning Ottawa, but I sense that they'll come back to this market 15-20 years down the road.
Quite unlikely, imho, unless the post-boomer generations unleash a total change of culture on the place. Ottawa is proudly and aggressively unfashionable. Appearances simply are not much of an issue in the public service. Not having a body odour problem is quite good enough for our nation's capitol.

Edit: Lest anyone think I am dumping on Ottawa, that is not my intention - I consider its lack of concern for outward appearances to be one of its best features. And of course it's not universal. You can find fashionable people in Ottawa - you just have to work at it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3545  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 4:06 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
The New Republic
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Provinces of America
Posts: 10,791
That would make in quite unique for a capital city right there. Most capital cities are quite uppity sophisticated places.
__________________
World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3546  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 4:13 AM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 23,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That would make in quite unique for a capital city right there. Most capital cities are quite uppity sophisticated places.
Ottawans can be very sophisticated, but for decades now the place has blanketed itself in secure, well-educated, middle-class blandness, led by the public sector. With some notorious exceptions, the elites keep a pretty low profile (but elites there are). It is indeed a unique capital city and very attuned to Canadian values. Just not a good shopping city.

Last edited by kwoldtimer; Sep 5, 2014 at 4:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3547  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 7:19 AM
Allan83 Allan83 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,410
The civil servant types, which make up a significant segment of the working population in Ottawa, are definitely conservative. They make good money but they do not want to look like they make a lot of money, at least not at first glance. If you take a closer look there are some giveaways. These people are paid by the taxpayer after all, and they don’t want to be too showy in front of said taxpayers, who generally make less money. They also work in a huge bureaucracy where it is generally better to fit in and get along than it is to be different and standout. In my experience when they want to let their hair down they go to Montreal or Toronto where they feel anonymous.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3548  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 12:49 PM
1overcosc's Avatar
1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 11,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Quite unlikely, imho, unless the post-boomer generations unleash a total change of culture on the place. Ottawa is proudly and aggressively unfashionable. Appearances simply are not much of an issue in the public service. Not having a body odour problem is quite good enough for our nation's capitol.

Edit: Lest anyone think I am dumping on Ottawa, that is not my intention - I consider its lack of concern for outward appearances to be one of its best features. And of course it's not universal. You can find fashionable people in Ottawa - you just have to work at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Ottawans can be very sophisticated, but for decades now the place has blanketed itself in secure, well-educated, middle-class blandness, led by the public sector. With some notorious exceptions, the elites keep a pretty low profile (but elites there are). It is indeed a unique capital city and very attuned to Canadian values. Just not a good shopping city.
Very good description of Ottawa. Agree 100% as somebody who grew up in Ottawa and currently lives half-time in Ottawa.

I work in the federal civil service at a half-telecommuting job and on those days when I do come into the office, I'm wearing a polo shirt and cargo pants. And so does everyone else in my office. Nobody cares.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3549  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 1:03 PM
bikegypsy's Avatar
bikegypsy bikegypsy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan83 View Post
The civil servant types, which make up a significant segment of the working population in Ottawa, are definitely conservative. They make good money but they do not want to look like they make a lot of money, at least not at first glance. If you take a closer look there are some giveaways. These people are paid by the taxpayer after all, and they don’t want to be too showy in front of said taxpayers, who generally make less money. They also work in a huge bureaucracy where it is generally better to fit in and get along than it is to be different and standout. In my experience when they want to let their hair down they go to Montreal or Toronto where they feel anonymous.
Civil servants make up less than 10% of the total population in Ottawa and no, being a civil servant doesn't make you conservative. There is, however, a trend to underdress in Ottawa or to be more outdoorsy in style then places such as Montreal and Toronto. There's nothing wrong with that and it is a city very well connected to the outdoors. Being in the design and arts community, I tend to dress as I wish and have always done so, and never felt out of place in Ottawa. For one who as has spent an equal amount of time in both Ottawa and Montreal, I always felt the amount of anonymity to be the same. What there is more of in Ottawa are people who think the city is more conservative then the rest of Canada... It is Canada which is conservative in both style and behaviour, not Ottawa. After all, being "nice" is notoriously canadian. Canada, the boring heaven.

Last edited by bikegypsy; Sep 5, 2014 at 2:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3550  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 1:07 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Your impression of the diplomatic set is very circa-1970. Not so much anymore. The foreign dips I've known tend to go down to Syracuse to shop.
Among the foreigner crowd in Ottawa (and some other self-anointed fashionable crowds), it's almost a mark of pride to say you don't shop in Ottawa.

And say that you shop in Syracuse for the prices, and Montreal for the selection.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3551  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 1:07 PM
bikegypsy's Avatar
bikegypsy bikegypsy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Quite unlikely, imho, unless the post-boomer generations unleash a total change of culture on the place. Ottawa is proudly and aggressively unfashionable. Appearances simply are not much of an issue in the public service. Not having a body odour problem is quite good enough for our nation's capitol.

Edit: Lest anyone think I am dumping on Ottawa, that is not my intention - I consider its lack of concern for outward appearances to be one of its best features. And of course it's not universal. You can find fashionable people in Ottawa - you just have to work at it.
It is happening
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3552  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 1:20 PM
bikegypsy's Avatar
bikegypsy bikegypsy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Ottawa is bound to grow into the type of place that can support luxury retailing. Holts may be abandoning Ottawa, but I sense that they'll come back to this market 15-20 years down the road.
The problem with Holt Renfrew in Ottawa is the amount of space at their current location as well as the actual location to a lesser extent. In order to stay competitive, they need to broaden their offer in order to compete or to simply attract a clientele. Today's shopper is much more sophisticated in his or her tastes then most members of the babyboomer and older generations. If department stores cannot adapt for any reason, they will not survive. And it doesn't really matter if Nordstrom enters Ottawa or not, Holt Renfrew is dying a slow death in Ottawa because it doesn't have the space to expand and offer the variety the locals are requiring.

What I think will happen or what needs to happen in the next decade or so is the development of true urban node west of the current downtown area or near the future group of condo buildings near little Italy with large enough density and traffic to built a second large shopping mall or a smaller luxury mall a la Courts Mont Royal in Montreal.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3553  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 1:39 PM
bikegypsy's Avatar
bikegypsy bikegypsy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustangJay View Post
I lived in Ottawa for many years and worked at The Bay's flagship Rideau Street store where "is it on sale?" was the customer mantra, in both official languages! It's clear that demographically, Ottawa is a very misleading city for retailers because the high percentage of government workers tends to skew reported income levels higher. While a large middle class is great, retailers like Holt Renfrew don't sell to the masses; they sell to the proverbial 1% ers, of which Ottawa has virtually none. Holt Renfrew's exiting of the Ottawa market will only add to its reputation of driving luxury department stores out of business (dare I mention the disaster that was Les Ailes?) I applaud HR for paying credit to the Ottawa store by saying it was "performing well" when in actuality the location's poor performance has not exactly been a state secret. Doubling down on it's core markets in major urban centres makes sense for Holt's if it's going to go toe-to-toe with Saks and Nordstrom's.
I was employed by Les Ailes in Montreal at the time. Ottawa was their best store, period. It is the entire Groupe San Francisco which went belly up.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3554  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 2:07 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 23,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Among the foreigner crowd in Ottawa (and some other self-anointed fashionable crowds), it's almost a mark of pride to say you don't shop in Ottawa.

And say that you shop in Syracuse for the prices, and Montreal for the selection.
Effectivement.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3555  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 2:19 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 23,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikegypsy View Post
Civil servants make up less than 10% of the total population in Ottawa and no, being a civil servant doesn't make you conservative. There is, however, a trend to underdress in Ottawa or to be more outdoorsy in style then places such as Montreal and Toronto. There's nothing wrong with that and it is a city very well connected to the outdoors. Being in the design and arts community, I tend to dress as I wish and have always done so, and never felt out of place in Ottawa. For one who as has spent an equal amount of time in both Ottawa and Montreal, I always felt the amount of anonymity to be the same. What there is more of in Ottawa are people who think the city is more conservative then the rest of Canada... It is Canada which is conservative in both style and behaviour, not Ottawa. After all, being "nice" and notoriously canadian. Canada, the boring heaven.
And we should fall to our knees in gratitude each morning to be blessed to live in one of the "boring bits".

I find "conservative" the wrong word to describe Ottawans. In fact, I think it is one of the country's more liberal cities. There is a strong culture of understatedness or modesty, but very little overt pressure to conform. You meet brilliant, globe-trotting civil service mandarins who are completely unknown outside their circles. There are high tech types who are richer than God who drive around town in their Volkswagens and would never wear other than bluejeans, given their druthers. It is a unique local culture and I like it. It is an environment where Holt Renfrews struggles do not surprise, although Birks and Harry Rosen seem to do OK. I also think Nordstrom will be a success, in that Ottawa does appreciate quality.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3556  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 2:27 PM
bikegypsy's Avatar
bikegypsy bikegypsy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
And we should fall to our knees in gratitude each morning to be blessed to live in one of the "boring bits".

I find "conservative" the wrong word to describe Ottawans. In fact, I think it is one of the country's more liberal cities. There is a strong culture of understatedness or modesty, but very little overt pressure to conform. You meet brilliant, globe-trotting civil service mandarins who are completely unknown outside their circles. There are high tech types who are richer than God who drive around town in their Volkswagens and would never wear other than bluejeans, given their druthers. It is a unique local culture and I like it. It is an environment where Holt Renfrews struggles do not surprise, although Birks and Harry Rosen seem to do OK. I also think Nordstrom will be a success, in that Ottawa does appreciate quality.
Indeed!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3557  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 2:51 PM
OTSkyline OTSkyline is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,546
I blame the lost of Holt Renfrew almost entirely on their store size and location. The store was not very big and could not be called a "department store" IMO. The location was downtown but right in the middle of office towers, meaning it was dead most of the time. The only time the area isn't dead is during the week when everyone in the nearby office towers are working but HR is not a "pop-in during my lunch break to buy a $800 watch" type of place, people want to come in for an hour or so and look around, try things and people just weren't going there to do that at lunch hour.

I think Ottawa is getting A LOT better with retail and variety.. I would say a couple of years ago (even like 2 years ago) Ottawa was behind on retail compared to everywhere else in Canada.. Now with 3 of our biggest shopping centres going through multi-million dollar expansions and renovations and the arrival of giants like Simons, H&M, Tanger Outlets, Victoria Secret, Nordstrom, an Expanded Harry Rosen and a potential Saks (or Saks Off 5th), things are looking wayyyyy up for Otown
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3558  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 2:59 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 23,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTSkyline View Post
I blame the lost of Holt Renfrew almost entirely on their store size and location. The store was not very big and could not be called a "department store" IMO. The location was downtown but right in the middle of office towers, meaning it was dead most of the time. The only time the area isn't dead is during the week when everyone in the nearby office towers are working but HR is not a "pop-in during my lunch break to buy a $800 watch" type of place, people want to come in for an hour or so and look around, try things and people just weren't going there to do that at lunch hour.

I think Ottawa is getting A LOT better with retail and variety.. I would say a couple of years ago (even like 2 years ago) Ottawa was behind on retail compared to everywhere else in Canada.. Now with 3 of our biggest shopping centres going through multi-million dollar expansions and renovations and the arrival of giants like Simons, H&M, Tanger Outlets, Victoria Secret, Nordstrom, an Expanded Harry Rosen and a potential Saks (or Saks Off 5th), things are looking wayyyyy up for Otown
A potential Saks? Source?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3559  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 3:14 PM
Allan83 Allan83 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,410
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikegypsy View Post
Civil servants make up less than 10% of the total population in Ottawa and no, being a civil servant doesn't make you conservative. There is, however, a trend to underdress in Ottawa or to be more outdoorsy in style then places such as Montreal and Toronto. There's nothing wrong with that and it is a city very well connected to the outdoors. Being in the design and arts community, I tend to dress as I wish and have always done so, and never felt out of place in Ottawa. For one who as has spent an equal amount of time in both Ottawa and Montreal, I always felt the amount of anonymity to be the same. What there is more of in Ottawa are people who think the city is more conservative then the rest of Canada... It is Canada which is conservative in both style and behaviour, not Ottawa. After all, being "nice" is notoriously canadian. Canada, the boring heaven.
I have a number of family members who are longtime employees of the federal government in Ottawa, and when I lived there my girlfriend, who moved there with me, got a job with them as well, and as a result a lot of our friends through her also worked for the feds, so I have some firsthand experience with this question. None of my family members grew up in Ottawa, btw. Many cities in Canada suffer from civil servant-itis, as we call it. Regina, a government town, is more conservative/reserved than Saskatoon, for example, but nowhere has it like Ottawa. But that’s understandable. 10% of the total population sounds about right, but that would be about 15% of the working population, and a much higher percentage than that of the people who make above average wages. If you’re in a store shopping look around. One out of every four or five people you see shopping probably works for the federal government. Even your entry level CR-7s make a comfortable starting wage, not extravagant by any means, but certainly more than the guy behind the counter at the 7-11. W.r.t. anonymity, if you live and work in Ottawa then you are much more anonymous in Montreal or Toronto. Not everyone in Ottawa is conservative in this way, of course, but overall Ottawa is much more conservative than most Canadian cities.

As a side note, I would agree that Ottawa is more outdoorsy than Montreal, but it’s not very outdoorsy in the greater Canadian context, although there people there who do take pains to be outdoorsy. The civil servant thing to do is to rent a cottage in the Gatineau somewhere, which is great, but still quite civilized. Hiking in the Gatineau hills is also very nice, but again not exactly in the same league as people who hike in the mountains, or the wilds of Newfoundland, etc. There are a number of people who go canoeing in Algonquin, and that’s getting more outdoorsy, but again it’s not like canoeing on the Churchill in northern Saskatchewan, for example. In Algonquin there are specific camp sites that you have to use, and you have to make reservations in advance, and there are quite a few other people around. I’ve been on canoe trips in northern Saskatchewan where we didn’t see anyone else for days, and we made our own campsites wherever we saw an appropriate place.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3560  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2014, 3:22 PM
Allan83 Allan83 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,410
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
And we should fall to our knees in gratitude each morning to be blessed to live in one of the "boring bits".

I find "conservative" the wrong word to describe Ottawans. In fact, I think it is one of the country's more liberal cities. There is a strong culture of understatedness or modesty, but very little overt pressure to conform. You meet brilliant, globe-trotting civil service mandarins who are completely unknown outside their circles. There are high tech types who are richer than God who drive around town in their Volkswagens and would never wear other than bluejeans, given their druthers. It is a unique local culture and I like it. It is an environment where Holt Renfrews struggles do not surprise, although Birks and Harry Rosen seem to do OK. I also think Nordstrom will be a success, in that Ottawa does appreciate quality.
Remember that we're talking about small C conservatism, not big C. Reserved might be another useful term. I actually think there is a great deal of pressure to conform, although I think it's more part of the underlying culture rather than an overt pressure. You're right about the wide variety of interesting people with amazing backgrounds. It's a hard city to make generalizations about as well, because there are so many different and distinct groups that make up Ottawa-Gatineau.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:49 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.