Arbutus: Greenway & Future Streetcar | Proposed

[jsbertram]

On the northern end of the Arbutus Line, instead of heading towards Granville island and points east (and around False Creek to Yaletown), use the ROW that curves alongside Pennyfarthing Dr that connects to 1st Ave & Fir and then tunnel under False Creek and tunnel the length of Burrard St. all the way to Canada Place. Either terminate at Canada Place or continue eastwards and run beside the Skytrain ROW to Waterfront terminal.

The surface tracks could be a second route that loops around False Creek from Granville Island to Olympic Village to Science World, then northward to Chinatown to Gastown to Stanley Park. (say bye-bye to the Starbucks built on the ROW at the Granville Island entrance)

North of Science World, the surface tracks could split to run beside GM place and BC Place to Yaletown and westwards along Beach Ave to Stanley Park.

The Burrard tunnel route would likely be favoured by locals for their commutes each day, the False Creek surface route would likely be favoured by tourists (and locals) to get to a lot of the touristy areas.

[Zassk]

A tunnel is a pipe dream. You could probably build a whole line from 4th to Marpole or Marine Stn for under $200 million. The tunnel you are describing would cost at least $500 million on its own.

Remember, we just built a double-bored tunnel across False Creek which is theoretically only being used at 1/3 of its capacity. No point in derailing other potential projects by saddling them with additional expensive tunnels.

Nevermind the minor detail that the ROW north of 4th Ave is owned by First Nations now.

[theho]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Agreed. Cutting south through Point Grey slices through too many major east-west streets for this not to be grade-separated, even partially, as you say. Parts of it already have a route, down beside Arbutus itself, then up the tight curve on the escarpment and on to 41st. That station might need to be underground, too. But, hey, terminating as Marine Drive station would be great.
Where do you see it starting from in the other direction?

Conservatively I would bring it as far as the presumed Arbutus Station on the Broadway line. (Depending on the level of service desired the approach might require a tunnel or cut and cover along that segment of Arbutus between 16th and Broadway)

Getting cleanly over to the rail corridor along 6th (to extend over and into yaletown or gastown or wherever) does not seem easy to me if you want to avoid have dozens of crossings in a small area. (Or extend a tunnel under that area)

Since a much higher level of service is possible along Arbutus (if you can achieve near grade separation) I would consider having a street car meet up, but not necessarily continue as the same service.

A wilder vision might travel over the Burrard street bridge and terminate at Burrard Station. Which if mostly grade separated would also provide relief on the Canada and Expo/Millennium lines into the downtown core.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

On the northern end of the Arbutus Line, instead of heading towards Granville island and points east (and around False Creek to Yaletown), use the ROW that curves alongside Pennyfarthing Dr that connects to 1st Ave & Fir and then tunnel under False Creek and tunnel the length of Burrard St. all the way to Canada Place. Either terminate at Canada Place or continue eastwards and run beside the Skytrain ROW to Waterfront terminal.

The surface tracks could be a second route that loops around False Creek from Granville Island to Olympic Village to Science World, then northward to Chinatown to Gastown to Stanley Park. (say bye-bye to the Starbucks built on the ROW at the Granville Island entrance)

North of Science World, the surface tracks could split to run beside GM place and BC Place to Yaletown and westwards along Beach Ave to Stanley Park.

The Burrard tunnel route would likely be favoured by locals for their commutes each day, the False Creek surface route would likely be favoured by tourists (and locals) to get to a lot of the touristy areas.

This is how I've always imagined it as well, the continuation under Burrard Street I mean. Zassk is right that it would a lot of cost and derail the project, but I think the Arbutus Line wouldn't be built until the Canada Line was at capacity anyway, so at that point a tunnel to downtown would probably be needed.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This is how I've always imagined it as well, the continuation under Burrard Street I mean. Zassk is right that it would a lot of cost and derail the project, but I think the Arbutus Line wouldn't be built until the Canada Line was at capacity anyway, so at that point a tunnel to downtown would probably be needed.

Yes, and I think that this (or something very close to it) is a project likely to come to fruition in years ahead.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Zassk

A tunnel is a pipe dream. You could probably build a whole line from 4th to Marpole or Marine Stn for under $200 million. The tunnel you are describing would cost at least $500 million on its own.

Remember, we just built a double-bored tunnel across False Creek which is theoretically only being used at 1/3 of its capacity. No point in derailing other potential projects by saddling them with additional expensive tunnels.

Nevermind the minor detail that the ROW north of 4th Ave is owned by First Nations now.

Sadly, such cheapening of this idea will end up with surface-only Arbutus trains running along False Creek South, and with commuters having to endure announcements like:

"Olympic Station! Transfer here for Canada Line trains to Downtown!"
or
"Science World Station! Transfer here for Expo Line trains to Downtown!"

More than a few people will ask themselves WTF they are using the Arbutus train, when driving is more convenient (but not cheaper).

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Zassk

A tunnel is a pipe dream. You could probably build a whole line from 4th to Marpole or Marine Stn for under $200 million. The tunnel you are describing would cost at least $500 million on its own.

Remember, we just built a double-bored tunnel across False Creek which is theoretically only being used at 1/3 of its capacity. No point in derailing other potential projects by saddling them with additional expensive tunnels.

Nevermind the minor detail that the ROW north of 4th Ave is owned by First Nations now.

I'd hope that the Squamish First Nation would be enthusiastic to have an Arbutus - Burrard transit line running past (or through) that property.
With a train station to make it a true TOD development.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Sadly, such cheapening of this idea will end up with surface-only Arbutus trains running along False Creek South, and with commuters having to endure announcements like:

"Olympic Station! Transfer here for Canada Line trains to Downtown!"
or
"Science World Station! Transfer here for Expo Line trains to Downtown!"

More than a few people will ask themselves WTF they are using the Arbutus train, when driving is more convenient (but not cheaper).

Yep. grade-separated-when-necessary is the only way to here. Dumbing down the project will only render it a problem in need
of expensive upgrading in future years. The arbutus line IMO should go downtown uunder the bridge at Burrard or somewhere, and ultimately hook up with the rest of the system downtown. Expensive? Yes. But it's not for some years, and it'd be a great infrastructural investment.

[spm2013]

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[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Yep. grade-separated-when-necessary is the only way to here.

Why? In many European cities streetcars are integrated as part of the street system with only partial separation (eg Vienna on the Ringstrasse). Yet it remains a popular form of transit. I know my preference when I lived in Vienna was the Strassenbahn -- even over the metro (which is excellent, btw). IIRC, Melbourne is grade-separated outside the CBD but part of the streetscape downtown, and it works great.

[spm2013]

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[go_leafs_go02]

As a rail junkie, it'll be neat to see trains travel on here again.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

As a rail junkie, it'll be neat to see trains travel on here again.

as a driver, I'm waiting for the first Car vs. Train accident after a dozen years of no train traffic.

"WTF?!??! Where'd you come from???!" sez the car driver.


No doubt the 'training' will include long pulls on the horn at each level crossing up & down Arbutus --- just to remind the locals who's in charge on these tracks.

I smell an election issue.

[spm2013]

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[AMTDGT]

Originally Posted by spm2013

This will be funny either way. In both cases Gregor loses.

Love it when that jerk flaps his gums over something he has no jurisdiction over....pipelines, shipping, railways, etc and the idiot press we have here in Vancouver gobbles it up......

My understanding he is the biggest impediment in the M line being extended toward UBC

[spm2013]

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[ssiguy]

Although I wouldn't like to see big trains rolling down Arbutus, it's the hypocracy and elitism that I can't stand. If the Arbutus corridor all of a sudden became a Main or Knight Street corridor, City Hall wouldn't give a shit.

IT's like the Canada Line which had to be buried or the Broadway corridor that will have to be buried. It's not that I disagree with it but obviously it's OK for the Eastside but not for the tony Westside. Even if there was an empty corridor running all the way from Commercial to UBC thru the Westside, we all know that it would NEVER get used due to the complete political power of the Westsiders.

It's like the Viaduct...............it can come down because it's a bridge connecting to the Eastside, while the equally ugly and visually instrusive Granville Bridge will never come down because it is used by Westsiders.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Although I wouldn't like to see big trains rolling down Arbutus, it's the hypocracy and elitism that I can't stand. If the Arbutus corridor all of a sudden became a Main or Knight Street corridor, City Hall wouldn't give a shit.

IT's like the Canada Line which had to be buried or the Broadway corridor that will have to be buried. It's not that I disagree with it but obviously it's OK for the Eastside but not for the tony Westside. Even if there was an empty corridor running all the way from Commercial to UBC thru the Westside, we all know that it would NEVER get used due to the complete political power of the Westsiders.

It's like the Viaduct...............it can come down because it's a bridge connecting to the Eastside, while the equally ugly and visually instrusive Granville Bridge will never come down because it is used by Westsiders.

i feel there is a lot of west-side hate on this site. i just get that vibe from a lot of people. mind you, though, that whole creme de le creme speech was stupid, moronic, and elitist. not everyone is like that on the westside. in their defense you can kind of see where they come from since they do pay more in taxes and the houses are worth a bunch more. lets face it, the rich have the power and the rich live on the westside.

well on the westsiders defense the Granville street bridge does go over water where as the viaduct is a bridge over land. roads on the ground can replace an elevated road. where as the Granville bridge will always be needed in some form since a bridge is the only way to make a road over water. you can't really compare those. (I'm for keeping the viaducts by the way).

back on topic, GFGR (Gregor Feel-Good Robertson), always has some say in something he has absolutely no control in. if he really wants a say in what happens to the Arbutus "green-way," that was made on private land not owned by anyone on it, then maybe the city should buy it from CP and then they can do something about it. im also not sad about people loosing their community gardens. they built them on private property, next to a train track, and now they go running to the mayor, who has no control, to want to stop the tracks being used. and of course GFGR makes it sound like he has control over it, when in fact he has absolutely no control.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

Love it when that jerk flaps his gums over something he has no jurisdiction over....pipelines, shipping, railways, etc and the idiot press we have here in Vancouver gobbles it up......

My understanding he is the biggest impediment in the M line being extended toward UBC

How so?

[djh]

I basically see it as an end to any possibility of running trams down Broadway. The chances of train vs tram contact would just be too great, so they would have to run the trams so slowly and with so many barriers and safety measures that it would basically make trams ineffective and too expensive and slow, compared to the alternatives.

Oh, what a shame.