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  #2081  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 9:33 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I find anything that Sean Chu is within 20 feet of is hard to take seriously, but in fairness 5km of tunneling will not be cheap (I think you'd only need to tunnel to 64th, after that there is ROW). But I'd rather we waited to figure out a proper solution to this than cheap out and ruin the whole line.
I totally agree.
Running surface up the middle of Centre St. north of 16th will be a disaster.

Last edited by craner; Jan 7, 2018 at 9:46 AM.
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  #2082  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 5:45 PM
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I totally agree.
Running surface up the middle of Centre St. north of 16th will be a disaster.
That'll create quite a mess on 4th Street NW and Edmonton Trail too. Underground to just past 64th would be best.
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  #2083  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 10:43 PM
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I think the concept of "best" also needs to have a flavour of value for money. Obviously underground will be seen as the best without considering value and timeline.

Is there a cost savings to be had with train underpasses at key locations (of which there are a handful) as opposed to bored underground w/ expensive and less accessible underground stations? I really did like the concept of lowfloor / activating ground level.
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  #2084  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 11:33 PM
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I think the concept of "best" also needs to have a flavour of value for money. Obviously underground will be seen as the best without considering value and timeline.

Is there a cost savings to be had with train underpasses at key locations (of which there are a handful) as opposed to bored underground w/ expensive and less accessible underground stations? I really did like the concept of lowfloor / activating ground level.
Absolutely value for money needs to be considered, I just wish Council would be honest when they pick a street running section over underground. Running the line at street level is objectively inferior to underground, as anyone who has used a proper metro would know. But there is one big advantage - cost, and that is the reason why this format would be chosen. Unfortunately a few members of council and modern urbanists have drank the koolaid and truly believe that a slow, unreliable streetcar is better than a fast, reliable grade separated train, as it is cute and urban. But the actual users of the line - commuters from the north, will not care less about the cutesy on Centre, they'll just be annoyed that their service has been cancelled again because of a collision.

'Activating ground level' is BS. This LRT will close the majority of intersections (so that it even has a hope of being reliable), which is going to make Centre St. a much less walkable place. It's also going to force two lanes of traffic into one, which despite what some would like to believe is not going to reduce traffic, it's just going to cause a long line of gridlocked cars - not my idea of a pleasant pedestrian experience.
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  #2085  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 1:28 AM
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Originally Posted by speedog View Post
That'll create quite a mess on 4th Street NW and Edmonton Trail too. Underground to just past 64th would be best.
Well, might as well have it underground everywhere, but you might want to consider that someone has to pay for that.
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  #2086  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 1:33 AM
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Maybe those members of council haven’t been drinking koolaid, but instead are grasping the reality of the situation. Unlike some people on this forum.

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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Absolutely value for money needs to be considered, I just wish Council would be honest when they pick a street running section over underground. Running the line at street level is objectively inferior to underground, as anyone who has used a proper metro would know. But there is one big advantage - cost, and that is the reason why this format would be chosen. Unfortunately a few members of council and modern urbanists have drank the koolaid and truly believe that a slow, unreliable streetcar is better than a fast, reliable grade separated train, as it is cute and urban. But the actual users of the line - commuters from the north, will not care less about the cutesy on Centre, they'll just be annoyed that their service has been cancelled again because of a collision.

'Activating ground level' is BS. This LRT will close the majority of intersections (so that it even has a hope of being reliable), which is going to make Centre St. a much less walkable place. It's also going to force two lanes of traffic into one, which despite what some would like to believe is not going to reduce traffic, it's just going to cause a long line of gridlocked cars - not my idea of a pleasant pedestrian experience.
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  #2087  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 3:10 AM
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Maybe those members of council haven’t been drinking koolaid, but instead are grasping the reality of the situation. Unlike some people on this forum.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but, the reality of the situation is that when the people who actually are experienced in this field looked at the best way to build the green line, they chose an almost entirely grade separated line. I imagine some on council were hoping that they would have proposed a 40km tram from north to south was the best option and signed off on it, but luckily our transit planners are more competent.
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  #2088  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 3:30 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but, the reality of the situation is that when the people who actually are experienced in this field looked at the best way to build the green line, they chose an almost entirely grade separated line. I imagine some on council were hoping that they would have proposed a 40km tram from north to south was the best option and signed off on it, but luckily our transit planners are more competent.
That and a lot of public push back to the design of the first phase resulted in some major changes. There's absolutely NO question that Druh and her buddies wanted an all surface line. It's in the public record. It's hilarious but not unexpected that some are claiming we're the ones drinking the Kool-Aid. Druh's so addicted to the complete urban agenda that she's incapable of making rational decisions now. With new council members this is a good time to revisit some of the far from desirable decisions made concerning the Green Line. If we can't afford to build it right then we should wait.
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  #2089  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 3:28 PM
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Last edited by DoubleK; Jan 8, 2018 at 3:30 PM. Reason: day late and a dollar short...
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  #2090  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
That and a lot of public push back to the design of the first phase resulted in some major changes. There's absolutely NO question that Druh and her buddies wanted an all surface line. It's in the public record. It's hilarious but not unexpected that some are claiming we're the ones drinking the Kool-Aid. Druh's so addicted to the complete urban agenda that she's incapable of making rational decisions now. With new council members this is a good time to revisit some of the far from desirable decisions made concerning the Green Line. If we can't afford to build it right then we should wait.
I'm beginning to wonder if the whole green line isn't going to be a massive waste of taxpayer dollars. Not only from the standpoint of Druh and her kool aid buddies pushing their agenda, but from an overall basic, do we need to spend 4.5 Billion dollars?
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  #2091  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 4:32 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I think tunneling would only have to go to 64th. After that there is a wider ROW, probably for this purpose, except inexplicably just before Beddington Trail where they have not left any room. And then it's plain sailing further north.
That's a weird one. Looking at the 1979 aerial photos the houses/businesses were in the process of being constructed north of Beddington, with no ROW even though the southern ROW was already in place. Very curious about that.
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  #2092  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 4:43 PM
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Can anyone point me to where I can find the detailed route map which shows closed roads and crosswalks, etc?
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  #2093  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but, the reality of the situation is that when the people who actually are experienced in this field looked at the best way to build the green line, they chose an almost entirely grade separated line. I imagine some on council were hoping that they would have proposed a 40km tram from north to south was the best option and signed off on it, but luckily our transit planners are more competent.
I think he's referring to your comment about having the whole system below grade, and how it's much better than above ground. It's not exactly news, but the fact is we can't afford to pay for a system like that, as nice as it might be.
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  #2094  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 8:00 PM
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Can anyone point me to where I can find the detailed route map which shows closed roads and crosswalks, etc?
Sounds like a simple question, but it actually is surprisingly hard to find. The green line website just shows the high level map. Which doesn't have any of the details of tunnels vs bridges vs level crossings.

The Green Line was officially approved by City Council at the meeting on 26 June 2017. Item 9.1 presents the Green Line LRT Alignment and Stations. Under that there are 17 Attachments showing the details.

1.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Cover Report.pdf
2.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Attach 1.pdf
3.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Attach 2.pdf
4.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Attach 3.pdf
5.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Attach 4 Program Milestones.pdf
6.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Attach 5 Laying tracks for delivering the Green Line LRT.pdf
7.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Attach 6 Beltine to InglewoodRamsay Station Alignment Options Evaluation.pdf
8.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Distribution Report.pdf
9.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Distribution PowerPoint.pdf
10.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Distribution Booklet.pdf
11.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Distribution Booklet.pdf
12.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Distribution Attach 1.pdf
13.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Distribution Attach 2.pdf
14.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Distribution Attach 3.pdf
15.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Distribution Attach 4.pdf
16.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Distribution Attach 5.pdf
17.GREEN LINE LRT ALIGNMENT AND STATIONS160 AVENUE N Distribution Attach 6.pdf

But there is still hard to find a detailed map in all of those attachments. Item #4 appears to have the most details, including some very detailed maps.

Last edited by ggopher; Jan 8, 2018 at 8:40 PM.
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  #2095  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 9:17 PM
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Sounds like a simple question, but it actually is surprisingly hard to find. The green line website just shows the high level map. Which doesn't have any of the details of tunnels vs bridges vs level crossings.
Thanks! I knew I had seen these before, but had no idea where. As you said the greenline site has just very general overview map.
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  #2096  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post

'Activating ground level' is BS. This LRT will close the majority of intersections (so that it even has a hope of being reliable), which is going to make Centre St. a much less walkable place. It's also going to force two lanes of traffic into one, which despite what some would like to believe is not going to reduce traffic, it's just going to cause a long line of gridlocked cars - not my idea of a pleasant pedestrian experience.
https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=13290

If the maps in this document are to be taken as accurate, it looks like Centre between 16th ave and 40th ave will go from 10 ped crossings to 8 (3 closed, one new). So for ped movement it won't change too much, but my bigger concern is the LRT potentially stopping 10 times in what might normally be a 9 minute 'drive'.

Although I share the idea that underground to 64th is best, at the least it should probably be underground until 32nd or 40th.
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  #2097  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 1:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=13290

If the maps in this document are to be taken as accurate, it looks like Centre between 16th ave and 40th ave will go from 10 ped crossings to 8 (3 closed, one new). So for ped movement it won't change too much, but my bigger concern is the LRT potentially stopping 10 times in what might normally be a 9 minute 'drive'.

Although I share the idea that underground to 64th is best, at the least it should probably be underground until 32nd or 40th.
That's the thing. When building a street level LRT, the city must choose what its priorities are - either they promote speed, reliability and capacity (the important things) and close the majority of intersections and crossings, or they prioritise the pedestrian experience and keep all the current intersections and put in mid block crossings. For an in street LRT, just doing one of those two things is unrealistic, but it's impossible to do both. Yet that is the image the City is presenting us - it's dishonest. The worst thing though, is that some of our councillors really do appear to believe the lie.
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  #2098  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 1:50 AM
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Thanks for posting that link, it has been hard to get the exact plans and that is exactly what I wanted.

One interesting thing I have just noticed - 7th ave station is placed between 5th and 7th, rather than where I would expect which would be between 8th and 7th, to allow interchange with the 'future' 8th ave tunnel. Makes me even less optimistic it'll ever get built.
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  #2099  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 3:25 AM
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From watching the alignment video ( is the whole line alignment video still available on YouTube?), I believe the whole row of houses in that northern narrow section of beddington has to be demolished, as the line pretty much goes through their front yards, if not actually through the houses.

Edit: video link here
https://youtu.be/00aSjWkFRDw
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  #2100  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 4:36 AM
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In that video houses all still there but road about 3 times as wide lol. I wish that this would have been finished in time for me to use the train during my apprenticeship. So much easier to jump on the train 15 minutes from my house and not have to worry about parking or anything like that.
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