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  #1421  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 7:44 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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Not sure why people complain about Amtrak. Transportation infrastructure is expensive. Highways get a whole lot more in subsidies than Amtrak but nobody seems to care about that.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...-costs/412237/
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  #1422  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 8:32 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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^ That's a whole other issue. To me, every highway should be tolled. But for some reason, the powers that be believe that mass transit should be self-sufficient but highways don't. I guess we're moving pretty far away from the thread topic. But I think we can all agree that America's infrastructure is in dire need of improvement.
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  #1423  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 10:03 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
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^^^^Agreed that Amtrak is not a central feature of the Schuylkill Yards development, but if Amtrak was a better supplier of train transit it would certainly help the 'Yards' be a more attractive site. And yes Amtrak doesn't have the public support they should have, but they also consistently shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak, which makes them just that much more unattractive to those who for some reason would like all trains to go away.
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  #1424  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
^ That's a whole other issue. To me, every highway should be tolled. But for some reason, the powers that be believe that mass transit should be self-sufficient but highways don't. I guess we're moving pretty far away from the thread topic. But I think we can all agree that America's infrastructure is in dire need of improvement.
Isn't that what the federal gasoline tax is for? The can has been kicked down the road for so long that the problem festered until a fix can't be avoided any longer.

Look at Europe and Asia with respect to their use of (high speed) trains. We are not these countries with high speed or a viable business model because of the convenience of driving and the ample amount of roads and cheap gas. Quite frankly, we as Americans have more of a love affair with cars than trains. Amtrak isn't the transportation model for the US overall. More of a niche with some segments that are popular and well received and economically viable. Plus the cost of a trip on Amtrak can't compete with the cost of driving. Disclaimer: Some segments work but most don't (e.g. loses $) and really not that appealing for anything greater than 100 miles (minus business use when a company pays). Overall, much easier to drive to get where you are going than to take a train.

Last edited by iheartphilly; Mar 6, 2019 at 2:12 AM.
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  #1425  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 4:57 AM
digitallagasse digitallagasse is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
Isn't that what the federal gasoline tax is for? The can has been kicked down the road for so long that the problem festered until a fix can't be avoided any longer.
Yes the gas tax is for that except that it doesn't even cover the cost of maintenance let alone replacement costs. Not raising the gas tax for so long just made that hole deeper. Under fund anything for long enough and trying to fix all of it isn't going to be financially possible. It is bad enough maintenance is under funded but it is the further lack of replacement cost funding that brings the ruin.
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  #1426  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 5:56 AM
wanderer34 wanderer34 is offline
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That's excessive simplification. Amtrak's longest routes, such as the Empire Builder, end up being self-subsidizing, because the land cruisers pay a premium that covers (most of) the day-trippers' fares. (By this logic, adding more land-cruise berths to such trains would allow them to cover their own expenses.)

The real problem is the routes that are too long to be meaningful corridor services but too short/not scenic enough to start attracting land cruise attention. It's the Crescent, Silver Meteor, Cardinal, and similar trains that are Amtrak's biggest money pits, for this reason. The solution to which would obviously be to invest in more corridor service to cross-subsidize what we could term "essential intercity service" ... and there are plenty of unproven/underutilized potential rail corridors in the US.

For example, the Lincoln service sees nearly 600k rides a year, the Hiawatha and Michigan services each some 800k, with the best-developed medium-speed routes e.g. the Empire Corridor, Keystone Service, San Joaquin, and Capitol Corridor, seeing 1.2-1.5 million rides a year, and the Pacific Surfliner, at almost 3 million rides, is an extreme outlier ... keep in mind here these are sub-medium-speed corridors from a global standpoint, too.

But this has always been Amtrak's problem. To make money it essentially has to demonstrate a market for premium service (either via land cruises or HSR) to -- at minimum -- cross-subsidize underperforming essential rail services. But the only way to demonstrate (or create) such a market is by providing popular --- but breakeven -- corridor services adequate to spur further rail investment in the area. Unfortunately -- and in part because it only enjoys limited public support -- every time Amtrak has successfully done so, it gets met with a chorus of "It can't work in our part of the country!" (Actually, it usually can.)
Amtrak, in comparison to other worldwide train services like in Europe and Asia pales greatly, and add the fact that America is so huge and gasoline is relatively cheap and highway subsidies from the federal gov't. What Amtrak needs to do is concentrate on it's heavily used lines like the Northeast Corridor and the Pennsylvanian, and maybe add some new lines, such as a line from Philadelphia to Scranton and Albany, NY, and even develop high speed lines from Detroit to Chicago and from Boston and NYC to Montreal.

As for the cross-country routes, it would make sense to run less trains if the lines aren't as heavily utilized. Florida has already started it's privately funded high speed service, the Brightline, which is expected to reach Orlando from Miami in 2022 and hopefully to Jacksonville and Tampa later on. I believe that Amtrak needs a new business model in order to survive because nowadays we could've had a Philadelphia - Pittsburgh Acela service but Amtrak doesn't really put it's money to where service is sorely needed.
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  #1427  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 12:15 PM
skyscraper skyscraper is offline
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I believe that Amtrak needs a new business model in order to survive
Yes, privatize it.
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  #1428  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 1:17 PM
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Yes, privatize it.
You think privatizing Amtrak would make it BETTER? Privitize the highway system too while you're at it. I'm sure it would make traveling a joy.
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  #1429  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 1:22 PM
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You think privatizing Amtrak would make it BETTER?
Um, yes.
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  #1430  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 1:39 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
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^ Would definitely not be leveraged and gutted to pay for excessive executive salaries and sold for scrap.
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  #1431  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 3:26 PM
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Yes, privatize it.
In other words kill it!
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  #1432  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 3:30 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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yeah, privatizing Amtrak isn't going to work. Maybe the service portion could be in some way, but the infrastructure is just too expensive to upkeep, as with the highways. Focusing on improving service for the densely populated corridors is obviously a good idea. But I don't think killing long-distance routes is necessarily a good idea. Some states only have these routes, so they'd probably fight any measure to remove them. Some of these routes are also pretty beloved for their scenic value. Maybe the answer is that they are separated from Amtrak into some sort of quasi-privatized heritage service.

I wish someone would tag the transportation thread as philly...
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  #1433  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 3:48 PM
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Amtrak needs more funding and funding that is guaranteed year over year, not relying on the fickle political whims of mainly conservatives to keep it afloat. But it's this way because it was never intended to succeed. The NRPC was intentionally framed to fail, and be killed off permantly at the hands of idiological repubs, but it didn't work out that way, so they've been trying to just partially suffocate it ever since. I would highly recommend reading Waiting on a Train if you want to understand Amtrak.

I want to see Amtrak given consistant and guaranteed long-term funding and of course long term capital funding from a future infrastructure bill to create a true high speed rail East Coast mainline from Boston-Miami with a branch thru Charlotte to Atlanta. A binational agreement to build Montreal - NYC also needs to happen.
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Last edited by Busy Bee; Mar 6, 2019 at 4:06 PM.
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  #1434  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 3:58 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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^^that would be great. Both the east and west costs need true high speed rail (or maybe even maglev), but the east cost is where it should start.
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  #1435  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 4:45 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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Outside the NE corridor, Amtrak should be used as an alternative, not to driving, but for flying. I used to travel a lot to Pittsburgh for work, which takes about 5 hours to get to, by plane or driving. When you fly, you have to factor in the time it takes to get to the airport, to park, to get to your terminal, go through security, and get to your gate before boarding even begins; and then you have to repeat all those steps at your destination. A 35 minute flight easily turns to a five hour trip, and not a very pleasant one when you factor in everything. I'd love to see Amtrak utilized for those medium-distance destinations, like Philly to Boston, Pittsburgh, Richmond, Charlotte, Cleveland, etc. The places that are a little far to drive to (esp for business travelers) but a bit ridiculous to fly to.
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  #1436  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 5:05 PM
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Why does the general public hold Amtrak to the expectation of profitability? Amtrak should not be ran as a business, but rather as a public corporation (instead of quasi-public) fully backed by the federal government. Amtrak operates an essential service, especially along densely populated corridors and in rural areas underserved by other modes of transit. Amtrak shouldn't have to shutter long-distance routes or reduce service due to funding; instead, the level of funding should be drastically increased at the federal level, as it should for all transit (yes, I'm aware that Amtrak typically operates intercity services).

How come Amtrak and public transit operators are expected to be profitable, but highways aren't? Why should Amtrak struggle for funding while roadways easily receive funds for upgrades? This country is ridiculous at times, and its voters are very hypocritical. I'd love to see the gas tax significantly hiked at the federal level, as motorists don't pay anywhere near the true cost of their infrastructure. Motorists continue to receive extreme subsidies while people who live in cities (like myself) and transit-accessible urbanized areas, where the vast majority of this nation's wealth is accumulated, get shafted out of transportation options due to "costs." It's simply not right!
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  #1437  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 5:32 PM
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I think we all know that the real reason that the American passenger rail industry is struggling is apathy.
The government was paid off not to care in the fifties and sixties by the automobile industry, and half a century has passed. Why should they care now, when most people just assume that the right way to go is investing in road infrastructure, since everyone drives, right?
It's partially a cultural thing, and it isn't going to go away for awhile.
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  #1438  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 6:14 PM
skyscraper skyscraper is offline
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In other words kill it!
in its current form, yes. kill it, and burn it. then from its ashes could arise a more efficient and well run system that serves essential routes, and prunes routes that are not as essential - as dictated by the ridership market. it would be run for profit, like any other service, which would force it to streamline.
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  #1439  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 6:35 PM
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^^^^^as soon as the gov't privatizes much of the military, where the big bucks are, then I'd be ok with them looking at the nickel and dime stuff like Amtrak. Admittedly I don't think Amtrak knows what it's doing and doesn't do a very good job at it, but until there are variable options, it's all we got going right now.
If someone wants to take a area like Texas and go for a private system, well, more power to them. Call me when that's about ready to happen!
What other country, anywhere, operates their transportation systems as a profit maker? The UK tried, and it a couple years that model fell apart, and now the central gov't is left trying to pick through the mess.
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  #1440  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 6:40 PM
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^
Ha! Maybe the guys in Texas should talk to the guy in Florida who is privatizing his own rail line and get some pointers. At the end of the day, no business person in their right mind will make such a huge private investment (vis-a-vis, with investors), unless the business model is profitable and backed up by a solid business plan and a real demand for this service.

Didn't elon musk try that with the hyper loop. Any one have an idea where that is now and when it can be expected to come into service, if at all.
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