Winnipeg | Osborne Village & Corydon area

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

This isn't completely true -- West exchange has residence interdispersed in the area... Above Shwarma Khan/Tiny Feast, above the Peasant Cookery, behind King's Head, the hemisphere building, penthouse... I wouldn't say it's anything what the East Exchange is getting, but it is developing on its own.

The residents in the Penthouse are renters. But the residents in the Peasant Cookery building are the ones I was referring to. In all, there are few. Especially few who own and they're who matter in a discussion like this. Renters tend to stay quiet on these issues because they can very easily move.

[buzzg]

I have very little sympathy for people who move into urban areas like Corydon or especially the Exchange, and then complain about noise and people being out on the street and bars. Sorry, but no one forced you to move there, and it's not like that was all you could afford... you paid EXTRA to live there (compared to suburbs).

Especially that whole R:ED thing with Union Sound Hall... Buddy, that place has been a night club on and off for 30 years, and the argument it was "supposed to be live music only" is stupid because often bands with drums are much louder than a DJ. It's clear they didn't want "DJ people" there, which is funny because it's those young people that often spend the most money on going out in that area.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I have very little sympathy for people who move into urban areas like Corydon or especially the Exchange, and then complain about noise and people being out on the street and bars. Sorry, but no one forced you to move there, and it's not like that was all you could afford... you paid EXTRA to live there (compared to suburbs).

Especially that whole R:ED thing with Union Sound Hall... Buddy, that place has been a night club on and off for 30 years, and the argument it was "supposed to be live music only" is stupid because often bands with drums are much louder than a DJ. It's clear they didn't want "DJ people" there, which is funny because it's those young people that often spend the most money on going out in that area.

In most of the areas these people actually paid well below what the existing market is. This is why I say these things go in waves. At the time of their purchase their primary motive was being close to the party. Now it's protecting their equity. Everybody hates people in their 20's except people in their 20's.

[biguc]

Corydon is a fine neighborhood street and I'm not sure we should expect anything more of it. It had its day in the '90s as the city's go-to street when it was the furthest point north that didn't terrify suburbanites. Nowadays it's OK if you don't mind hanging out with Kelvin coke heads--the source of some of the shadiness at Bar-I and Spin you guys have been talking about. Corydon actually has a hilariously similar dynamic to lots of suburban areas in that its bars are full of losers who went to the local high school and never moved out of their parents' basements. Whether it's the Nor-Villa in North K or the Thirsty Lion in Charleswood, their patrons are primarily cradle to grave shit-heels who can't be fucked to get on with their lives. The same story is true of Bar I.


In any case, the Corydon neighborhood is doing a fine job of incrementally increasing density, which will eventually feed into greater demand for services. It already has a strong base of services so it won't be stuck in a high-population, low-service trap like Bro-Ass is trying to dig its way out of. As far as neighborhood streets go, it's actually pretty terrible when it comes to basic amenities. It could really use another grocery store and a liquor store. I'm sure over the next 20 years we'll see it fill in towards Pembina and the RT line and we won't even think about it any more.

Originally Posted by Simplicity

One thing they both have in common is that, like Corydon, 'Downtown' is trendy at the moment and areas move with the times. That goes for pretty much everywhere. 10-15 years ago downtown wasn't fashionable because the trends favoured other aesthetics. Von Dutch trucker hats and $400 7even jeans did well in places like Bar Italia because Corydon represented an inner city suburbia. Today the trends are towards things that are better represented by 'character'-driven, dirty, downtown environments, but that will change too. It's sort of notable that eChildren is one of the only stores in the Exchange that never turns over. The rest will go out with their clientele. There was once a decent retail presence on Corydon too.

This is a hilarious commentary. I took a rare trip to Corydon a few weeks back for dinner. I couldn't get over the people. It wasn't like they were from Fargo and still wearing Von Dutch hats and jeans with fleur-de-lis stitched on the ass pockets, but they were the people who dressed like that ten years ago. They all had their Hitler Youth hair cuts and cuffed selve-edge denim like good trendy-boys, but they were just too damn neat about it. Their parts were too clean and their cuffs too ironed. I like to think that them all being 35 had nothing to do with it but the effect was to make them look like jerkoffs.

My point is that Corydon has picked up the artifice of today's style and the people stuck in that scene try to look the part but they, like Corydon itself, are missing a crucial element. You suggest it's the gritty authenticity that's become trendy today and I think you're right. But remember how graffiti was the scourge of Corydon ten years ago? The defining aesthetic of the last decade was definitely more flashy and douchey than today's, but to the suburban hip-hop kids who tagged up Corydon storefronts, that neighborhood was authentic.

The obvious irony here is that what they were doing was incredibly inauthentic and was, in fact, fake as fuck. But as hip-hop--and greater douche culture--has fallen by the wayside and hipsterdom has risen to the mainstream and crashed to irrelevance they've both proven to be as much artificial chaff as all the undercuts on Corydon.

This is all just the greater march of gentrification and in Winnipeg it follows this city's clear economic geography: North is poor, south is rich. For most of my adolescence the Assiniboine River seemed like an impassible frontier with civilization to the south and the Great Sioux Nation to the north. Of course, it was an easy idea to disabuse myself of and thousands of others have managed to as well. The push north is on and it's manifest destiny for all us south-end bitches until we hit the CPR line.

We aren't witnessing a change in taste from smooth to rough as much as we're witnessing a constant search for novelty. Just like Americans used up the land in the east and moved west, then used up the cities in the east and moved west more, Winnipeggers are using up the authenticity of their neighborhoods and moving north. Remember when Osborne Village was the bohemian heart of the city? Nowadays, it's the "EMS workers living in condos" heart of the city. What authenticity it had left got kicked out of Collective Cabaret by American Apparel. Authenticity moved to West Broadway ten years ago and now it's moved north again. The only artists I know who still live south of Portage have lackeys expert in writing grant applications.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by biguc

Corydon is a fine neighborhood street and I'm not sure we should expect anything more of it. It had its day in the '90s as the city's go-to street when it was the furthest point north that didn't terrify suburbanites. Nowadays it's OK if you don't mind hanging out with Kelvin coke heads--the source of some of the shadiness at Bar-I and Spin you guys have been talking about. Corydon actually has a hilariously similar dynamic to lots of suburban areas in that its bars are full of losers who went to the local high school and never moved out of their parents' basements. Whether it's the Nor-Villa in North K or the Thirsty Lion in Charleswood, their patrons are primarily cradle to grave shit-heels who can't be fucked to get on with their lives. The same story is true of Bar I.


In any case, the Corydon neighborhood is doing a fine job of incrementally increasing density, which will eventually feed into greater demand for services. It already has a strong base of services so it won't be stuck in a high-population, low-service trap like Bro-Ass is trying to dig its way out of. As far as neighborhood streets go, it's actually pretty terrible when it comes to basic amenities. It could really use another grocery store and a liquor store. I'm sure over the next 20 years we'll see it fill in towards Pembina and the RT line and we won't even think about it any more.





This is a hilarious commentary. I took a rare trip to Corydon a few weeks back for dinner. I couldn't get over the people. It wasn't like they were from Fargo and still wearing Von Dutch hats and jeans with fleur-de-lis stitched on the ass pockets, but they were the people who dressed like that ten years ago. They all had their Hitler Youth hair cuts and cuffed selve-edge denim like good trendy-boys, but they were just too damn neat about it. Their parts were too clean and their cuffs too ironed. I like to think that them all being 35 had nothing to do with it but the effect was to make them look like jerkoffs.

My point is that Corydon has picked up the artifice of today's style and the people stuck in that scene try to look the part but they, like Corydon itself, are missing a crucial element. You suggest it's the gritty authenticity that's become trendy today and I think you're right. But remember how graffiti was the scourge of Corydon ten years ago? The defining aesthetic of the last decade was definitely more flashy and douchey than today's, but to the suburban hip-hop kids who tagged up Corydon storefronts, that neighborhood was authentic.

The obvious irony here is that what they were doing was incredibly inauthentic and was, in fact, fake as fuck. But as hip-hop--and greater douche culture--has fallen by the wayside and hipsterdom has risen to the mainstream and crashed to irrelevance they've both proven to be as much artificial chaff as all the undercuts on Corydon.

This is all just the greater march of gentrification and in Winnipeg it follows this city's clear economic geography: North is poor, south is rich. For most of my adolescence the Assiniboine River seemed like an impassible frontier with civilization to the south and the Great Sioux Nation to the north. Of course, it was an easy idea to disabuse myself of and thousands of others have managed to as well. The push north is on and it's manifest destiny for all us south-end bitches until we hit the CPR line.

We aren't witnessing a change in taste from smooth to rough as much as we're witnessing a constant search for novelty. Just like Americans used up the land in the east and moved west, then used up the cities in the east and moved west more, Winnipeggers are using up the authenticity of their neighborhoods and moving north. Remember when Osborne Village was the bohemian heart of the city? Nowadays, it's the "EMS workers living in condos" heart of the city. What authenticity it had left got kicked out of Collective Cabaret by American Apparel. Authenticity moved to West Broadway ten years ago and now it's moved north again. The only artists I know who still live south of Portage have lackeys expert in writing grant applications.

Well put. That was a good read.

I think we're saying similar things, though. Neighbourhoods have their day in the sun; they move with the trends. Downtown is where it's at for the moment, but that won't last either. A lot of this is demographic too. We're an aging community by most standards. I'm not so dire on suburban living because most of who we consider the youth of today will statistically end up living there and there isn't much youth coming up behind. If it takes the youth to keep these areas thriving, there will be less and less of it to do so...

[The Unknown Poster]

its interesting you mention that about neighbourhoods. I grew up in South Winnipeg and worked bars around town for years. We were recently talking about the decline of the Pembina strip from a few years back when it had a lot of suburban "nightclubs" for the kiddies that were fairly busy. No more Monty's, no more Palladium and "Coyotes" changes names every six months because no one goes there.

How many thousands of kids on campus...where do they all go now? used to be lined up around the building at all these bars. Now they are dead.

[snowmobile]

Originally Posted by The Unknown Poster

its interesting you mention that about neighbourhoods. I grew up in South Winnipeg and worked bars around town for years. We were recently talking about the decline of the Pembina strip from a few years back when it had a lot of suburban "nightclubs" for the kiddies that were fairly busy. No more Monty's, no more Palladium and "Coyotes" changes names every six months because no one goes there.

How many thousands of kids on campus...where do they all go now? used to be lined up around the building at all these bars. Now they are dead.

It's weird how clubs rise and fall. When I was in school the Ranch was the student night spot and then all of a sudden it was Area.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by The Unknown Poster

its interesting you mention that about neighbourhoods. I grew up in South Winnipeg and worked bars around town for years. We were recently talking about the decline of the Pembina strip from a few years back when it had a lot of suburban "nightclubs" for the kiddies that were fairly busy. No more Monty's, no more Palladium and "Coyotes" changes names every six months because no one goes there.

How many thousands of kids on campus...where do they all go now? used to be lined up around the building at all these bars. Now they are dead.

They're all hopping on Rapid Transit busses and going downtown.

I say that sarcastically but it's actually true in many cases... Lots of U of M students (from here and out of town) are either living Downtown or in the Village and bus out there, or live near U of M but still like to go out in the good areas.

Realistically, it's not like university schedules are M-F 9-5, so lots of times people don't even end up having to take the bus to/from U of M in rush hour.

[The Unknown Poster]

I think its partially the bars in the area wanting to be something they're not.

When the Palladium became the Stratosphere, they spent a lot of money on renovations and opened as a "higher end" bar with more expensive prices, chasing the downtown crowd. It lasted about six months and then struggled for a year. Then it switched to The Lid just about overnight, dropped prices and embraced the University crowd and was packed again.

I was in Reset last weekend on a saturday and the only people in there were clearly University-type kids in hoodies and jeans. No one was dancing to the annoying techno crap being spun by a "DJ". Plug in an iPod playing top 100, mainstream dance and a few country hits and they'd be dancing. But then you cant pat yourself on the back for charging $5.50 a beer.

I then went next door to Vodka Rocks. Exactly the same thing. Virtually no one there. The crowd that was there were not dress up downtown bar people and the DJ was spinning techno garbage like it was New York City.

Know your audience. When The Lid, The Beach and Monty's did battle, hundreds of people would move back and forth depending on which club lowered/raised their price by $0.25. The latest goofy DJ name on the sign made little difference.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by The Unknown Poster

I think its partially the bars in the area wanting to be something they're not.

When the Palladium became the Stratosphere, they spent a lot of money on renovations and opened as a "higher end" bar with more expensive prices, chasing the downtown crowd. It lasted about six months and then struggled for a year. Then it switched to The Lid just about overnight, dropped prices and embraced the University crowd and was packed again.

I was in Reset last weekend on a saturday and the only people in there were clearly University-type kids in hoodies and jeans. No one was dancing to the annoying techno crap being spun by a "DJ". Plug in an iPod playing top 100, mainstream dance and a few country hits and they'd be dancing. But then you cant pat yourself on the back for charging $5.50 a beer.

I then went next door to Vodka Rocks. Exactly the same thing. Virtually no one there. The crowd that was there were not dress up downtown bar people and the DJ was spinning techno garbage like it was New York City.

Know your audience. When The Lid, The Beach and Monty's did battle, hundreds of people would move back and forth depending on which club lowered/raised their price by $0.25. The latest goofy DJ name on the sign made little difference.

Part of the reason the management changed was because of turnover by staff... All the good bartenders moved from these bars to the ones that were more upscale because they made more money. Then they were stuck with crappy bartenders and BA's working bar with 5 months of experience. It wasn't good for some of the places.

They tried to move to an upscale market partly to get bigger profits, but also to retain talent.

As for the newer stuff -- they are being funded with other sources.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by The Unknown Poster

I think its partially the bars in the area wanting to be something they're not.

When the Palladium became the Stratosphere, they spent a lot of money on renovations and opened as a "higher end" bar with more expensive prices, chasing the downtown crowd. It lasted about six months and then struggled for a year. Then it switched to The Lid just about overnight, dropped prices and embraced the University crowd and was packed again.

I was in Reset last weekend on a saturday and the only people in there were clearly University-type kids in hoodies and jeans. No one was dancing to the annoying techno crap being spun by a "DJ". Plug in an iPod playing top 100, mainstream dance and a few country hits and they'd be dancing. But then you cant pat yourself on the back for charging $5.50 a beer.

I then went next door to Vodka Rocks. Exactly the same thing. Virtually no one there. The crowd that was there were not dress up downtown bar people and the DJ was spinning techno garbage like it was New York City.

Know your audience. When The Lid, The Beach and Monty's did battle, hundreds of people would move back and forth depending on which club lowered/raised their price by $0.25. The latest goofy DJ name on the sign made little difference.

The upscale thing is very true. Look when Opera opened — they tried to be super upscale, you had to buy a table in order to sit down, they charged stupid prices, etc. It lasted 2 months like that before they redid the layout and added more seating and lowered the prices. This isn't Toronto or Vegas, not everyone has a grand to drop on a table.

[Simplicity]

Interesting read given the subject matter in this thread over the past week...

http://www.governing.com/columns/urb...-suburban.html

[The Unknown Poster]

Im not sure bartender turn over was really much of an issue. Maybe if you werent busy enough to have a regular staff. But no one at a suburban bar is looking for a flair bartender and the vast majority are drinking beer or shots anyway. Easy to hire young people to be bartenders where the free booze, cool factor and easy tail is almost as important as the money.

Where I worked (The Lid), most of our bartenders were long time employees. In fact, most of the staff were very long term employees because it was a fun place to work and management treated us very well. Even during the dark days when it was a ghost town, only a small percentage of the staff left. We stayed because we felt a commitment to the owners.

These other places need to realise. 500 people paying $3 cover and $2.50 a drink is better then 40 people paying $5 cover and $5/drink.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by The Unknown Poster

Im not sure bartender turn over was really much of an issue. Maybe if you werent busy enough to have a regular staff. But no one at a suburban bar is looking for a flair bartender and the vast majority are drinking beer or shots anyway. Easy to hire young people to be bartenders where the free booze, cool factor and easy tail is almost as important as the money.

Where I worked (The Lid), most of our bartenders were long time employees. In fact, most of the staff were very long term employees because it was a fun place to work and management treated us very well. Even during the dark days when it was a ghost town, only a small percentage of the staff left. We stayed because we felt a commitment to the owners.

These other places need to realise. 500 people paying $3 cover and $2.50 a drink is better then 40 people paying $5 cover and $5/drink.

No one wants a flair bartender... They want their drinks fast and accurate. That's what makes a good bartender. Having worked at Wiseguy's on Campus, Monty's, and Coyote's I can tell you that the first and second had a lot of trouble with staff turn over. When I got to Coyote's it was a little different. All the good bartenders at Wiseguy's and Monty's would leave because they were both "university bars" for the most part and the college kids wouldn't tip. I'm assuming that Scandel's/The Beach/The OC/Whatever else had the same problems.

Coyote's managed to have both university and some older regulars come over from the Pal, so the staff were happy with the money. I really don't know what happened to that place that changed things.

I never worked at The Lid, but I remember going there for reverse cover Friday's a few times. And I'm sure you could get a lot of kids apply for bartender jobs, but that doesn't mean they are good. The bar could make good money at those rates, but that doesn't mean they can get the good bartenders/BA's to stay. Training new staff is a big bite out of that revenue.

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

No one wants a flair bartender... They want their drinks fast and accurate. That's what makes a good bartender. Having worked at Wiseguy's on Campus, Monty's, and Coyote's I can tell you that the first and second had a lot of trouble with staff turn over. When I got to Coyote's it was a little different. All the good bartenders at Wiseguy's and Monty's would leave because they were both "university bars" for the most part and the college kids wouldn't tip. I'm assuming that Scandel's/The Beach/The OC/Whatever else had the same problems.

Coyote's managed to have both university and some older regulars come over from the Pal, so the staff were happy with the money. I really don't know what happened to that place that changed things.

I never worked at The Lid, but I remember going there for reverse cover Friday's a few times. And I'm sure you could get a lot of kids apply for bartender jobs, but that doesn't mean they are good. The bar could make good money at those rates, but that doesn't mean they can get the good bartenders/BA's to stay. Training new staff is a big bite out of that revenue.

I know Monty's had issues with management especially when they were sold. A lot of staff left. The Lid had a lot of "lifers" working there as I said. What was amusing was the amount of young people who took bartending courses that would apply and generally not get hired. As you said, speed and accuracy was most important. For that area, if you can open a beer and push a button on a gun, you're doing alright.

Lid didnt have much staff turnover. Everyone there was tight and management treated us right. When it closed for renos (between Palladium and Stratosphere) a few people left and went to Coyotes. Even when the Lid closed for good when the hotel expanded, many staff stayed on.

[buzzg]

Most bars would laugh at you if you came in and applied for a job and said "I got my bartending licence" as if that's actually a real thing. You learned how to make drinks that 90% of people don't know about or forgot existed.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Most bars would laugh at you if you came in and applied for a job and said "I got my bartending licence" as if that's actually a real thing. You learned how to make drinks that 90% of people don't know about or forgot existed.

+1... People who take those courses are idiots if they think they will get a bartending position at any of the busy bars. I could see it working for something like a lounge but no way would a bar hire someone just because they know how to mix a tom collins.

As for Unknown Poster -- Who from the Lid came to Coyotes? I was there for a while, around 2 and a half years, and I don't remember people coming over... And we never used guns, always bottles on the rail.

[Simplicity]

Everybody needs to take a good read through the letter attached to this appeal. Quick backgrounder: Class B variances don't require public hearings provided nobody appeals the order within the two week posting. But that isn't going to stop this crazy woman. Long story short, this presumable triplex wants to put up a garage which is well within their rights. Of course, narrow lots make things difficult, so they're asking to encroach on the buffer by 6" on either side leaving a side yard of 1.5' on each side. Pretty common stuff given the dimensions of a two-car garage door.

So, keeping in mind that this garage is going to get built one way or another - either with these minor variances or without them - the lady across the lane writes in to say that the owners of the property should not be able to to build the garage at all because "[She] would like to think that somebody would be less likely to dig up [her] perennials when they are working under someone's windows". In other words, she's suggesting that the garage is going to compromise the view of the main floor unit in the other building to a point where they will no longer be able to function as her de facto 24-hr garden security and as such is appealing whether the garage can encroach on two sideyards that have absolutely no impact on her property. She is so completely consumed with herself that her neighbours can't have a garage should there be a confluence of two of the most unlikely events on earth: a) there's a roving perennial thief who's been specifically eyeing her peony bush; b) the people on the main floor unit of the house across the lane are home, at the window, witness this egregious theft and care enough to put a stop to it.

And because the planning department has already approved these variances, they're heading straight to the appeals committee where this nonsense will consume the time of 4 sitting councilors.

For whatever reason, the meritorious complaints never make it to the meetings. Only the crazies show up. It's difficult not to imagine complete fatigue with the process on behalf of the councilors when you're forced to listen to this garbage week in and week out.

Anyway, here's the gold....

http://clkapps.winnipeg.ca/dmis/View...onId=&InitUrl=

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Everybody needs to take a good read through the letter attached to this appeal. Quick backgrounder: Class B variances don't require public hearings provided nobody appeals the order within the two week posting. But that isn't going to stop this crazy woman. Long story short, this presumable triplex wants to put up a garage which is well within their rights. Of course, narrow lots make things difficult, so they're asking to encroach on the buffer by 6" on either side leaving a side yard of 1.5' on each side. Pretty common stuff given the dimensions of a two-car garage door.

So, keeping in mind that this garage is going to get built one way or another - either with these minor variances or without them - the lady across the lane writes in to say that the owners of the property should not be able to to build the garage at all because "[She] would like to think that somebody would be less likely to dig up [her] perennials when they are working under someone's windows". In other words, she's suggesting that the garage is going to compromise the view of the main floor unit in the other building to a point where they will no longer be able to function as her de facto 24-hr garden security and as such is appealing whether the garage can encroach on two sideyards that have absolutely no impact on her property. She is so completely consumed with herself that her neighbours can't have a garage should there be a confluence of two of the most unlikely events on earth: a) there's a roving perennial thief who's been specifically eyeing her peony bush; b) the people on the main floor unit of the house across the lane are home, at the window, witness this egregious theft and care enough to put a stop to it.

And because the planning department has already approved these variances, they're heading straight to the appeals committee where this nonsense will consume the time of 4 sitting councilors.

For whatever reason, the meritorious complaints never make it to the meetings. Only the crazies show up. It's difficult not to imagine complete fatigue with the process on behalf of the councilors when you're forced to listen to this garbage week in and week out.

Anyway, here's the gold....

http://clkapps.winnipeg.ca/dmis/View...onId=&InitUrl=

I read that earlier today... Love it. As if 6" is going to make a difference... I didn't realize she didn't want them to build a garage at all though, as if she can appeal something that he can legally build within the zoning bylaw.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

I read that earlier today... Love it. As if 6" is going to make a difference... I didn't realize she didn't want them to build a garage at all though, as if she can appeal something that he can legally build within the zoning bylaw.

Her ridiculous and completely unfounded argument is that anything that obstructs the site lines of anything has been specifically precluded from consideration within the new plan. Notwithstanding that this neighbourhood is composed of nearly exclusively 25' lots and populated to a great extent by 2 and 2.5 storey houses rendering the unobstructed view of anything other than your most immediate neighbours a completely moot point, she's convinced that the plan was written in a way that placed her property rights above everybody else's where convenient and at her discretion.

And all they're going to tell her is that they're going to build it anyway and deny the appeal, but there really needs to be something in place that takes common nonsense like this and dismisses it out of hand instead of diverting thousands of dollars in resources towards it.