Is your city split more along north-south or east-west lines?

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by ue

That's crazy. I know there's emphasis on how much Shanghai has grown since the '80s, but even in 1990, it had over 10 million people.

...You do realize that the first roads weren't built across the Hudson until the 20s and 30s, yes?

The Huangpu is not a trivial engineering challenge.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i've heard that before as well, and i lived up in the twin cities for several years back in college, but i honestly don't know what it means.

minneapolis and st. paul are FAR more similar to each other than they are to any other amercian cities, east or west, hence the "twin cities" nickname.

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i've never heard that, but i can imagine i guess. i have heard that for st. louis and kansas city.

Originally Posted by Centropolis

the differences between st. paul and minneapolis are certainly there, but i don't read them as east vs west. it was admittedly harder to find a really contrasting street scene because i am far less familiar with the twin cities.

however, the way i read minneapolis vs st. paul is prairie/rail upper midwestern vs an upper midwestern version of a river city. i once took a touristy bus tour of the twin cities (dont laugh) and they really hemmed that point home, in fact much of the earliest irish immigration into st. paul came up river through st. louis.

To me, St. Paul definitely has a more 'easterny' city vibe... definitely tougher and grittier and rustbelt-ish and much more of a port city. You can notice historical predominance of the Catholic Church... which is apparent in more eastern cities. St. Paul could fit into upstate/western NY state quite easily. Minneapolis definitely gives me a much more midwesterny vibe for whatever reason... it's flatter, more related to farming, more Protestant, cleaner, nicer, seems newer, etc.


Never been to Kansas City, but St. Louis definitely feels midwestern/southern to me. While eastern US influences certainly abound, the terrain, city layout, and surrounding region are solidly in the agricultural midwest broad river valley camp. A number of people in St. Louis mentioned to me how it was similar to Pittsburgh... and I was like, not even close... other than a lot of red brick. I actually get some relatively strong Dallas vibes, some Dayton/SW Ohio vibes, some Memphis vibes, but definitely not Pittsburgh.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

To me, St. Paul definitely has a more 'easterny' city vibe... definitely tougher and grittier and rustbelt-ish and much more of a port city. You can notice historical predominance of the Catholic Church... which is apparent in more eastern cities. St. Paul could fit into upstate/western NY state quite easily. Minneapolis definitely gives me a much more midwesterny vibe for whatever reason... it's flatter, more related to farming, more Protestant, cleaner, nicer, seems newer, etc.

well, i lived up there for several years (in st. paul), and other than the catholic st. paul/protestant minneapolis generalization, i didn't really pick up on any of the other things you mentioned. both seem firmly rooted in the midwest from my native midwesterner perspective.

also, as a cathnostic born and raised in the nation's most catholic major metro area (chicago), the whole catholic = eastern/protestant = midwestern thing does not resonate with me in the slightest.

as i said before, from my first hand experiences of living there, minneapolis and st. paul seem far more similar to each other than to any other US cities that i've been to. this doesn't mean that they are exact 100% identical carbon copies of each other, but there is a reason why they're known far and wide as the "twin cities".

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

well, i lived up there for several years (in st. paul), and other than the catholic st. paul/protestant minneapolis generalization, i didn't really pick up on any of the other things you mentioned. both seem firmly rooted in the midwest from my native midwesterner perspective.

also, as a cathnostic born and raised in the nation's most catholic major metro area (chicago), the whole catholic = eastern/protestant = midwestern thing does not resonate with me in the slightest.

as i said before, from my first hand experiences of living there, minneapolis and st. paul seem far more similar to each other than they to any other US cities that i've been to. this doesn't mean that they are exact 100% identical carbon copies of each other, but there is a reason why they're known far and wide as the "twin cities".

I don't doubt that they are both firmly rooted in the midwest, just that from my native northeasterner persepctive, there were just some aspects of St. Paul that struck me as more familiar than aspects of Minneapolis did.

It may not resonate with you in the slightest (even though you just said "and other than the catholic st. paul/protestant minneapolis generalization, i didn't really pick up on any of the other things you mentioned"), but the midwest is much more associated with Protestantism (as a generalization) than the eastern US is. Though I certainly never said or think that either region "equals" a particular religion. It is a fact that the midwest... and upper midwest in particular, like the Mpls-St. Paul area we're talking about... is much more Baptist, Methodist, Christian, and definitely Lutheran in the case of the upper midwest, than the eastern US is. For Minneapolis and St. Paul, St. Paul seemed to me to have a certain "Catholic city" vibe (which to me is more associated with northeastern US cities, and probably like Chicago does) more than Minneapolis did... for reasons other than just it's name being Saint Paul.

I have cousins who live in Minneapolis... they told me the Twin Cities thing historically has nothing to do Mpls and St. Paul. St. Paul wasn't one of the Twin Cities... it was Minneapolis and somewhere else across the river. And that the moniker now that includes St. Paul isn't because the cities are similar... just that they're the 2 major cities in the same area.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

To me, St. Paul definitely has a more 'easterny' city vibe... definitely tougher and grittier and rustbelt-ish and much more of a port city. You can notice historical predominance of the Catholic Church... which is apparent in more eastern cities. St. Paul could fit into upstate/western NY state quite easily. Minneapolis definitely gives me a much more midwesterny vibe for whatever reason... it's flatter, more related to farming, more Protestant, cleaner, nicer, seems newer, etc.


Never been to Kansas City, but St. Louis definitely feels midwestern/southern to me. While eastern US influences certainly abound, the terrain, city layout, and surrounding region are solidly in the agricultural midwest broad river valley camp. A number of people in St. Louis mentioned to me how it was similar to Pittsburgh... and I was like, not even close... other than a lot of red brick. I actually get some relatively strong Dallas vibes, some Dayton/SW Ohio vibes, some Memphis vibes, but definitely not Pittsburgh.

st. louis to me feels like a *very* southern mid-atlantic influenced midwestern river city. when i travel to baltimore, i'm always struck by how very familiar it feels. when DC was more regional, and st. louis more centralized and intact, i imagine they had some very, very strong similarities.

i get the blues/mississippi river/bbq memphis vibes but the dallas vibes are a little confusing, although you go far enough into the sw ozarks (or like springfield, mo) and you start picking up texas vibes. there are some ozark transplants in st. louis (similar to appalachian transplants to cincinnati or i presume pittsburgh) so that's where you may get that.

if you have ever spent any time in kansas city, the distinctions come out...there are far, far more "dallas" vibes out there, especially if you are naturally "calibrated" east.

[Centropolis]

the ozarks, south, and plains are mos def lapping at st. louis's door, and due to extreme suburbanization the lines have blurred out there. I-70 = the plains, I-44 = ozarks (which are right there), and I-55 = the south. some of the suburbs have wound their way into the ozarks and that's certainly having an influence.

conversely, the central corridor, and the area around forest park/washington university, etc feel much like similar areas of pittsburgh, if not exactly the same way physically/geographically. grand 19th century institutions and architecture built by the fruit of peak american industrialism, etc. orthodox jewish neighborhoods and lots of pre-war secondary nodes.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i get the blues/mississippi river/bbq memphis vibes but the dallas vibes are a little confusing, although you go far enough into the sw ozarks (or like springfield, mo) and you start picking up texas vibes. there are some ozark transplants in st. louis (similar to appalachian transplants to cincinnati or i presume pittsburgh) so that's where you may get that.

Unless you count a slow trickle of people moving from rural western Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh didn't get any Appalachian transplant community worth speaking of for basically the same reason we had a small Great Migration. The regional economy cooled down a lot starting in the 1920s, right when immigration quotas were put into place. Thus local population growth pretty much satisfied labor demand, without a need for a new influx of workers. Much of it was because Pittsburgh didn't develop an auto industry in the mid 20th century like much of the rest of the Rust Belt.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

st. louis to me feels like a *very* southern mid-atlantic influenced midwestern river city. when i travel to baltimore, i'm always struck by how very familiar it feels. when DC was more regional, and st. louis more centralized and intact, i imagine they had some very, very strong similarities.

i get the blues/mississippi river/bbq memphis vibes but the dallas vibes are a little confusing, although you go far enough into the sw ozarks (or like springfield, mo) and you start picking up texas vibes. there are some ozark transplants in st. louis (similar to appalachian transplants to cincinnati or i presume pittsburgh) so that's where you may get that.

if you have ever spent any time in kansas city, the distinctions come out...there are far, far more "dallas" vibes out there, especially if you are naturally "calibrated" east.

Yeah, I can definitely understand a Baltimore/DC area thing. Good call.

I think the Dallas vibes are more the gently rolling terrain with the multiple "downtown" nodes (though St. Louis' being much older and cooler), and some similarities of some of the neighborhoods... not the older rowhouse and 19th century parts of St. Louis, but more the 1910s-1940s neighborhoods reminded me of the older Dallas neighborhoods. St. Louis, given its location and history, seems to me to be an interesting mix of a number of different (often distant) regions.

On the Pittsburgh - Appalachian transplants thing... probably not too many historically... and the fact that Pittsburgh is Appalachia, so I don't know if they could really be considered "transplants" anyway. But Pittsburgh didn't really get the southern/western Appalachian transplants who went to places like Detroit, Chicago, Toledo, Cincy, Columbus

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

the ozarks, south, and plains are mos def lapping at st. louis's door, and due to extreme suburbanization the lines have blurred out there. I-70 = the plains, I-44 = ozarks (which are right there), and I-55 = the south. some of the suburbs have wound their way into the ozarks and that's certainly having an influence.

conversely, the central corridor, and the area around forest park/washington university, etc feel much like similar areas of pittsburgh, if not exactly the same way physically/geographically. grand 19th century institutions and architecture built by the fruit of peak american industrialism, etc. orthodox jewish neighborhoods and lots of pre-war secondary nodes.

I see what you're saying, but I didn't get that at all as far as Pittsburgh is concerned. I think it's just because Pittsburgh is too hilly to have any extensive grand elegance like I noticed in St. Louis in the areas you mention. The University Circle/Cleveland Heights/University Heights areas of Cleveland though, yes.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I see what you're saying, but I didn't get that at all as far as Pittsburgh is concerned. I think it's just because Pittsburgh is too hilly to have any extensive grand elegance like I noticed in St. Louis in the areas you mention. The University Circle/Cleveland Heights/University Heights areas of Cleveland though, yes.

i was definitely thinking of that part of cleveland probably more than pittsburgh, the eds and meds fueled nodes of pittsburgh came to mind more generally.

st. louis has multiple personalities, not unlike chicago with the northside/southside split. even had two major league baseball teams, one of which became the baltimore orioles. there is the river city, which is the heavy red brick low-in-the-valley place with ties to the river, and the higher elevation second "city" around forest park and that spills west into the pre-war areas of the county which was the fruit of the low slung river city industry, more rail oriented, big apartment buildings, big park, big houses, etc. which is sort of a great lakes-y thing.

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Yeah, I can definitely understand a Baltimore/DC area thing. Good call.

I think the Dallas vibes are more the gently rolling terrain with the multiple "downtown" nodes (though St. Louis' being much older and cooler), and some similarities of some of the neighborhoods... not the older rowhouse and 19th century parts of St. Louis, but more the 1910s-1940s neighborhoods reminded me of the older Dallas neighborhoods. St. Louis, given its location and history, seems to me to be an interesting mix of a number of different (often distant) regions.

st. louis definitely has pulled in vibes from several distant regions. it is true that when chicago collapsed the northern and western st. louis economic hinterlands on st. louis, all st. louis had left (banking, rail) was basically texas. katy, frisco, MOPAC, rail lines, adolphus hotel in downtown dallas, etc. some parts of south st. louis in the summer along the river have a really subtropical new orleans-y/low mississippi valley feel.

part of the city has also always fought off that influence, i imagine the central corridor (now), primarily. both figuratively and quite literally during the civil war. the city was home to TS Eliot, Tennessee Williams, and William S Burroughs, all quite different worldviews figuratively looking in different directions...say, east, south, west...

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

st. louis has multiple personalities, not unlike chicago with the northside/southside split. even had two major league baseball teams, one of which became the baltimore orioles. there is the river city, which is the heavy red brick low-in-the-valley place with ties to the river, and the higher elevation second "city" around forest park and that spills west into the pre-war areas of the county which was the fruit of the low slung river city industry, more rail oriented, big apartment buildings, big park, big houses, etc.

Pittsburgh is basically the same. The oldest surviving residential neighborhoods are almost all in flatlands near the rivers, and could mostly be dropped into Philadelphia without anyone batting an eyelash. But the East End developed as a second major node around 1900, and has a very different feel - more detached housing, more streetcar suburban, actual apartment blocks, etc.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Pittsburgh is basically the same. The oldest surviving residential neighborhoods are almost all in flatlands near the rivers, and could mostly be dropped into Philadelphia without anyone batting an eyelash. But the East End developed as a second major node around 1900, and has a very different feel - more detached housing, more streetcar suburban, actual apartment blocks, etc.

i think this is a universal pattern of first-wave inland us cities. there's definitely a cutoff where you have midwestern cities that are basically all of the second type.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

also, as a cathnostic born and raised in the nation's most catholic major metro area (chicago), the whole catholic = eastern/protestant = midwestern thing does not resonate with me in the slightest.

The Great Lakes cities are generally very Catholic, yes.

I don't know if Chicago is the nation's "most Catholic" metro? New York and L.A. have more sheer numbers, and Boston likely has a higher Catholic percentage.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

The Great Lakes cities are generally very Catholic, yes.

I don't know if Chicago is the nation's "most Catholic" metro? New York and L.A. have more sheer numbers, and Boston likely has a higher Catholic percentage.

of america's largest metro areas, chicagoland is the most catholic, by percentage. metro NYC and metro LA are a very close 2nd and 3rd, by percentage.

it's no shock that the 3 biggest metros are the 3 most catholic; catholics historically bred like rabbits (no birth control).

source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ious-profiles/

[Docere]

Surprised to see Boston down to 29%. I guess it's the secularization trend in New England at work (and the Catholic Church scandals).

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

of america's largest metro areas, chicagoland is the most catholic, by percentage. metro NYC and metro LA are a very close 2nd and 3rd, by percentage.

it's no shock that the 3 biggest metros are the 3 most catholic; catholics historically bred like rabbits (no birth control).

source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ious-profiles/

US cities throughout the country are bastions of Catholicism owing to the influx of historical immigrant groups that populated them, economics, and resulting culture and politics.

Family size because of no birth control was/is a thing, but those cities (and cities in general) have high Catholic numbers because that where the Irish, Polish, Italian, and Hispanic immigrants have gone to historically.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

US cities throughout the country are bastions of Catholicism.

not all major US cities are bastions of catholicism.

here are the 17 largest US metro areas ranked by % catholic, from the Pew study:

Chicago - 34%
NYC - 33%
LA - 32%
san diego - 32%
boston - 29%
miami - 27%
philadelphia - 26%
san francisco - 25%
riverside - 22%

US Average - 21%
mineapolis - 21%
phoenix - 21%

washington - 19%
houston - 19%
detroit - 16%
seattle - 15%
dallas - 15%
atlanta - 11%


9 are above the national average, 2 are right on the national average, and 6 are below the national average.

[Docere]

The Northeast and the industrial cities of the Great Lakes are the most "white ethnic." The Catholic population of the Southwest is mostly from the large Mexican American population.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

Surprised to see Boston down to 29%. I guess it's the secularization trend in New England at work (and the Catholic Church scandals).

Also, Boston has fewer Hispanics, esp. fewer Mexicans, who are almost entirely Catholic, unlike more Protestant or Fundamentalist-leaning Carribean Hispanics common in the Northeast.

Chicago has a huge Mexican population. Historically it was the #2 Mexican city for immigration.

New England is also slightly less religious than other parts of the U.S., excepting the Pacific NW, and has a high % of mainline Protestants for a northern city (traditional Northeast Corridor WASPs).

[Docere]

Interesting to see the "big 3" coming in at the same percentage more or less, though obviously a rather different composition, with New York's being largely Italian, L.A. overwhelmingly Mexican and Chicago heavily Mexican and Polish.

L.A. is of course relatively recent in terms of such a high ranking. Half a century ago it was filled with Midwestern Protestants.