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  #2121  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2012, 2:11 AM
CCs77 CCs77 is offline
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Well, I don't know what it is, but I don't think it is just labor cost, since I guess labor costs are not cheaper in Europe.
Anyway the people that get rich are not precisely the workers.
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  #2122  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2012, 3:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
Can someone please explain to me, and I am obviously completely in the dark about this, what is it that is inflating the cost of transit construction in the US to the unimaginable levels that it has reached?

I just learned that LA citizens pay on average $25/year for measure R and while that is great and I wish it was even higher (hopefully measure J will pass), that is 10 million people in LA county times $25 = 250 million dollars a year that can barely pay for 2 light rail lines per decade. The California high speed rail project will cost $50 billion!! FIFTY! The second avenue subway line in NYC will cost 5 billion, what is happening here? In Japan and Europe they are paying at least 3 times less, if not more. I read that upgrading the Northeast corridor to high-speed rail will cost more than Japan's MAGLEV line connecting Tokyo and Osaka.

Do other countries have subsidized transit construction? Is the problem unions? What's happening? I can't imagine if the NYC subway system was to be built from scratch today it would probably cost as much as the city's annual GDP. So the issue seems to be not lack of money but exorbitant cost.
Labor is part of the equation: so is the fact that we have to import the technical know-how for building these lines, which increases capital costs significantly. Passenger rail is an entire industry in a country like Japan. That's not the case here, and never really was because even when passenger trains went everywhere, most of the railroad companies still prioritized freight.
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  #2123  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2012, 6:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
Can someone please explain to me, and I am obviously completely in the dark about this, what is it that is inflating the cost of transit construction in the US to the unimaginable levels that it has reached?

I just learned that LA citizens pay on average $25/year for measure R and while that is great and I wish it was even higher (hopefully measure J will pass), that is 10 million people in LA county times $25 = 250 million dollars a year that can barely pay for 2 light rail lines per decade. The California high speed rail project will cost $50 billion!! FIFTY! The second avenue subway line in NYC will cost 5 billion, what is happening here? In Japan and Europe they are paying at least 3 times less, if not more. I read that upgrading the Northeast corridor to high-speed rail will cost more than Japan's MAGLEV line connecting Tokyo and Osaka.

Do other countries have subsidized transit construction? Is the problem unions? What's happening? I can't imagine if the NYC subway system was to be built from scratch today it would probably cost as much as the city's annual GDP. So the issue seems to be not lack of money but exorbitant cost.

Here's an article that could give some lights about that issue.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...sit-costs.html

Quote:
The French rail operator SNCF told the California High- Speed Rail Authority that it could cut $30 billion off the project’s $68 billion estimated price tag. San Francisco can barely build underground light rail for the price that Tokyo pays for high-capacity subways. Los Angeles’s planned subway to the sea will be a bit cheaper, but is still very expensive considering the area’s lack of density.

The budgets for other types of urban public-works projects can be just as shocking. Who can forget Boston’s Big Dig, the $24 billion highway boondoggle? But mass-transit networks stand to lose most from out-of-control infrastructure costs.

A huge part of the problem is that agencies can’t keep their private contractors in check. Starved of funds and expertise for in-house planning, officials contract out the project management and early design concepts to private companies that have little incentive to keep costs down and quality up. And even when they know better, agencies are often forced by legislation, courts and politicians to make decisions that they know aren’t in the public interest.
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  #2124  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2012, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Swede View Post
I haven't read the whole thread, but what kind of tax-increases are expected from the DT connector? And what are the planned changes in service when it is done?
No new tax increases are required for the DT Connector -- the Measure R sales tax increase that was approved by L.A. County voters in 2008 included some funding for the DT Connector.

When the DT Connector is completed, one will be able to travel from the Foothill extension of the Gold Line to Long Beach and from the East L.A. extension of the Gold Line to Culver City (and eventually Santa Monica) without changing trains. Currently one must change trains twice for each of those trips, with one of those train changes, at Union Station downtown, requiring quite a long walk between trains. So the DT Connector will tie some of the loose ends together and make train travel in the L.A. area much faster and easier.
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  #2125  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2012, 4:10 PM
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doh! I meant pax, not tax. I knew the project has no taxes tied directly to it (tho taxes are needed to fun it, of course). My question was about passenger-numbers. I.e. are there any estimates of the future passenger-numbers when the connector is in service (changes directly related to said connector, not other new lines, that is).

Also, welcome to the forum!
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  #2126  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2012, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede View Post
doh! I meant pax, not tax. I knew the project has no taxes tied directly to it (tho taxes are needed to fun it, of course). My question was about passenger-numbers. I.e. are there any estimates of the future passenger-numbers when the connector is in service (changes directly related to said connector, not other new lines, that is).

Also, welcome to the forum!
Sorry about that -- I thought 'pax' was a typo for 'tax'. At the link below on the Metro Web site (under 'Background'), they estimate that about 90,000 riders will use the connector daily, and about 17,000 of those will be new transit riders.

http://www.metro.net/projects/connector/
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  #2127  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2012, 10:04 PM
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Speaking of theRegional Connector, here are some renders (made with sketchup apparently)

Surprisingly nobody has posted them yet, since they are from august.
In the article you can find some other images.

http://la.curbed.com/archives/2012/0...l_stations.php





2nd and Hope Station





2nd/Broadway Station








1st and Central Ave Station



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  #2128  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2012, 10:26 PM
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Tomorrow's the big day! Begging and pleading that Measure J gets passed...
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  #2129  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2012, 12:34 AM
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Cool. Seems like they are building headhouses for each station to avoid having to dig out a mezzanine. I'm guessing this saves some serious change.
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  #2130  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2012, 3:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomW View Post
Sorry about that -- I thought 'pax' was a typo for 'tax'. At the link below on the Metro Web site (under 'Background'), they estimate that about 90,000 riders will use the connector daily, and about 17,000 of those will be new transit riders.

http://www.metro.net/projects/connector/
Nemas problemas

17k new daily transit users is great. 90k per workday would equal millions per year, wouldn't it? Instant success, in other words.
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  #2131  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2012, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Cool. Seems like they are building headhouses for each station to avoid having to dig out a mezzanine. I'm guessing this saves some serious change.
According to the article, two out of the three stations still will have mezzanines, even if the vending machines will be street level. The one that wouldn't have mezzanine being First/Central at Little Tokio.

Quote:
Unlike other Metro subway stations, the RC stops--at Second/Hope, Second/Broadway, and First/Central--will have ticketing, maps, and information in semi-enclosed, surface-level plazas, allowing less clutter underground.
Quote:
The Tokio Tanaka-designed station for First/Central will replace the Little Tokyo Gold Line stop, currently on surface level. This new stop will only be 40 feet underground, so unlike the Second Street stations, it won't have a mezzanine with amenities, allowing commuters to go directly from the street to the train platform.
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  #2132  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2012, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Westsidelife View Post
Tomorrow's the big day! Begging and pleading that Measure J gets passed...
I'm right there with you, man.

As to the Regional Connector stations, I always found it odd that they opted to ax the 5th/Flower station and keep the 2nd/Broadway station. Logically, it would make more sense to have a station in the heart of the Financial District than one which duplicates the service area of the Red/Purple Line's Civic Center station.

Then again, it's probably easier and cheaper to build at 2nd/Broadway than to dig a station box in between the Bonaventure Hotel and Citigroup Center.
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  #2133  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2012, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by blackcat23 View Post
I'm right there with you, man.

As to the Regional Connector stations, I always found it odd that they opted to ax the 5th/Flower station and keep the 2nd/Broadway station. Logically, it would make more sense to have a station in the heart of the Financial District than one which duplicates the service area of the Red/Purple Line's Civic Center station.

Then again, it's probably easier and cheaper to build at 2nd/Broadway than to dig a station box in between the Bonaventure Hotel and Citigroup Center.
Don't think of 2nd/Broadway as a Civic Center station, even though, you've now opened up accessility to Civic Center for people arriving from Pasadena, Long Beach, Culver City, East LA and Santa Monica, with no more transfer needed to the Red/Purple Lines.

Think of the 2nd/Broadway station something for the Old Bank District/Historic Core/Broadway District. This station is critical. The 5th/Flower was a sad loss, however, if Metro intends to open a new portal for 7th Street/Metro station at 6th/Flower, then you're only 2 blocks away from 5th/Flower. The 2nd/Broadway will bring more new destinations than 5th/Flower.
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  #2134  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2012, 12:16 AM
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Follow Measure J's votes through the evening:

http://rrccmain.co.la.ca.us/0012_Cou...sure_Frame.htm
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  #2135  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2012, 2:56 AM
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Feeling optimistic about J
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  #2136  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2012, 4:17 AM
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Update:

63.93% Yes
36.07% No
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  #2137  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2012, 4:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Westsidelife View Post
Update:

63.93% Yes
36.07% No
Where are you getting these numbers from? I clicked on the link and it doesn't tell you the percentages
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  #2138  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2012, 4:30 AM
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Where are you getting these numbers from? I clicked on the link and it doesn't tell you the percentages
Go to the link and then click on J.
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  #2139  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2012, 4:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Westsidelife View Post
Go to the link and then click on J.
I did and it's not working for me
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  #2140  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2012, 4:59 AM
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OK got it now, looks like it's not going to pass
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