Canadian Alternate Histories

[balletomane]

Originally Posted by Docere

Would that have made the Lakehead the "gateway to the west"?

Yes, perhaps, had it been transferred to Manitoba. In 1873 (I think?) Manitoba submitted a request to the federal government to have the land lying just east of Thunder Bay and north of it to be transferred to Manitoba. However, the change in the federal government shelved the request.
The whole issue dated back to the Quebec Act of 1774 as it was unclear where Quebec's western boundaries lay. Based on the Quebec Act, Ontario claimed it's western border lay north of the Mississippi headwaters, while Manitoba claimed it lay north of the confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio.
When the Keewatin District was formed in 1876, it was meant essentially to be "reserve territory" for Manitoba's future territorial expansion. But in 1878, at the end of his tenure in office, Mackenzie claimed that Ontario's border should be extended to it's present location. But with MacDonald back in office he rejected the pro-Ontario claim and in 1881 the Manitoba Boundary Extensions act was passed.
This act formed the present-day box shape of Southern Manitoba, but the act never determined the exact location of Manitoba's eastern boundary, only claiming that it was the western boundary of Ontario.
In the maps I posted in my previous post, the boundary of Manitoba is shown just east of Thunder Bay. This technically would be the claim sympathetic to Manitoba's interests as Ontario had already incorporated some townships in the area by the early-1870's and surveyed the town plans for Fort William a decade earlier than that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terr...1876-10-07.png
When Manitoba received jurisdiction over this part of northwestern Ontario it never attempted to lay claim to Thunder Bay as Ontario's western boundary as shown above had been determined in 1874. From 1881 to 1884, the area around Kenora was part of Manitoba, Rat Portage was incorporated in 1882 by Manitoba and the disputed territory was incorporated as Varennes County. The same area was also one of Manitoba's electoral districts in the 1883 election. But in 1884 the Privy Council sided with the pro-Ontario decision made by Mackenzie's board in 1878.

[MolsonExport]

What if Giant Tiger had started in the 1950s and became the world's largest retailer?
Would it be as hated as Walmart?

[balletomane]

Along with Manitoba's could have been boundaries that extended to Thunder Bay, both Alberta and Saskatchewan were meant to have different boundaries as well. The provisional districts that existed in the Northwest Territories from 1882 to 1905, Assiniboia, Saskatchewan, Alberts and Athabasca were meant to eventually be incorporated as four different provinces. I'm not sure if the boundaries were to stay the same as they had been, but they were meant to be the foundation for four future provinces.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ies_(1900).jpg
Athabasca District 620,000 sq km (pop. 450,000)
Saskatchewan District 280,000 as km (pop. 650,000)
Alberta District 257,000 sq km (pop. 3,450,000)
Assiniboia District 231,000 sq km (pop. 700,000)

[VANRIDERFAN]

So I just drove from Ottawa to Winnipeg (final destination: Regina) via the highway north of Lake Superior. While the rugged terrain and the vistas of the Lake are spectacular, this region is not conducive to easy transportation and establishment of population centres. So this got me thinking of two bad decisions out of the British House of Commons.

The first was after the AWR and the Treaty of Paris where the British negotiators gave the "Old North West" to the rebels with the thought that the new country was so unstable that they would fall back into the empire in due course.


Also for some strange reason northern Maine was also given to the young republic.



It is said that while the War of 1812 was a draw, the Americans were triumphant at the peace table. This was due to British indifference, American good luck (the victory at New Orleans, and the Federalist threat to take New England out of the Union right at the time of the news of Jackson's victory) and that the British were pre-occupied with settling post Napoleonic France.
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....reaty-of-ghent

Let us say the British were a little more hard nosed and with the fact that the British had control of Mackinac Island, BNA (Canada) development could be very different.


Mackinac Island was a strategic island that controlled the fur trade of the "Old Northwest in the years between the ARW and the War of 1812. Even after the Peace Treaty was signed the British kept control of the island until the Governor of BNA forced the British troops there to leave.

With the Upper Peninsula of Michigan under Canadian control the western border with the US could arguably be the 45.75 Parallel (starting at the mouth of the Ford River south of Escanaba Michigan) and that area would include the territory north of the mouth of Columbia river. This area would include Washington, Idaho pan-handle, most of Montana, all of North Dakota, half of Minnesota, Northern Wisconsin and of course the UP of Michigan.

How would Canada develop if we didn't have to deal with the harshness of the terrain north of Superior? Would this country be stronger with an easier and more tangible (transportation and population wise) connection between western and central Canada?

[MonctonRad]

The Brits did not do any favours for (future) Canada, that's for sure.

We also got screwed over on the Alaska panhandle dispute.

If the ME/NB border had been more reasonably settled, there is no question that Atlantic Canada would be far better connected to central Canada, with a freeway between Fredericton and Sherbrooke (and on to Montreal), shaving at least 3-4 hours off of our travel times (seven hours from Moncton to Montreal rather than 10 hours now).

[Dengler Avenue]

I disagree on both counts.
Northern Maine has unfavourable terrain, and Upper Peninsula seems to have the same issue too (okay, slightly better than north superior shore, but not much).
Notably, even on the U.S. side of Lake Superior, the only sizeable city is Duluth plus surrounding area, outside of which no other big cities exist, either. To me, it implies that Upper Peninsula isn’t all that hospitable either. (I just don’t remember off my head how the Superior Geological Province goes, so I can’t say much.)
As for north superior shore, my profile picture pretty much speaks my bias for me. Maybe give me 10 years to figure something out on paper.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

So I just drove from Ottawa to Winnipeg (final destination: Regina) via the highway north of Lake Superior. While the rugged terrain and the vistas of the Lake are spectacular, this region is not conducive to easy transportation and establishment of population centres. So this got me thinking of two bad decisions out of the British House of Commons.

The first was after the AWR and the Treaty of Paris where the British negotiators gave the "Old North West" to the rebels with the thought that the new country was so unstable that they would fall back into the empire in due course.


Also for some strange reason northern Maine was also given to the young republic.



It is said that while the War of 1812 was a draw, the Americans were triumphant at the peace table. This was due to British indifference, American good luck (the victory at New Orleans, and the Federalist threat to take New England out of the Union right at the time of the news of Jackson's victory) and that the British were pre-occupied with settling post Napoleonic France.
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....reaty-of-ghent

Let us say the British were a little more hard nosed and with the fact that the British had control of Mackinac Island, BNA (Canada) development could be very different.


Mackinac Island was a strategic island that controlled the fur trade of the "Old Northwest in the years between the ARW and the War of 1812. Even after the Peace Treaty was signed the British kept control of the island until the Governor of BNA forced the British troops there to leave.

With the Upper Peninsula of Michigan under Canadian control the western border with the US could arguably be the 45.75 Parallel (starting at the mouth of the Ford River south of Escanaba Michigan) and that area would include the territory north of the mouth of Columbia river. This area would include Washington, Idaho pan-handle, most of Montana, all of North Dakota, half of Minnesota, Northern Wisconsin and of course the UP of Michigan.

How would Canada develop if we didn't have to deal with the harshness of the terrain north of Superior? Would this country be stronger with an easier and more tangible (transportation and population wise) connection between western and central Canada?

There are a few things here. I'll start with just the UP.
I doubt much would change. The climate isn't that much better than north of Lake Superior. The geology is about the same as well. The question is what happens west of it.

And that is where the NT comes into play. Let's say the NT were to be part of Canada. That would mean the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan Wisconsin and parts of Minnesota are now part of Canada. That is a lot of large cities, some bigger than Toronto, now part of Canada.The resources, now part of Canada. What would it do to north of Lake Superior? I doubt there would be much of anything, including 2 intercontinental railways and the only E-W highway in Canada.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I disagree on both counts.
Northern Maine has unfavourable terrain, and Upper Peninsula seems to have the same issue too (okay, slightly better than north superior shore, but not much).
Notably, even on the U.S. side of Lake Superior, the only sizeable city is Duluth plus surrounding area, outside of which no other big cities exist, either. To me, it implies that Upper Peninsula isn’t all that hospitable either. (I just don’t remember off my head how the Superior Geological Province goes, so I can’t say much.)
As for north superior shore, my profile picture pretty much speaks my bias for me. Maybe give me 10 years to figure something out on paper.

I’ve driven the highway from the Soo to Duluth many times and the terrain there is far more conducive for development than to the north.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

So I just drove from Ottawa to Winnipeg (final destination: Regina) via the highway north of Lake Superior. While the rugged terrain and the vistas of the Lake are spectacular, this region is not conducive to easy transportation and establishment of population centres. So this got me thinking of two bad decisions out of the British House of Commons.


How would Canada develop if we didn't have to deal with the harshness of the terrain north of Superior? Would this country be stronger with an easier and more tangible (transportation and population wise) connection between western and central Canada?

Hard to say, really. I'm not sure farming would have taken hold much better as there's a clay belt in Northern Ontario from Hearst to Cochrane that attempted to become a farm region but flopped in the early 20th century. The winters are cold and harsh.

There would have to be a reason for people to settle (i.e. farming) for a continuous band of population to develop. Otherwise, it's sporadic mining and forestry towns. If it's fertile farmland with good enough weather, it might work. It's the problem with Maine and the Upper Peninsula too - they're not really conducive to large-scale agriculture. Hence, they've very sparse populations and minimal infrastructure.

In an alternate thought process I occasionally have: How would North America's infrastructure and life looked if Canada and the US were one entity? Much of Ontario's industry might have ended up on the other side of the lake. Ottawa would be just a small regional centre. There likely wouldn't be a railway nor highway across the north of the province. The Prairies would likely be similar, as would Atlantic Canada. Would Vancouver be as big a port with Seattle nearby?

[Dengler Avenue]

@wave46 I’d posit that Ottawa would still have been known as Bytown in that case, probably on par with Pembroke population-wise, with that small regional centre being Montreal instead~
Edit: Oops I digressed.
The point about agriculture is a good one. Did the same thing happen to the Sault Sainte Marie - Thessalon Corridor?

[JHikka]

Merged this with a similar thread from a few years ago.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

@wave46 I’d posit that Ottawa would still have been known as Bytown in that case, probably on par with Pembroke population-wise, with that small regional centre being Montreal instead~
Edit: Oops I digressed.

I think that if the alt history of the French Canadian ecumen plays out in any way similarly to how it has in reality, you'd definitely have a substantial city in the St. Lawrence Valley emerging somewhere.

Maybe not Montreal 2021-sized, but definitely a lot more significant than Pembroke or even Kingston.

[MolsonExport]

There are no sizable cities on Lake Huron either, but that doesn't mean that the shorelines are inappropriate for agriculture/development. Topography is only part of the story.

[yaletown_fella]

If Michigan north of highway 69/96 were part of Ontario, I suspect we wouldnt see the same unaffordability crisis in the greater Toronto area.

In place of Grand Rapids [and the area west of it out to lake Michigan] would be a Canadian city larger than Ottawa and it'd serve to absorb a large chunk of Canada's immigration. It'd benefit greatly from its proximity to Chicago and Detroit for trade, commerce, trucking jobs etc. as well as lots of surrounding farmland.

[Rico Rommheim]

Originally Posted by balletomane

Maybe Winnipeg wouldn't have lost these buildings had it not been for the opening of the Panama Canal.




http://archiseek.com/2012/1913-unbui...hall-winnipeg/



http://archiseek.com/2009/1919-hudso...ipeg-manitoba/


http://archiseek.com/2012/1929-propo...ding-winnipeg/


http://winnipegdowntownplaces.blogsp...ail-order.html

What a tragedy.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

@wave46 I’d posit that Ottawa would still have been known as Bytown in that case, probably on par with Pembroke population-wise, with that small regional centre being Montreal instead~
Edit: Oops I digressed.
The point about agriculture is a good one. Did the same thing happen to the Sault Sainte Marie - Thessalon Corridor?

Ottawa would have been considerably larger than Pembroke no matter what. Why? Ottawa was the head of navigation on the Ottawa River and because of the availability of substantial power generation at Chaudiere Falls, it was the obvious location for sawmills, and because the Ottawa River valley and surrounding highlands had some of the best timber anywhere, it at one time had the largest sawmills in the world.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by balletomane

Maybe Winnipeg wouldn't have lost these buildings had it not been for the opening of the Panama Canal.



http://winnipegdowntownplaces.blogsp...ail-order.html

damn, Winnipeg was really going for the whole "Little Chicago" or "Chicago of the North" vibe.
This is like a Canadian version of Chicago's Merchandise Mart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchandise_Mart

[swimmer_spe]

Most of the ports on the St Lawrence Seaway are American cities as a way to save money from using rail. It is possible that the Seaway might look different than today. There may not have been much of a push for the Soo Locks. Welland Canal likely would still exist.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Most of the ports on the St Lawrence Seaway are American cities as a way to save money from using rail. It is possible that the Seaway might look different than today. There may not have been much of a push for the Soo Locks. Welland Canal likely would still exist.

Welland Canal has to exist. You can't go over Niagara Falls

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Welland Canal has to exist. You can't go over Niagara Falls

Why don't they call it the Niagara Canal to avoid this confusion, whoever heard of Welland?
Welland:
https://goo.gl/maps/U68sUumqTaKpYc3S9