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  #121  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2016, 10:48 PM
emathias emathias is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Intelligence is something you either have or don't. It's not a skill. You can't teach someone to be smart. You can teach them skills and expand their knowledge.
I suggest you do some reading on the subject. Yes, there are biological limits to intelligence, however there are also immense influences on how well that inherent intelligence is utilized that are social, cultural and, yes, teachable.

A person with an inherent IQ of 90, who is taught a strong work ethic and how to do research and organize things will often far outperform someone with an inherent IQ of 120 who is lazy and has poor organization skills. What parents teach their children isn't how to be intelligent, but rather how to best utilize what intelligence they have.
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  #122  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 2:28 PM
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
I suggest you do some reading on the subject. Yes, there are biological limits to intelligence, however there are also immense influences on how well that inherent intelligence is utilized that are social, cultural and, yes, teachable.

A person with an inherent IQ of 90, who is taught a strong work ethic and how to do research and organize things will often far outperform someone with an inherent IQ of 120 who is lazy and has poor organization skills. What parents teach their children isn't how to be intelligent, but rather how to best utilize what intelligence they have.
How is this refuting what I stated above? You're basically rephrasing the same point I made. Yes, you can teach someone to go above and beyond with skills and knowledge but within their intellectual capacity. A person with an IQ of 90 is not going to be making any ground breaking discoveries in string theory no matter how successful they are.
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  #123  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2016, 4:28 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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A person with an IQ of 90 is not going to be making any ground breaking discoveries in string theory no matter how successful they are.
Who cares if they don't? That is not the only way to contribute to society.

You get up in the morning, you turn on the lights and flush the toilet. Someone out there has the moderately complex job of maintaining the power lines and the sewer plants. They probably aren't a genius but their training probably required a bit of study and a bit of scientific understanding and math ability.
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  #124  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2016, 5:47 PM
Qubert Qubert is offline
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I believe focusing on race misses the point entirely. In the end, it's about culture and ethics. How do you explain people like Haitian Americans or Nigerian Americans being immensely well educated and successful (heck, Africans are seen as even more of a "Model Minority" than Asians in many parts of the US) if it's all about race.

A culture of absentee parenting, disrespect for authority and the bigotry of low expectations/race-pandering are far more central to this issue than melanin.
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  #125  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2016, 5:58 PM
ChargerCarl ChargerCarl is offline
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Originally Posted by Qubert View Post
I believe focusing on race misses the point entirely. In the end, it's about culture and ethics. How do you explain people like Haitian Americans or Nigerian Americans being immensely well educated and successful (heck, Africans are seen as even more of a "Model Minority" than Asians in many parts of the US) if it's all about race.

A culture of absentee parenting, disrespect for authority and the bigotry of low expectations/race-pandering are far more central to this issue than melanin.
Selection bias.
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  #126  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 9:03 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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So African and Caribbean Londoners earn more than white despite having significantly more single parent households? Or are the trends different in London vs the UK as a whole?
I'm not sure about that point, from the studies I've seen they seem to say that poverty rates are higher among ethnic minority households.
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  #127  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2016, 3:19 PM
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They probably didn't deal in mass slavery either which would be a big factor in how crime plays in society today.
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  #128  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2016, 4:07 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Slavery has been fairly common through the ages in China, right up to the 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_China
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  #129  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2017, 2:41 PM
figaro figaro is offline
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It is not about Chinese cities have low crime rate, it is more about Chinese people (and probably East Asians in general) commit low crimes wherever go live, and under any kind of social/economic conditions.

One can say some groups of people show high crime because they are discriminated or marginalized, whatever. Did the Chinese not face rampant discrimination when they first settled in the US (and Canada)? Did the white people or the government treat them fairly with no racism? Yet did they crime high violent crimes? No.

It is not about poverty either, as earlier Chinese immigrants were at the bottom of the social ladder too. Again, very low crime.

The Chinese are practically everywhere in the world, and with very different financial status (from very poor labourers to small business owners to millionaires), yet nowhere did you see the Chinese causing much trouble.

One can doubt official statistics, but the fact is the Chinese people are simply non-violent.

I think it has to with their traditional culture: if you are poor, you work hard and save money to make your children better educated and be rich. If you are poorly treated by others, you suck it up and try to be better, instead of killing others out of frustration - because they know by killing others, it solved no problem whatever.
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  #130  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2017, 2:42 PM
figaro figaro is offline
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Slavery has been fairly common through the ages in China, right up to the 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_China
True.

For example, Tibet was a slavery nation before being annexed by PRC.
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  #131  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2017, 8:32 AM
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The homicide rates in Chinese cities are lower compared to US cities, but only if you don't consider all the abortions happening there.
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  #132  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2017, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Slavery has been fairly common through the ages in China, right up to the 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_China
Slavery in the parlance of American discussions on race and the long-term effects of slavery refers to chattel slavery. Slavery proper was a constant of the ancient world and practiced by the overwhelming majority of ancient societies; however, there were practical reasons for becoming a slave in these societies and there were usually ways to get out of slavery. Or to put it more bluntly: Old World slaves were seen as people, albeit people on the lowest class rung.

American-style chattel slavery included massive forced migration over an extended period of time coupled with the closure of any formal path to freedom and ultimately dehuminization of slaves (hence the term "chattel"). It is the latter that has most strongly informed subsequent racial dynamics.

Also of note: the South was actually something of a backwater in the transatlantic slave trade. The vast majority of slaves wound up in the Caribbean and in Brazil; Rio de Janeiro alone held as many slaves as the entire American South combined!
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  #133  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2017, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
The homicide rates in Chinese cities are lower compared to US cities, but only if you don't consider all the abortions happening there.
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  #134  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2017, 5:19 PM
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They probably didn't deal in mass slavery either which would be a big factor in how crime plays in society today.
This is a massive cop out. I'm not dismissing the idea that a historical legacy of slavery (and much more recent discrimination and racism) affects the opportunities available to blacks in the US, but it doesn't justify higher crime rates (beyond the correlation with income levels).
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  #135  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2017, 5:43 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Originally Posted by figaro View Post
It is not about Chinese cities have low crime rate, it is more about Chinese people (and probably East Asians in general) commit low crimes wherever go live, and under any kind of social/economic conditions.

One can say some groups of people show high crime because they are discriminated or marginalized, whatever. Did the Chinese not face rampant discrimination when they first settled in the US (and Canada)? Did the white people or the government treat them fairly with no racism? Yet did they crime high violent crimes? No.

It is not about poverty either, as earlier Chinese immigrants were at the bottom of the social ladder too. Again, very low crime.

The Chinese are practically everywhere in the world, and with very different financial status (from very poor labourers to small business owners to millionaires), yet nowhere did you see the Chinese causing much trouble.

One can doubt official statistics, but the fact is the Chinese people are simply non-violent.

I think it has to with their traditional culture: if you are poor, you work hard and save money to make your children better educated and be rich. If you are poorly treated by others, you suck it up and try to be better, instead of killing others out of frustration - because they know by killing others, it solved no problem whatever.
I don't think that is a historical constant, it may be true at the moment but Chinese people were pretty violent during the Taipeng Rebellion or more recently the Civil War or Cultural Revolution. These things change depending on societal circumstances.
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  #136  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2017, 6:43 PM
figaro figaro is offline
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
I don't think that is a historical constant, it may be true at the moment but Chinese people were pretty violent during the Taipeng Rebellion or more recently the Civil War or Cultural Revolution. These things change depending on societal circumstances.
those are wars or revolutions, not crimes we talk about. The French revolution is particularly bloody but that doesn't mean the French are more violent than other nations.
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  #137  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 9:44 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Wars annd revolutions are often the ultimate example of violent behaviour. I'm not saying French or Chinese are inherently more violent than others, just that they are not neccesarily less violent either, it depends on the circumstances and the time we are talking about.
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  #138  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 12:14 PM
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Hear, hear.

Every nation has its examples in history of being peaceable aswell as crime-ridden in their societies. China would actually be an outstanding example, at times democratic, gender equal, LGBTQ open, and classless, aswell; as being fascistic, hierarchical, warfarous, crime-ridden, dangerous and grotesquely unequal.

Qing Dynasty prisoners, whose fate relied on hand-outs from passersby:



Class: the Manchu minority ruled as the elite, alongside Mongols, Tatars and Tibetans, over the Han Chinese merchant classes and vast legions of the impoverished, urban and rural.



Beijing operated its Forbidden City for the rulers, then the Imperial city for the elite minorities, with finally a vast Chinatown-in-China - the Chinese City - south of the world's largest city walls for the Han Chinese masses, who formed the crime ridden poor. It is in effect ghettoisation on a grand scale for the world's largest city. A sure recipe for crime and ultimately implosion:




Just looking at the recent history - the country endured the world's worst civil war in the 19th Century, which wiped out 700 of the classical cities. One side was theocratic, operated an ethnic hierarchy, and ruled over a suppressing Imperialist empire with strong xenophobic tendencies, which at the height of total war was executing 30,000 Hakka people a day in mass genocide, and had just conquested Xinjiang and Tibet back into the fold.

The other side was democratic, distributed land equally, promoted Christianity, and banned foot-binding, polygamy and the male/female/child brothels, whose armies were made up of both men and women, in a classless society. Their aim was to free the Han Chinese people from the elitist system after 300 years of foreign subjugation under the Manchurians.


The ruling, xenophobic Manchus oft portrayed as the 'baddies' by the Chinese also tolerated all religions, cultures and 200 ethnic groups, and their ruler banned the worst practices of torture, corruption and bureaucracy, and launched Learn From the West thinktanks (before she realised the returning ideas of French style democracy threatened her power base).

On the flipside the God-worshipping Taipings, the 'goodies', who had launched their rebellion from the Han Chinese heartlands also operated a strict separation of sexes, was a militarised regime, and went on mass book burning sessions whereby the Yangtze heartland lost all its ancient Buddhist libraries - utterly intolerant of other faiths. It also had its own instances of genocide, including the murder of all the Manchu men in its capital, followed by the burning of all the women outside the walls.

Ultimately 30-60 million people died in the world's second ever worst conflict, and China lost 700 of its classical cities in a world gone mad, haunted by brutality, genocide and famine.




This of course went on to even more recent, living memory of a time when the nation disbanded into mass crimes for for a decade, in which child soldiers travelled the country doing what they wanted, when they wanted - desecrating history (including 300 temples in Tibet, and thousands more in China), and generally operating as a vast gang over society. The Cultural Revolution was called by Mao after he had been voted out (following the world's worst famine, resulting from the Great Leap Forward), in which millions of teenagers marched onto Beijing and took the army. The country effectively handed the reins of power to the children - the Red Guards - who promoted equality and classlessness, but to a religious, idealised zeal, that purged away the Communist Party between 1966 and 1976.

An estimated 400,000 to 1.5 million people were killed (some put it as high as 10 million), with an equal number disabled, and 36 million targeted with violence, brutality and public humiliation. Minorities were also targeted alongside (790,000 were brutalised in Inner Mongolia for example, with 23,000 beaten to death and 120,000 maimed). 100,000 died in a single factional struggle in Guangxi alone, in which the army had to intervene, with instances reported of cannibalism.

This happening in a country that a year before had one of the lowest ever crime rates, and most peaceable societies, that for millennia has been endorsed in harmonic society making (Confucianism).





In short any country/ society/ people/ race can be crime-happy, as well as peaceable. Take a snapshot of Shanghai in the 1920s, with the worst excesses ever of capitalism - drugs, prostitution, racism, organised crime and hideous inequality, where every time the train pulled into Shanghai station an average two women would commit suicide. Take also a snapshot of any of the tranquil, timeless villages and water towns surrounding the city at the same time. Similarly 1990s 'border-town' Shenzhen bathing in its newfound capitalism that mirrored 1920s Shanghai, with tourist guides issuing travel warnings for its bevvies of prostitutes, drug gangs, smugglers and hustlers, in a lawless, unequal society that the Party had little control over (it's now much reformed and one of the richest cities in the country).


Btw, Chinatowns in the 19th Century were notorious centres of lawlessness, opium dens, drugs, thieves and prostitution, which drew up Anti-Chinese Acts and legislation, and even murderous race riots and anti Chinese mobs after Chinese labourers were favoured for being cheaper to hire. There was an unsaid policy to import Chinese labourers, coolies and slaves but no women less they start to breed. America is still known as 'Mei Guo' in China, the tongue-in-cheek reference to the 'Beautiful Country' as advertised to thousands of labourers, but who arrived to find themselves enslaved into building the railroads.


1800s San Francisco - whole generations of men never found wives due to a complete dearth of women (but resulted in high interracial marriages with Black women).


Last edited by muppet; Jan 12, 2017 at 9:17 AM.
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  #139  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 12:33 PM
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Another good example would be crime-free, peace loving Japan, also with its own long episodes of Buddhist harmony and sword wielding brutality from zen to Samuari. One prime example would be the Rape of Nanjing during WWII - how could one random army faction so completely partake in open crime, and the whole-hearted rape and murder of 400,000 civilians, that even shocked Japanese high command?

Iris Chang's unsettling book on the subject (she committed suicide a decade after its publication) points to how the formerly calm, respectful soldiers were themselves brutalised by their officers, made devoid of humanity and respect into hardened fighters - coming just after enduring a guerilla war in the Battle of Shanghai that took 300,000 lives. Nanjing - the ancient and de-facto capital - was intended as a lesson to the rest of China.

Likewise the lessons from history show how the Soviet army, fresh from liberating the concentration camps, could so commit the horrors of war such as the systematic mass rape of 200,000 Berliners (men, women and children) over 4 days. Or the hippy/ beat generation of idealised American soldiers could commit instances such as the My Lai massacre. A lot can be said about human nature, but one thing's clear - put people in certain positions, and crime becomes an option regardless of upbringing. Give it social acceptance and the gates fly open.

It is impossible to paint one people as inherently peace-loving or inherently criminal-minded/ impoverished. Just look at any of their histories.

Last edited by muppet; Jan 8, 2017 at 1:28 PM.
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  #140  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 5:31 PM
Flyers2001 Flyers2001 is offline
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
This is a massive cop out. I'm not dismissing the idea that a historical legacy of slavery (and much more recent discrimination and racism) affects the opportunities available to blacks in the US, but it doesn't justify higher crime rates (beyond the correlation with income levels).
It all goes back to one parent households.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...qrSEQmobjb3YQA

Quote:
Twenty five million children are growing up without fathers in the home. That’s 40%
of the kids in America. As reported by the Center for Children and Families:
➲ 40% of all live births in the US are to single mothers.
➲ 90% of welfare recipients are single mothers.
➲ 70% of gang members, high school dropouts, teen suicides, teen pregnancies
and teen substance abusers come from single mother homes.
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