New York’s Vanishing Diners

[pico44]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

You disagree with the facts?

Maybe in suburban Phoenix, where I assume you live, those are the facts, but not at truly good independent restaurants. This is the fundamental problem with the lifestyle you so forcefully defend and promote. You simply don't know any better.

[Crawford]

The same vendors have wildly different product lines. Pat LaFrieda meats delivers through some major vendors. Au Cheval uses Sysco, doesn't mean Au Cheval = Applebees.

[Illithid Dude]

NYC Diners serve a valuable purpose. I'm lucky enough to live next to one of the few left in Lower Manhattan, Cozy Soup and Burger on Broadway and Astor. The food isn't great, but the ability to quickly and cheaply order almost anything at any hour of the night (and day, I guess) supersedes any quality concerns.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

NYC Diners serve a valuable purpose. I'm lucky enough to live next to one of the few left in Lower Manhattan, Cozy Soup and Burger on Broadway and Astor. The food isn't great, but the ability to quickly and cheaply order almost anything at any hour of the night (and day, I guess) supersedes any quality concerns.

Then why do you tolerate it?

Americans (and Brits) place too little value on food and spend too little on it. As I said before, less than half as much as the Japanese relative to household income (which is why food in Japan is generally of higher quality).

Huge broad menus that offer a bit of everything are also a major red flag. If a restaurant tries to do everything then it will do nothing well (and I’m not just talking about places that serve both sushi and Chinese food, which might as well just be a giant sign that says “stay away!”). That is part of the problem with the classic diner, or its overpriced chain restaurant cousins like the Cheesecake Factory. On the other end of the spectrum, you have something like a taco cart that sells carnitas and only carnitas. That can offer something cheap, fast and delicious, because it focuses on doing one thing well.

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by 10023

Then why do you tolerate it?

Americans (and Brits) place too little value on food and spend too little on it. As I said before, less than half as much as the Japanese relative to household income (which is why food in Japan is generally of higher quality).

Huge broad menus that offer a bit of everything are also a major red flag. If a restaurant tries to do everything then it will do nothing well (and I’m not just talking about places that serve both sushi and Chinese food, which might as well just be a giant sign that says “stay away!”). That is part of the problem with the classic diner, or its overpriced chain restaurant cousins like the Cheesecake Factory. On the other end of the spectrum, you have something like a taco cart that sells carnitas and only carnitas. That can offer something cheap, fast and delicious, because it focuses on doing one thing well.

You are absolutely dead on about the overextended menu. The only caveat is that in some ethnic restos, the menus are longwinded and can deliver on the promise. Indian fare is of the extremely slow food variety as opposed to much of Chinese cooking, and those who do it well are to be commended for it. Legitimate Chinese joints will serve up an infinite number of variations on a theme, and as you say, as long as they stick to one or a few regional cuisines, I am happy to have an extensive list to choose from.

I have among my favorite restaurants, a little Vietnamese place in Montreal where the young lady chef, took over from her mother. She slashed the menu to a dozen items (she is sometimes alone in the kitchen) and her recipes are personal fusion dishes that are always fresh and peppy. She often asks her customers for advice and is very able. She even manages un-run-of-the-mill desserts on her lonesome...

All in all, yes, short menus are more desirable.

[the urban politician]

Agree on the overextended menu

When I see that, usually it means that they aren't spending time preparing diddly shit, and are usually just reheating some frozen crap made earlier

[10023]

Chinese restaurant menus can run to several pages because they have 40 variations of the same dish. You can get six kinds of stir fried green vegetable, and each of those can be ordered with garlic, ginger, soy, etc. And so low and behold that gives you 18 menu items but really just different greens with different sauces.

It also tends to be very fast cooking.

It would be like a burger place having a hamburger, and then a cheeseburger, and then a hamburger with bacon, and then a cheeseburger with bacon, and then all of the above adding mushrooms, and all of the above with onions, and so on.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

Then why do you tolerate it?

Because it's not terrible either. People go to these places knowing they are not Michelin rated but there's a trade off for convenience. Same reason why there's a demand for fast food.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by 10023

And this is a cultural problem.

There’s a reason that the general standard of food is higher in Japan than the US, and it is that the average Japanese family spends more than twice as high a percentage of their household income on food as the average American family. This is a cultural choice. And the result is American obesity, heart disease and other chronic conditions which are entirely self-inflicted.

Anyone can afford to spend more on food and less on other shit, and anyone can take time to cook instead of wasting it watching fucking Game of Thrones.


This is only partly true. The biggest costs for restaurants are food/ingredients and rent. Fixtures and furnishings are generally lower, unless you’re talking about very high end restaurants (there is one near me in London that spent £250k on a staircase). For two restaurants in the same location, with similar rent bills, what you pay for is what you get.

The same goes for food at home. Spend more on ingredients and you will taste the difference. You’ll also be healthier.

Sure, its true Japan and most other developed countries eat healthier than the US(which I never see politicians bring up when they compare our healthcare costs etc.) but you're leaving out an important part of the Japanese situation- tariffs. They protect their agricultural production like Trump wants to do, which raises prices.

It's not just culture, its government.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by 10023

Then why do you tolerate it?

Are you a liberal person who cries for the poor and forgotten in the world? If so, you know this question is stupid. Not everyone can AFFORD expensive food. You seem so disconnected from normal people you can't grasp this idea.

[10023]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Are you a liberal person who cries for the poor and forgotten in the world? If so, you know this question is stupid. Not everyone can AFFORD expensive food. You seem so disconnected from normal people you can't grasp this idea.

You can have good food that isn’t expensive. And you can have it quite easily if you have basic cooking skills. People claim to not have the time, but really they just waste lots of it on TV.

And as I’ve stated many times in this thread, Americans just choose to spend less of their income on food. I am allowed to criticize this choice, as with any lifestyle choice (like the ones that make someone obese).

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

Americans just choose to spend less of their income on food.

You don't have to spend a lot of money on food to eat good or eat healthy.

[10023]

Originally Posted by JManc

You don't have to spend a lot of money on food to eat good or eat healthy.

No you don’t, as I’ve just said above. But it does translate into generally lower quality across the food supply chain.

More than elsewhere in the world, Americans want value for money in terms of quantity rather than quality (that goes for many things from food to housing, by the way). Only in America does one see TV ads from chain restaurants that market on the basis of how much food you get for the price. The type of advertising you see from restaurants like Olive Garden, Red Lobster or Applebee’s would be completely alien to the rest of the world. You just don’t see it.

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by 10023

No you don’t, as I’ve just said above. But it does translate into generally lower quality across the food supply chain.

More than elsewhere in the world, Americans want value for money in terms of quantity rather than quality (that goes for many things from food to housing, by the way). Only in America does one see TV ads from chain restaurants that market on the basis of how much food you get for the price. The type of advertising you see from restaurants like Olive Garden, Red Lobster or Applebee’s would be completely alien to the rest of the world. You just don’t see it.

I only have streaming TV services these days, so I never see these ads. Who knew?? I have to admit that I've been to an Olive Garden or two over the years, most recently in 2014 or thereabouts. I'll even own up to liking their so called "bread sticks" and the salad dressing on the "endless salad". The salad dressing is now bottled and sold in super markets. It is one of my guilty pleasures. My bad.

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/ITQ4/red-lob...er-in-paradise

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/ok0T/applebe...by-barry-white

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/IIOs/olive-g...ian-generosity

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

No you don’t, as I’ve just said above. But it does translate into generally lower quality across the food supply chain.

More than elsewhere in the world, Americans want value for money in terms of quantity rather than quality (that goes for many things from food to housing, by the way). Only in America does one see TV ads from chain restaurants that market on the basis of how much food you get for the price. The type of advertising you see from restaurants like Olive Garden, Red Lobster or Applebee’s would be completely alien to the rest of the world. You just don’t see it.

Eating out for most of the world is a splurge and something done occasionally. Here, eating out is lifestyle and something many do several times a week and that gets expensive...especially if you have a family. Hence, it's something chains are keenly aware of and market accordingly. French restaurants are not going to advertise 'all you can eat' to a market that tends to prepare their meals at home are are more discriminating when they do go out. When I was a kid (80's) we were more like Europe with less casual and fast food joints and everyone was skinnier. Eating out was a special occasion and the food tended to be better. But we still had diners...

[the urban politician]

People eat out way too much in America.

In the last 10-15 years restaurants have sprouted everywhere. We have too many of them.

People need to eat home-prepared meals, and eat out maybe once a week as something special. Really bad for one's health.

[10023]

Originally Posted by JManc

Eating out for most of the world is a splurge and something done occasionally. Here, eating out is lifestyle and something many do several times a week and that gets expensive...especially if you have a family. Hence, it's something chains are keenly aware of and market accordingly. French restaurants are not going to advertise 'all you can eat' to a market that tends to prepare their meals at home are are more discriminating when they do go out. When I was a kid (80's) we were more like Europe with less casual and fast food joints and everyone was skinnier. Eating out was a special occasion and the food tended to be better. But we still had diners...

It is an occasional splurge for most of the world, but that’s not the appropriate comparison. The right comparison are the comparably affluent countries of Europe, where people these days do eat out a lot and food is not marketed on the basis of quantity. Even something like Wetherspoon’s (“Spoons”), a chain pub that basically serves the same niche as Applebee’s here (they have 900 locations), doesn’t do that.

[RCDC]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

They protect their agricultural production like Trump wants to do, which raises prices.

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Not everyone can AFFORD expensive food.

But whatever, you hate "Libs."

[RCDC]

Originally Posted by pico44

Maybe in suburban Phoenix, where I assume you live, those are the facts, but not at truly good independent restaurants. This is the fundamental problem with the lifestyle you so forcefully defend and promote. You simply don't know any better.

Probably thinks Outback > Sizzler.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

People eat out way too much in America.

In the last 10-15 years restaurants have sprouted everywhere. We have too many of them.

Its expensive too. Starts to add up, with two or three people in a family.