Gay Life in Canadian Cities

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by franktko

Generally, the people being elected represent the values of the people.

Precisely, and Calgary just so happens to have one of the most liberal and forward-thinking mayors in the country, if not the continent. He's not only beloved by most of the population, he was re-elected by an absolute landslide.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa nelly.

If we're using our own personal anecdotes of one-off happenings from decades ago - well then Winnipeg is by far the most socially conservative city in Canada. Gay bashings were incredibly common there in the late 80s/early 90s - to the point that it was often nightly news - and the justice system basically let the offenders off with a slap on the wrist. And I seem to recall Toronto experiencing a bunch of police raids on BDSM and other "risque" clubs about a decade ago (my timing might be off here).

I guess those 2 cities are even MORE socially conservative than Calgary, if that's the standard we're using here.

Your timing is off by about 3 decades. The bathhouse raids were actually the impetus for some of the more political aspects of the gay community in Canada. It's the people who organized at that point who probably had the greatest influence on stuff like the push for gay marriage and normalization of attitudes towards gay people in general.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by lio45

If we can civilly discuss this (and knowing you, freeweed, I'm sure we can)... then why not try to address your point...

From our point of view (and what's portrayed in the national media)... I'd offer at least...

1) tendency to dismiss global warming "theories" as baloney, way more than we do here

2) tendency to be more pro-life (with several Harper MPs voting for that fetal rights bill proposal a couple years ago)

3) tendency to want to "drill baby drill", regardless of the environmental cost (while here, we'd collectively rather be poorer if that's what it takes, but we prefer to not exploit our reserves of oil and gas)




and 4) (because why not) reports by the people I know who've lived in AB that the bars close earlier over there.

You are making a false equivalency. None of those things are representative of a conservative point of view and people who either are pro-choice, believe in global warming or want to conserve Earth's resources are not necessarily liberal or conservative although a lot of people who would self describe as liberal might.


There are other things that are far better indicators of conservatism.


Although generally when you find a person that dismisses the science of global warming you overwhelmingly find that they have little problem believing the world was created in 6 days and that there's a God that gives as big a shit as they do about what their neighbors are up to. (Again this doesn't really apply to Alberta)

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by freeweed

You guys really don't distinguish between the population and its elected officials, do you? Fascinating how we can cherry pick to suit our own prejudices.

I guess Montrealers are the most corrupt people in Canada, if that's how this is determined. And Quebecers are the most anti-Muslim.

I'm pretty sure we can confirm by now that Montrealers are the most corrupt people in Canada and Quebecers are, sadly, the most anti-muslin.

But, for a gay father like me, living on the Plateau in Montreal is just perfect. I have never, not even once, been the victim of homophobia of any form and my kids never had to feel marginalized for having a gay father and a lesbian mother. So there you go.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

I'm pretty sure we can confirm by now that Montrealers are the most corrupt people in Canada and Quebecers are, sadly, the most anti-muslin.

But, for a gay father like me, living on the Plateau in Montreal is just perfect. I have never, not even once, been the victim of homophobia of any form and my kids never had to feel marginalized for having a gay father and a lesbian mother. So there you go.

I suppose that you might say that in a sense Quebec is so far in gay-friendly territory that it begins to be noticeably anti-Muslim at that point...

It REALLY rubs us the wrong way that a number of modern interpretations of Islam condemn homosexuality...

[Doug_Cgy]

Originally Posted by franktko

That's not a smart assumption. People didn't get elected on the basis that they would setup a corruption ring, take bribes and pay inflated prices for goverment contracts. Just like Ford didn't get elected by saying he would smoke crack, party and make a fool of himself.

Generally, the people being elected represent the values of the people.

Now if Ford gets re-elected, then we can say that the people of Toronto don't care much about a drunk crack smoking classless dude running their city

Except here, the value *most* are voting for is our economy. It's not social issues. A majority of Calgarians didn't vote CPC because of their track record with gay rights/social issues, they voted CPC because that's the party that is the most vocally supportive of our industries.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by lio45

I suppose that you might say that in a sense Quebec is so far in gay-friendly territory that it begins to be noticeably anti-Muslim at that point...

It REALLY rubs us the wrong way that a number of modern interpretations of Islam condemn homosexuality...

Yeah, that's the thing about this charter debate in Quebec; a massive number of pro-charter persons are simply anti-religion and against, for exemple, the treatment of women in some (and I say some) muslim quarters. I'm personally very conflicted. Right now, I'm against the charter, for the simple reason that I am pro-freedom of choice, even though I profoundly hate all forms of religion. It's a very delicate debate and its hard to take a side.

[SignalHillHiker]

I have no idea how I'd vote about those sorts of things.

I have no interest in getting involved in a woman's decision to wear the hijab or any other sort of veil, as long as it's her decision. It's not a requirement here, which I of course support, and it's not illegal here, which I also support. The only thing that worries me is not knowing if these women are choosing it themselves or if they're being forced to by their families and communities. If they're not choosing it themselves, then my concern isn't really related to the veil at all - it's just saddening that they are Canadian citizens who are being denied some of the freedom that entails.

It's the same concern I have about families bringing over relatives who cannot speak English or French. Most of the time, I'm sure, it's harmless... but I wonder if there are men bringing over women who cannot interact with the wider society in order to keep them trapped, subservient, isolated. That, I couldn't support.

And feeling this way... how the hell is one supposed to vote or feel regarding any of these initiatives? They're all just as likely to be detrimental as advantageous.

[ssiguy]

The reality is that for most gay men, the ghettos are not only passé but even to a point an embarrassment.

They were needed at one time for security and being the only place you could find like minded people but as that is now history, people tend to avoid it. Much like China towns..........they were needed at one point but most more recent and modern Chinese wouldn't be caught dead there because they reinforce every stereotype as does the gay ghetto.

Most gay men deliberately avoid the gay ghettos because they are shockingly homogeneous.........the "I'm here, I'm queer" crap that is more annoying than anything else and all the classic "types" that you expect to see. This is why even in large ghettos, if you hang around for 2 weeks you will notice that you recognize nearly 90% of them and the other 10% are tourists. You will also notice how overwhelmingly white they are compared to the population in general.

They are still good for a Friday night for students or the very rare night out but for most gay men they are a relic of a different time. A place of nostalgia where you see all the gays together in just one spot just like in the olden days. A 20th century gay ghetto lifestyle in an accepting 21st century world.

[Chadillaccc]

I totally agree with that assessment, except that I wouldn't say the majority of gay men avoid it, I'd have to see a statistic first, but I would say a large amount wouldn't be caught dead in that scene. I couldn't stand the village in Toronto, and in Vancouver I really only went to a couple bars on Davie (Numbers and the sports bars)... back home in Ontario though, the only gay bars I ever enjoyed were Embassy in Hamilton, and Lavish in London. Here in Calgary, my go-to gay place is the Back Lot, would never be caught dead in Twisted (the only true gay dance club in the city, thankfully).

[dreambrother808]

Look at a Pride parade in Calgary or Edmonton versus Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal or Ottawa. Keep in mind that these numbers are often accused of being inflated.

Toronto - 1 million spectators
Vancouver - ½ million
Montreal - 320 thousand
Ottawa - 60 thousand
Calgary - 35 thousand
Edmonton - 30 thousand

There is a variation here not explained by per capita arguments. Look at Ottawa's numbers even, a city similar in size to Calgary and Edmonton. Having lived in Edmonton, Toronto, Montreal, and being a Vancouverite, my personal experience is that frankly, yes, Alberta is more conservative in general and that includes homophobia. This does not mean that Alberta is all of a sudden Russia, It's just not as liberal as these other parts of Canada, in general, in my experience.

[ue]

^ Like someone in the first few pages mentioned, there are plenty of things Alberta is incredibly liberal over. With regards to LGBT rights, is Alberta the most progressive province in Canada? Perhaps not. But there are things provinces often considered more progressive are more conservative with than Alberta.

Also, I don't really think it's fair to compare Toronto Pride to Calgary Pride. Toronto has a region of 6 million to draw from compared as well as plenty of other nearby cities (including across the border), compared to Calgary's 1 million pool. Toronto Pride is also the largest and most visible pride festival in the country. It's like asking which has the most attended rodeo, Calgary or Brooks, Alberta?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I suppose that you might say that in a sense Quebec is so far in gay-friendly territory that it begins to be noticeably anti-Muslim at that point...

It REALLY rubs us the wrong way that a number of modern interpretations of Islam condemn homosexuality...

I won't go so far as to say Quebec is very anti-muslim, but if Quebec does have more reservations about islam (especially the conservative side of it) than the rest of the country... and although pro-gay has something to do with it, I would say being pro-feminist and pro-sexual equality is a much bigger factor.

Women's rights and equality are huge societal dogmas in Quebec.

Now, most people in the ROC (including Alberta) are in favour of women's rights and gay rights too, but I would say there, that in the classic ROCer pursuit of the United Nations-Aga Khan-Bnai Brith-Gold Medal Award for Respect for Diversity and Openness to Other Cultures, many ROCers tend to pooh-pooh the not so-nice aspects of certain beliefs (islamic or others too) and label them "acceptable", even if they run contrary to their own beliefs.

In Quebec there is less room for compromise on these things, at least when it comes to the law and what you might call "wider society".

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Yeah, that's the thing about this charter debate in Quebec; a massive number of pro-charter persons are simply anti-religion and against, for exemple, the treatment of women in some (and I say some) muslim quarters. I'm personally very conflicted. Right now, I'm against the charter, for the simple reason that I am pro-freedom of choice, even though I profoundly hate all forms of religion. It's a very delicate debate and its hard to take a side.

Your sentiments (and they're SignalHillHiker's as well, as I could see) pretty much mirror mine, except that I'm not even sure I'm against the Charter.

In any case, though, I believe the people currently in the system need to be grandfathered in (I'm not alone -- heard Martine Desjardins yesterday pm on English CBC say the exact same thing) and I would also give us a number of years before it goes into effect, to make sure no one currently on a career path gets screwed. Basically, IMO even the strictest version possible (not saying I'm for it, just saying it's the absolute maximum that we should ever consider) should still only start to apply to the people currently in high school. At least they'd be fully informed from the beginning that if they absolutely insist on wearing a turban (or spaghetti strainer, or whatever they want) on their heads at all times then it's perfectly fine BUT it's incompatible with a number of State careers, so let them pick a career path knowing it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

"Brown", you're very wrong there.

"Muslim"... okay, but it's not really apples-to-apples, because Quebec has been exposed to some of the more radical Islam (through decades of French-speaking Maghreb immigration) in a way that I don't think is matched anywhere else in the country.

(Kinda like saying that whites in Sherbrooke QC are generally less anti-Chinese, in daily life, than whites in Richmond BC... sure, it might be true, but we don't really have any merit.)


We're more secular, that's correct, but an atheist with brown skin and an Arabic name would have pretty much the same chances as anyone. I'll grant you that being a practicing Muslim would raise some suspicion among certain classes here. I have no problem facing the facts.

In any event, comparing Nenshi in Calgary to small-town Quebec is just plain wrong anyway.

Nenshi was elected in a big and fairly diverse city. He also speaks, dresses and acts like your average native-born Calgarian and talks very little about his religion.

Though she is pretty fair-skinned, Fatima Houda-Pepin has represented the south shore of Montreal (Brossard area) in the National Assembly since 1994. She is Moroccan-born and muslim (until fairly recently, she talked about it about as much as Nenshi does, which is to say she did not hide it, but seldom raised it in public). She also speaks French with an obviously foreign accent, whereas Nenshi's accent is classic English Canadian. Her riding is probably 65-70% "French Canadian" with the rest made up of other origins. Again, not that dissimilar to Calgary in that it is mainly "old stock white" but with lots of minorities too.

So produce someone exactly like Nenshi but substitute French for English, and sure, he could get elected in Quebec.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I have no idea how I'd vote about those sorts of things.

I have no interest in getting involved in a woman's decision to wear the hijab or any other sort of veil, as long as it's her decision. It's not a requirement here, which I of course support, and it's not illegal here, which I also support. The only thing that worries me is not knowing if these women are choosing it themselves or if they're being forced to by their families and communities. If they're not choosing it themselves, then my concern isn't really related to the veil at all - it's just saddening that they are Canadian citizens who are being denied some of the freedom that entails.

It's the same concern I have about families bringing over relatives who cannot speak English or French. Most of the time, I'm sure, it's harmless... but I wonder if there are men bringing over women who cannot interact with the wider society in order to keep them trapped, subservient, isolated. That, I couldn't support.

And feeling this way... how the hell is one supposed to vote or feel regarding any of these initiatives? They're all just as likely to be detrimental as advantageous.

The age old "should we be tolerant of intolerance?" debate, basically.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Your sentiments (and they're SignalHillHiker's as well, as I could see) pretty much mirror mine, except that I'm not even sure I'm against the Charter.

In any case, though, I believe the people currently in the system need to be grandfathered in (I'm not alone -- heard Martine Desjardins yesterday pm on English CBC say the exact same thing)

Funny, I was listening to same program last night while chauffering my kids around to their activities.

And there were plenty of people in the room who are obviously vying for the United Nations-Aga Khan-Bnai Brith-Gold Medal Award for Respect for Diversity and Openness to Other Cultures I referred to earlier!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I won't go so far as to say Quebec is very anti-muslim...

"Very", no, of course not, but as I conceded to freeweed, it's the province I would end up naming if I absolutely had to pick a province to name as Canada's most anti-muslim one. (Out of curiosity, what would be your choice?)

Originally Posted by Acajack

In any event, comparing Nenshi in Calgary to small-town Quebec is just plain wrong anyway.

Nenshi was elected in a big and fairly diverse city. He also speaks, dresses and acts like your average native-born Calgarian and talks very little about his religion.

Though she is pretty fair-skinned, Fatima Houda-Pepin has represented the south shore of Montreal (Brossard area) in the National Assembly since 1994. She is Moroccan-born and muslim (until fairly recently, she talked about it about as much as Nenshi does, which is to say she did not hide it, but seldom raised it in public). She also speaks French with an obviously foreign accent, whereas Nenshi's accent is classic English Canadian. Her riding is probably 65-70% "French Canadian" with the rest made up of other origins. Again, not that dissimilar to Calgary in that it is mainly "old stock white" but with lots of minorities too.

So produce someone exactly like Nenshi but substitute French for English, and sure, he could get elected in Quebec.

Well, yes, obviously. I don't think anyone on this forum seriously doubted that a Nenshi would've easily been elected here for at least the last couple decades and even more.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Well, yes, obviously. I don't think anyone on this forum seriously doubted that a Nenshi would've easily been elected here for at least the last couple decades and even more.

I am not sure I understand what you mean.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

"Very", no, of course not, but as I conceded to freeweed, it's the province I would end up naming if I absolutely had to pick a province to name as Canada's most anti-muslim one. (Out of curiosity, what would be your choice?)

Based on what I know off the top of my head, probably Quebec too. (Although before actually finalizing my answer I would likely do a bit more research.)