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  #101  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 1:30 PM
Gerrard Gerrard is offline
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This thread is, of course, 'exhibit A' for why we can't have nice things.
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  #102  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 1:36 PM
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Are the Expos coming back or something? (sorry, I've been at big Boston Pizza in Gatineau pigging out)
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  #103  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by harls View Post
Are the Expos coming back or something? (sorry, I've been at big Boston Pizza in Gatineau pigging out)
Ha ha! Funny guy!
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  #104  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
This thread is, of course, 'exhibit A' for why we can't have nice things.
Please explain.
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  #105  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 2:05 PM
mr.John mr.John is offline
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Getting back to the topic.... this whole stupid rumour about the Expos returning was started by an ex announcer named Roger Brulotte who claims (after downing a bottle of JD I'm sure) that he was approached by a group of (non existant ) business men about the possibility of bring back baseball to Montreal. Yeah Roger the city is full of deranged billionaires willing to piss away 700 million to get back a sport that failed miserably the first time around...have another drink Roger
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  #106  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 2:37 PM
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i wish we weren't like this.

we remind me of a troubled couple on a long car trip. it's like, everyone (both people and groups of people such as cities or provinces) has their little vanities, their little identities and conceits. they often have a grain of truth (montreal and quebec do take cultural cues from france, toronto does offer an incredibly multifaceted human experience), but as we get older, you know, sometimes we depend on them a bit to much, or perhaps exaggerate their appeal.

among friends, in a convivial setting, these are generally forgiven and even appreciated. "oh, you know, tom's always considered himself bit of a wine... buff (insert half-smirk)."

among people who are tired of each other, however, they grate and grind and are resented. to your loser husband with his failed schemes and maxed visas, you won't give an inch concerning his self-identification as an "entrepreneur." to your flitty wife, with her dubious accent and grating expressions, you won't grant even a layer of "bohemian charm."

fucking canada, eh?
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  #107  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
But when did I say one was better? I actually said the exact opposite, didn't I?
I know you didn't say it, but I'm just trying to point out and understand this whole Canadian mentality that one way is better then the other way and that there city does it best.
This whole Europe obsession has to stop, but I'm starting to believe this is what it means to be Canadian. Drool over the old world as if it's something exotic.
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  #108  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by telyou View Post
This whole Europe obsession has to stop, but I'm starting to believe this is what it means to be Canadian. Drool over the old world as if it's something exotic.
The European obsession, in my view, is not really something you find across Canada. Only in certain parts of the country.

The European obsession is very present on this forum (in a somewhat skewed, cross-Canada way) mainly because it is populated by city-lovers and that European cities tend to be more vibrant and aesthetically attractive than North American ones.

But out there on the streets on the whole most parts of Canada are not obsessed or envious of all things European (mostly indifferent to be quite honest), and if anything in most places it's really the U.S. that people have this type of (love/hate/envy) relationship with.
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  #109  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 6:02 PM
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I don't think a baseball team makes a city vibrant, it's simply not a very vibrant sport. More anti-vibrant. Baseball cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Houston etc. aren't what I would consider as particularly vibrant cities, but if 20,000 people or so would pop down to games that would be OK.
I disagree with with the "baseball cities" point you make. The cities in the US where baseball is most popular are New York, Boston, Philly, San Francisco and LA. These are some of the most "vibrant" cities in North America. I'm not saying that baseball leads to vibrancy - simply an observation.

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The more entertainment options the better. I do think it would be a tough sell however in a city where there are 5 festivals occurring at any given time all summer long, though I'd probably hit up a couple of games on a Monday or Tuesday night.
I certainly agree with you here, nothing wrong with having more entertainment options. Another point to be made is that while the Expos were in town, fans never had a true ballpark experience. Going to a game at the cavernous, indoor Big O was really only half the experience of going to a game at Fenway or even a new park like Safeco field. Nothing like relaxing in the stands on a sunny afternoon drinking some ice cold beers. Fans in Montreal didn't really have this option since the days of Jarry Park, and I believe that many casual fans stayed away because of it. Also, the Expos had their best attendance (above leauge average) in the early 80s before the stadium roof was completed.

The stadium was/is really the key issue holding back MLB in Montreal.
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  #110  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 8:25 PM
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People don't understand how BIG the stadium is to baseball. This is why during the last Stadium boom MLB teams paid very much to the little details of their parks. Montreal was lacking a true park and it payed deeply for it. True baseball fans know that the experience of MLB is always better in person. People always complain about baseball until they go to a game live and sip a cold one under the summer sun, there is no better way to spend a afternoon or evening night.

Montreal is the quirky, eccentric city in which baseball would thrive in. A fenway-PNC-Pac Bell(whatever the name is now) Styled park in MTL would do wonders, many would go to the games just for the experience.
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  #111  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by artvandelay View Post
The stadium was/is really the key issue holding back MLB in Montreal.
I wonder in a new ballpark in Toronto would bring more fans out to games?

I've been to a handful of ball parks including the Old Yankee Stadium... and I have to say I enjoyed the experience at the newer places like Minute Maid & Safeco much more!
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  #112  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 8:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The European obsession is very present on this forum (in a somewhat skewed, cross-Canada way) mainly because it is populated by city-lovers and that European cities tend to be more vibrant and aesthetically attractive than North American ones.
I guess this is more of a "grass is greener on the other side". Canadians don't generally notice how lucky they are. Btw, imo Frankfurt is the least vibrant city and Sydney is the most vibrant. Thus, not all of Europe should be characterized the same way.


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Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown View Post
I wonder in a new ballpark in Toronto would bring more fans out to games?

I've been to a handful of ball parks including the Old Yankee Stadium... and I have to say I enjoyed the experience at the newer places like Minute Maid & Safeco much more!
Well the Jays are averaging 23-24,000 fans this year and a few years ago had just under 30,000. The Expos never hit the 30 mark and the last time they had attendance higher then 23,000/game was in 1983.
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  #113  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 9:26 PM
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Originally Posted by telyou View Post
I guess this is more of a "grass is greener on the other side". Canadians don't generally notice how lucky they are. Btw, imo Frankfurt is the least vibrant city and Sydney is the most vibrant. Thus, not all of Europe should be characterized the same way.



.
Sydney is most vibrant compared to what?!?!
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  #114  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 9:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown View Post
I wonder in a new ballpark in Toronto would bring more fans out to games?

I've been to a handful of ball parks including the Old Yankee Stadium... and I have to say I enjoyed the experience at the newer places like Minute Maid & Safeco much more!
Interesting question... Rogers Centre isnt bad, but it still has the feel of a multi-purpose park. My main complaint with that place is the heavy-handed security. Last fall when I was there they threatened to kick out a guy in my section who was heckling the outfielder - which is pretty normal at a ballgame. Of the ballparks I've been to, I would rate them as follows:

1. Fenway - a bare bones park, but the nostaglia and atmosphere is amazing
2. Safeco - an awesome modern retro stadium, has all the luxuries, great food selection, amazing sightlines
.
.
.
3. Skydome
4. Big O

I think the main reason for the Jays attendance woes is the fickle nature of the Toronto sports market. The Leafs are always number 1, and it seems like one other team is the flavour of the month at a given time. Right now it's TFC, before that it was the Raptors, the Jays in the early 90s, Argos in the 80s and so on. I think that the Jays are on the right track again, Anthoupolous is doing a great job setting up for a pennant run next season or the year after - which will do the most to bring more fans down.
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  #115  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 9:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
No they do, but they do it in a non Americanized, culturally superior and more vibrant way!
So they do it bear style with their hands and mouths?
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  #116  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Montreal cuisine is more Québécois than anything else in that it tends to be more deeply rooted in its local environment. It also does blend in international trends (giving them a local twist) that you would find present in Toronto and Vancouver, two cities where the international scene tends to totally dominate over anything local. Which approach is better is a matter of personal opinion, I guess.
In other words, my post was correct

Montreal cuisine is more Canadian than Toronto/Vancouver
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  #117  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
You seem to think that Toronto and Vancouver are bigger soccer cities simply because they got MLS clubs before Montreal.

As far as Toronto is concerned, before Toronto FC came along the Toronto Lynx played in the A-League and the USL and their attendance totally sucked. It was the worst in the league many years (average of 2,000 per game sometimes). Whereas Montreal's attendance was near the top of the league most years (10,000+) and remains pretty good to this day.

Also, I am not sure that Toronto could draw 55,000 to a Concacaf Champions League game for a second-division club like Montreal did a year or so ago.

International friendlies played in Montreal also consistently draw better than those played in Toronto at Rogers Centre. The 2007 U20 World Cup drew extremely well at the Big O but this is not a fair comparison for Toronto as the venue there was the much smaller BMO Field.

Now, I am not saying that Montreal is a BETTER soccer city that Toronto (or Vancouver), but is certainly every bit as good as the other two.

This will become very clear once L'Impact enters the MLS.
I dunno, look at Whitecaps crowds in Vancouver. Pretty solid

Vancouver also has the longest tradition of supporting soccer, much longer than Montreal. And in all three cities the "Europeanness" of the game doesn't have much bearing on how well the sport would do. Otherwise, handball, rugby etc. would be popular in Montreal as well.
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  #118  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
When I mentioned the word "European", I wasn't talking about actual immigrants, I was talking about the overall culture. That said, I don't know much about Quebec and I was just throwing it out there.

For example, one of the reasons why baseball is big in Windsor is because of our "American" culture. Going to a Tigers game on a weekend afternoon in summer is a popular family activity.
Montreal doesn't have any more of a "European" culture than Toronto or Vancouver
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  #119  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 10:38 PM
go_leafs_go02 go_leafs_go02 is offline
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Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan View Post
I dunno, look at Whitecaps crowds in Vancouver. Pretty solid

Vancouver also has the longest tradition of supporting soccer, much longer than Montreal. And in all three cities the "Europeanness" of the game doesn't have much bearing on how well the sport would do. Otherwise, handball, rugby etc. would be popular in Montreal as well.
Whitecaps will be drawing flies in the next few years if they don't get their act together. Vancouver is a huge bandwagon City. Heck, the Canucks were averaging 14,000 in the late 1990s to home games.

Toronto on the other hand, does reasonably well in supporting their team. Imagine if Boston or New York had the same record as the Jays did in the AL East. I don't think they'd be doing that well either in terms of attendance if each year resulted in 3 or 4th place in the division (when it could easily be 2nd if they were in the AL Central or AL West).

Either way, I hope Montreal gets baseball back, but a new stadium must be in the works before that happens. Big O could work for 2 -3 years while the new place is constructed, but I don't see any of that happening in the next 5 to 10 years.
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  #120  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by telyou View Post
But why does one have to be better?
Is it that hard for Canadians to acknowledge another city?

And how did a conversation about the expos turn into soccer?
Like Acajack said, it's personal opinion.
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